Patch 5.2 Warlock discussion

[Ezzyo]

Parses don't show what a spec can do, nor will they have any semblance of reliability going into future gear and how specs scale with it. You're making assertions based on napkin maths and guessitamations.

A rank 3 parse on a fight that is nothing but single target doesn't show what a single target spec can do? Future gear and scaling has nothing to do with the initial release of where a spec will be, so a player that is at a 515 ilvl as is the one I linked will have gear that will last for a short bit longer, especially for more average based numbers (you might have missed this, but stat weights are still valid for people in the 480 area due to lfr) the player I linked will be that LFR area for the majority.

Hey, that parse I linked also didn't show how destro will do in the next expansion. But you're right, simcraft doesn't run simulations and large sample size combination of high ranking parses by elite players isn't a simulation that can have a mean derived from it. Nope.

I really don't like how you make me come off as so sarcastic by being so stubbornly wrong.

edit: like every single post wrong. Seriously, I need to leave.

edit final note: That's the third time I've seen you call out a player making "assertions" and in my case and one other I glanced at, neither of us made any sort of assertion. If looking at actual >>numbers<< and magically beaming them into 5.2 land with the same spec is a guestimation, I'd love to see your opinion on what constitutes as more solid. But then you'd have to post a number you found yourself, or anything really, something in all of your posts that you have failed to do. You've really contributed nothing beyond getting responses of informing you why you're wrong by asking questions that don't need to be asked for reasons I will never understand. Good day though!

[Shauni]

Seriously Ezzo I'm with Jessicka. Using your personnal experience and claiming it to be the truth is generally a BAD idea.

[Ezzyo]

Seriously Ezzo I'm with Jessicka. Using your personnal experience and claiming it to be the truth is generally a BAD idea.

Where did I link "my personal experience"? Where did I claim any sort of truth other than a direction that can be taken? Would you like me to link 1000 parses or "iterations" compiled from the top 200 on any sort of patchwerk fight? Because that would be more accurate than anything simcraft would put out barring any sort of padding mechanic. Hey look, I asserted something finally.

[Jessicka]

Hey, that parse I linked also didn't show how destro will do in the next expansion. But you're right, simcraft doesn't run simulations and large sample size combination of high ranking parses by elite players isn't a simulation that can have a mean derived from it. Nope.

But you just said, right here for the second time:

If by works you mean not understand how to update dots, when to chaos bolt, how to spend fury, or manage cooldowns then yes, simcraft works.

Except people that have two eyes and play their character.

So simcraft doesn't work when using 10k+ itterations (or is it? Not sure if sarcastic), but using one guy's parse, which is a statistical outlier from good RNG is a valid place to draw conclusions and extrapolate from?

[EvreliaGaming]

Can everyone just sit back and chill out? There's no need to throw personal remarks around.

[Kuroto]

Yeah, it is insane to pick a pet class, then whine about having a pet. It's also insane that the same people who whined about GC commenting on the complexity of certain specs, are then DEMANDING that the easier, better QoL talent option for their own spec be the 'go to' choice.

GoSac is a QoL improvement yes, but not easier, that just isn't true. GoSac moves the damage from the pet to the player, and as such is dependent on the player's performance to get the maximum benefit, how well you react to trinket procs, resource gain and fight mechanics. Since MoP, a pet is just something you stick on a target (usually with a macro) and always get the same benefit, regardless of how your own performance is. This lack of interaction with Affliction and Destruction is what they need to fix, but unfortunately it's not a simple numbers issue, so it's not going to be for this patch at least.

[Ezzyo]

But you just said, right here for the second time:


So simcraft doesn't work when using 10k+ itterations (or is it? Not sure if sarcastic), but using one guy's parse, which is a statistical outlier from good RNG is a valid place to draw conclusions and extrapolate from?

Now do this all 10000 more times and you have made it.

There I can post something a second time too. That statistical outlier for good rng also is wrong if you actually look at the expression editor as well. Two things wrong in one sentence! He obtains roughly the same number of haunts that most do in that time period. Are you going to continue defending iterations from the worst warlock in the world? (Room for a burn here, but I'm referring to simcraft's rotation).

[Netherspark]

Whoever said it was intended to make Sac useless? They have clearly have data that suggests Warlocks want to use pets, so they want to make the talents that support pets good. That doesn't equate to making Sac useless.

Blizzard have said several times they think all Warlocks should be using pets. Ghostcrawler even suggested that GoSac should be a DPS loss and has openly disparaged it on numerous occasions.

It is Blizzard's design intent that Warlocks are pet classes and so are supposed to be using pets, not Sacrificing them for convinence. It's not so much the players that want to use pets (although that is part of the issue), but it's mainly Blizzard who want us to use pets.

They don't want to make Sacrifice "useless" persay, but they DO want to make it something that you very rarely choose, if ever - that involves making it a worse talent than Supremacy and Service, effectively making it "useless".

Put simply: Blizzard don't like Grimoire of Sacrifice and they want it to go away.

[Shauni]

Can everyone just sit back and chill out? There's no need to throw personal remarks around.

I agree, it's becoming out of hand. We should not start overheating over some experiment blizzard is throwing at us on PTR. This discution will have meanings if we are send to the ground on live but I highly doubt it will happend.

[xskarma]

Room for a burn here

Yeah, let's not go there, cause that kind of thing would probably get you infracted.


Let's keep the discussion about facts and not about WHO is making the argument. There's rarely a need for that, especially not outside of the political discussion on this forum.

[Deleted]

If Blizzard are so hellbent on us using pets, maybe they should take a look at why a lot of us DONT want to use pets. i.e. They're bloody useless with a horrible AI.

[Jessicka]

Now do this all 10000 more times and you have made it.

There I can post something a second time too. That statistical outlier for good rng also is wrong if you actually look at the expression editor as well. Two things wrong in one sentence! He obtains roughly the same number of haunts that most do in that time period. Are you going to continue defending iterations from the worst warlock in the world? (Room for a burn here, but I'm referring to simcraft's rotation).

Adding the same multiplier to the same spells from the same parse 10k times and expecting different results is, to paraphrase Einstein, madness.

I'm not defending simcraft at all, but you seem to be in one post using it to support you, and in the next deriding it.

GoSac is a QoL improvement yes, but not easier, that just isn't true. GoSac moves the damage from the pet to the player, and as such is dependent on the player's performance to get the maximum benefit, how well you react to trinket procs, resource gain and fight mechanics. Since MoP, a pet is just something you stick on a target (usually with a macro) and always get the same benefit, regardless of how your own performance is. This lack of interaction with Affliction and Destruction is what they need to fix, but unfortunately it's not a simple numbers issue, so it's not going to be for this patch at least.

Except I read through this thread, on twitter, on the official forums, that the #1 reason people don't want to use their pet is because it is HARD, because it requires MANAGEMENT. They like Sac because it's efficient. Never does anyone say it because of wanting the challenge.

Blizzard have said several times they think all Warlocks should be using pets. Ghostcrawler even suggested that GoSac should be a DPS loss and has openly disparaged it on numerous occasions.

It is Blizzard's design intent that Warlocks are pet classes and so are supposed to be using pets, not Sacrificing them for convinence. It's not so much the players that want to use pets (although that is part of the issue), but it's mainly Blizzard who want us to use pets.

They don't want to make Sacrifice "useless" persay, but they DO want to make it something that you very rarely choose, if ever - that involves making it a worse talent than Supremacy and Service, effectively making it "useless".

Put simply: Blizzard don't like Grimoire of Sacrifice and they want it to go away.

Yeah, he said it should be a minor loss on the basis of a QoL improvement. It doesn't make sense when someone is asking for Sac to be better because it's easier, because it's doubly disuading people from using pets, both because it's a DPS loss and because of [gross overstatements] of pet difficulties.

[Ezzyo]

If Blizzard are so hellbent on us using pets, maybe they should take a look at why a lot of us DONT want to use pets. i.e. They're bloody useless with a horrible AI.

I've rarely had issues with pets this tier outside of heroic protectors? Then again, I haven't used the pets too much this tier. In regards to "useless", the dps from an imps firebolt alone is around the 16-17k mark in my current ilvl. The serviced imp is hitting 24k dps over it's duration. The difference is not that much.

[Hatelocker]

Blizzard have said several times they think all Warlocks should be using pets. Ghostcrawler even suggested that GoSac should be a DPS loss and has openly disparaged it on numerous occasions.

It is Blizzard's design intent that Warlocks are pet classes and so are supposed to be using pets, not Sacrificing them for convinence. It's not so much the players that want to use pets (although that is part of the issue), but it's mainly Blizzard who want us to use pets.

They don't want to make Sacrifice "useless" persay, but they DO want to make it something that you very rarely choose, if ever - that involves making it a worse talent than Supremacy and Service, effectively making it "useless".

Put simply: Blizzard don't like Grimoire of Sacrifice and they want it to go away.

I don't think they want it to go away but they want it to be rare. Imho they want it to be used in 2 instances.
1) Bugged fight like elegon (i.e. their programming is broken so at least we get some compensation for them making our pets useless)
2) People who flat out do not like pets and are willing to lose dps in every situation. I would be willing to bet that if GC could tune it perfectly it would always be only a slight dps decrease - say 5% less than the optimal choice so a casual can use it without too much grief but that it never maths out to be optimal.

[xskarma]

If Blizzard are so hellbent on us using pets, maybe they should take a look at why a lot of us DONT want to use pets. i.e. They're bloody useless with a horrible AI.

There's no 100% evidence either way, but it's safe to say most of us have complained about our pets at some point, BUT we have also still played our class, so I don't think people just played Sacrifice to be rid of the pet. They (we!) played it cause the DPS was higher, and the fact it was petless was only the cherrie on the cake.

Now that Blizz is forcing us back to pets we get confronted with those pet issues again. I think the problem people have with pets is 1) lack of control i.e. it will sometimes not do what we want, or do waht we don't want it to do. 2) environment problems 3) damage problems in the sense of buffs not transferring to our pet ( the new fight with all the weird buffs and transforming is most likely going to be a good example of that)

I think it's unrealistic to expect all those problems to never exist again. For good or for bad it's part of our class as long as we have pets. I think though Blizz will (or should more like) balance the Sacrifice option so that it would perform better then using either other Grimoire when our pets let us down. If that's the case then I'm satisfied, cause the talent will then have a clear function and upside.

[Grizelda]

I wonder how quick changes will be implemented when pet problems crop up. Or will we get the deaf ear again?

[Deleted]

they could make sacrifice a burst aoe talent, something like service. making the sacrifice only temporary.

[Ezzyo]

Now that Blizz is forcing us back to pets we get confronted with those pet issues again. I think the problem people have with pets is 1) lack of control i.e. it will sometimes not do what we want, or do waht we don't want it to do. 2) environment problems 3) damage problems in the sense of buffs not transferring to our pet ( the new fight with all the weird buffs and transforming is most likely going to be a good example of that)

What destro and aff need is a form of demonic rebirth that demo is privy to. After doing all the challenge modes again as demo and losing my fg a few times on aoe packs, I was making use of that quite a bit. A shard is a tad harsh of a penalty for unavoidable damage that kills the pet though (assuming they aren't fixed in the release build). Also, the armor and hp could be increased for the pets outside of the fg to make sac more attractive / surv boosted in lieu of the fel armor change.

[Deleted]

just add an option to the pet so that you "bind" to another CAC player then make it to follow the path the player follows (adjusting speed accordingly) so the pet reproduce the target attacks and movement of another player .. !

anyway, anyone know when simC release officially the sims ?

[Grizelda]

they could make sacrifice a burst aoe talent, something like service. making the sacrifice only temporary.

But then what's the use of the talent? Fights where your pet is only a temporary liability? "This is when the little bugger keeps targeting the mob that will wipe the raid if touched!" Could happen I suppose.

I'd rather just see it balanced as is.