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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    I know how it works. I played a Priest in DS HC and it was pretty boring, hence why I swapped.

    Anyone who raids with a Disc Priest knows how utterly ridiculous they are at the moment, and the fact they're receiving the smallest nerfs ever is quite laughable. Let's take a look at history:

    Sunwell > Shaman dominance? Dealt with in WotLK
    LK HC > Disc dominance? Dealt with in Cata
    FL HC > Druid dominance? Dealt with in DS
    DS HC > Paladin dominance? Dealt with in MoP
    T14 HC > Monk dominance? Dealt with in 5.1
    T14 v2 > Disc dominance? ???????????????????????????
    According to this timeline, this should have been holy priests time to shine, but as usual they are being ignored.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    I know how it works. I played a Priest in DS HC and it was pretty boring, hence why I swapped.
    You have proven in post after post that you have no clue about this, if I actually thought proving you wrong a tenth time would result in you leaving this forum I'd go dig up all your other ignorant/incorrect posts but you should already be aware of them.

  3. #143
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blachshma View Post
    According to this timeline, this should have been holy priests time to shine, but as usual they are being ignored.
    Holy Priests were the best in much of Vanilla, were the best for much of TBC, and by BT / SWP they were far and away better than everyone (even Shamans, who were good, but not as good as a well played holy priest).

    Disc wasn't actually the best in Dragon Soul fyi. The reason why Disc was mandatory was because by stacking int (their best regen stat) and spamming shields on everyone in the raid they could remove a fight mechanic that would otherwise leave all your healers almost OOM by the end of Phase 1 (and the transitions were no good time to stop healing the tanks, so thats a problem) - that made Disc mandatory for one fight: the rest of the tier Disc was competitive, but nothing special.

    The reason Disc is doing so well right now is that Blizzard shifted its plan for raid damage to "rather than making the raid take constant passive big damage all fight, lets make big spikes of damage that healers need to respond to with cooldowns and raid members may need to coordinate and use their support healing or raid damage reduction cooldowns - that's good for teamwork!" - what I don't think they really considered was that Discs emphasis on shielding allows them to start healing the damage spike 15 seconds before the other healers can. I don't think the next tier will be so raid-damage-bursty, and that's bad news for Discs strength right now, because when the raid goes back to random people taking damage spikes, discs lack of smart heals are going to wreck it (while things like CoH and Chain Heal and Wild Growth will dominate). Disc is fine.
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  4. #144
    Disc is not fine fyi and the people that cannot see this are amusing at best, atm disc is better than any other healer on ANY kind of damage doesn't matter if it's constant,bursty or whatever else and i'll give you a very easy example on this specific tier: Garalon. In fact i challenge you to show me a single fight where disc isn't the best spec or among the best.
    In this fight there is constant raid damage that increases over time and there are crushes (slightly bursty), yet disc priests are miles ahead of everyone else even on these kind of fights, you would expect a non-absorb healer to actually pull ahead here since you know there's constant damage on everyone except that ain't happening unless you count pre-5.1 mistweavers which is the only occassion it actually did. The reason this is happening is very simple, overpowered absorbs that can absorb entire health pools if done correctly plus very good cooldowns and infinite mana because rapture is not very well thought out from blizzard's part.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Isheria View Post
    Disc is not fine fyi and the people that cannot see this are amusing at best, atm disc is better than any other healer on ANY kind of damage doesn't matter if it's constant,bursty or whatever else and i'll give you a very easy example on this specific tier: Garalon. In fact i challenge you to show me a single fight where disc isn't the best spec or among the best.
    In this fight there is constant raid damage that increases over time and there are crushes (slightly bursty), yet disc priests are miles ahead of everyone else even on these kind of fights, you would expect a non-absorb healer to actually pull ahead here since you know there's constant damage on everyone except that ain't happening unless you count pre-5.1 mistweavers which is the only occassion it actually did. The reason this is happening is very simple, overpowered absorbs that can absorb entire health pools if done correctly plus very good cooldowns and infinite mana because rapture is not very well thought out from blizzard's part.
    I agree. And actually it's kind of getting on my nerves always hearing from other players how unfair disc is.

  6. #146
    Deverka pointed out how deconstructive this thread was, and he's right. Everyone, including myself, needs to take a step back and breath. PvP and PvE thoughts are all in here - and patch notes affect both.

    Here are the facts:

    Disc, after the 5.2 nerfs, is pretty balanced in PvE. Both nerfs were warranted; Rapture was buffed incorrectly; it will be a problem in later tiers, and does NOTHING for holy, who is also struggling. That said, Disc in PvP isn't competitive in PvP(Similar to Mistweavers) due to mana constraints, and Rapture buff will help a bit in PvP. Really, they should revert Rapture at 200%, and cut priest mana costs to boost their effective mana. But if they do revert Rapture without increasing Priest regen, the class becomes (Remains, really) completely broken in PvP.

    TLDR: Developers tried a very bad fix. Incompetent when it comes to Priests, as always.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    Deverka pointed out how deconstructive this thread was, and he's right. Everyone, including myself, needs to take a step back and breath. PvP and PvE thoughts are all in here - and patch notes affect both.

    Here are the facts:

    Disc, after the 5.2 nerfs, is pretty balanced in PvE. Both nerfs were warranted; Rapture was buffed incorrectly; it will be a problem in later tiers, and does NOTHING for holy, who is also struggling. That said, Disc in PvP isn't competitive in PvP(Similar to Mistweavers) due to mana constraints, and Rapture buff will help a bit in PvP. Really, they should revert Rapture at 200%, and cut priest mana costs to boost their effective mana. But if they do revert Rapture without increasing Priest regen, the class becomes (Remains, really) completely broken in PvP.

    TLDR: Developers tried a very bad fix. Incompetent when it comes to Priests, as always.
    Are you silly?

    Disc Priests have the cheapest mana cost of any healer. The new Rapture is a complete wash (this means i'll make 0 difference) if you use Rapture 2 or 3 more times every 3 minutes (and I promise you, no Priest procs Rapture every 12 seconds perfectly). The SS 'nerf' is nothing more than a 3-5% overall throughput nerf. The nerfs, simply, are not enough.

  8. #148
    High Overlord Whicker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    Are you silly?

    Disc Priests have the cheapest mana cost of any healer. The new Rapture is a complete wash (this means i'll make 0 difference) if you use Rapture 2 or 3 more times every 3 minutes (and I promise you, no Priest procs Rapture every 12 seconds perfectly). The SS 'nerf' is nothing more than a 3-5% overall throughput nerf. The nerfs, simply, are not enough.
    I can't wait to see you get sat for 3 disc priests in 5.2 lol

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Whicker View Post
    I can't wait to see you get sat for 3 disc priests in 5.2 lol
    We already use 3 Disc Priests. Mostly I think most guilds will use(judging from the current notes):

    2 Pallies
    2 Discs
    2 Resto Shaman
    2 Mistweaver

    No fight will ever need more than 8 healers, and of course most mains have 2-3 alts in sick gear. Bringing a Resto Druid (lol they got no buffs, how disturbing) is just a waste at the moment. Taking any non-absorption class unless they have insane raid CDs (like a Resto Shaman) is an utter waste too if you ask me. My optimum healer setup would be:

    2 Pallies
    3 Priests
    1 Mistweaver
    2 Resto Shaman
    Last edited by HamSandwichFace; 2012-12-28 at 08:52 AM.

  10. #150
    It's kinda funny that Shells can stack, making it a ~200k shield per Priest, which means 400-600k shaved of major ability every minute. That's something they should think about. Sure, 2+ Priests might have some issues getting Rapture procs, but it's more than made up by their absorb potential and 5.2 doesn't really do that much to counter it. Unless healing pattern change drastically and boss abilities become hugely randomized, Shell will still be absurdly strong tool, barely affected by 5.2 changes.

  11. #151
    This is a good post. Varda, I wonder, what would happen if Rapture was just a passive which gave you a free PW:S every 10 seconds instead? At the moment Disc has 4 ways of regenerating mana compared to Shaman (3), Paladins (2), Druids (2), Monks (2) and Holy Priests (3). Does Disc really need 4 ways of regenerating mana or is it time for a complete redesign on Rapture to allow the Priest to use PW:S, for free, every 10 seconds (and for PVP purposes lets say it ignores Weakened Soul) and have Disc with 3 ways of regenerating mana.
    I've seen you stating this thing about disc having more ways to recover mana so correct me if I'm wrong:
    Shamans: water shield, manatide (raid cd, guaranteed to all healers), a possible 3rd by glyphing lightning bolt (agree not amazing); I also recall something about getting mana back from crit heals but very unsure of that part.
    Paladins: divine plea, a free resource (holy power), seal of insight (mana on meleeing - not sure if that ones is still there, I didnt play my pala in mop).
    Monks: mana tea, a free resource (chi)
    Druids: innervate, clearcasting, they used to have a talent that was giving them a proc chance to restore mana on certain hot ticks - but I dont think they have it anymore
    Priests discipline: rapture, shadowfiend, hymn of hope. Hymn of hope is on a large cd, and is not guaranteed to restore any mana to the priest that casts it, since unlike shamans mana tide, it picks lowest mana targets and restores ticks. Sure a smart priest will use it when he is very low on mana so hes guaranteed to get atleast a tick, but it is not a priest only mana restoring mechanic.
    Priests holy: shadowfiend, hymn of hope.

    I assume you counted the 4th for disc as being meditation, which I didnt, as its baseline for all healers.

    From here, my personal opinion is that holy priests drew the short straw. Regarding disc regen being higher, I think you should also take into consideration the importance of aoe healing and especially aoe smart healing. To this day, disc is the only class in game with no aoe smart healing. No, cascade doesnt count as "smart" since it chooses targets based on distance, not based on % of hp.

    I'm not saying disc is underpowered, nor am I denying how strong the absorbs are. I also think the buff to aegis was not necessary, it was fine at 30%. I still think most ppl here that comment on the specc are very vaguely aware of the mechanics behind it and how easy it is to break. I think all these buffs (ludicrous tbh for a specc that was considered "fine" after a large populated beta) were basically band-aids to take it out of the gutter it really was. Disc healing has been made to be a brute beast via sheer numbers, but its unfinished and lacking in mechanics.

    In this fight there is constant raid damage that increases over time and there are crushes (slightly bursty), yet disc priests are miles ahead of everyone else even on these kind of fights, you would expect a non-absorb healer to actually pull ahead here since you know there's constant damage on everyone except that ain't happening unless you count pre-5.1 mistweavers which is the only occassion it actually did. The reason this is happening is very simple, overpowered absorbs that can absorb entire health pools if done correctly plus very good cooldowns and infinite mana because rapture is not very well thought out from blizzard's part.
    Why would you think disc is unsuited for a fight like garalon? On the contrary, its very suited: raid wide constant dmg to be soaked via aegis, and a fairly stacked raid to make poh work close to its best. The spikes are often enough to make the best out of spirit shell. A fight unsuited for disc would be random aoe dmg - but as it is, heart of fear has little of that (I cant really think of any from the top of my head). Mogushan was a bit more like that in the start, and nobody even noticed how op spirit shell was in the start of the expansion. We needed HoF for it to shine. I personally tried to play disc at the beginning of the expansion (its been my ms for a long time) and it just wasnt cutting it. Too unpredictable. I did have much better results as holy and I am a very rusty holy priest.
    Last edited by Saphiramoon; 2012-12-28 at 06:39 PM.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    Are you silly?

    Disc Priests have the cheapest mana cost of any healer.
    What's that got to do with anything? Regen is balanced around how fast a class uses mana, PLUS mana recovery. A mana cost reduction, instead of a rapture buff, would improve Disc in PvP, and Holy in PvE and PvP, without breaking Disc in PvE.

    They could also try something like "Holy Concentration" - increase Spirit Regen for Holy and Disc priests. Bottom Line is still only Disc in PvE has sufficient mana to function.

    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    It's kinda funny that Shells can stack, making it a ~200k shield per Priest, which means 400-600k shaved of major ability every minute. That's something they should think about.
    Yeah. I've thought about this a lot. Couple solutions; Random damage. and b) Predictable damage has a cast time, but no CD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    I've seen HamSandwichFace stating this thing about disc having 4 ways to recover mana so correct me if I'm wrong:

    Priests discipline: rapture, shadowfiend, hymn of hope.
    Priests holy: shadowfiend, hymn of hope.

    I assume you counted the 4th for disc as being meditation, which I didnt, as its baseline for all healers.
    Did you need any more sufficient proof Ham has no idea what he is talking about then a) not knowing how DA works, and b) Not knowing mana regen abilities, or c) not knowing how Disc works in PvP?

  13. #153
    Ham still runs his mouth and gets upset over Disc Priests?

    How shocking.

  14. #154
    How about we try to discuss rationally, don't fling veiled insults, and remember that the patch notes have a long way to go before they are final. Be civil to each other.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    I've seen you stating this thing about disc having more ways to recover mana so correct me if I'm wrong:
    Shamans: water shield, manatide (raid cd, guaranteed to all healers), a possible 3rd by glyphing lightning bolt (agree not amazing); I also recall something about getting mana back from crit heals but very unsure of that part.
    Paladins: divine plea, a free resource (holy power), seal of insight (mana on meleeing - not sure if that ones is still there, I didnt play my pala in mop).
    Monks: mana tea, a free resource (chi)
    Druids: innervate, clearcasting, they used to have a talent that was giving them a proc chance to restore mana on certain hot ticks - but I dont think they have it anymore
    Priests discipline: rapture, shadowfiend, hymn of hope. Hymn of hope is on a large cd, and is not guaranteed to restore any mana to the priest that casts it, since unlike
    You're wrong. Here's how I was counting it:

    Shaman > water shield + MTT + spirit
    Monk > Spirit + Mana Tea (Chi doesn't count because you need to spend mana for Chi, and Chi costs/spells are balanced around mana expenditure)
    Pally > Spirit + DP (arguably LoH glyph) (again, HP doesn't count because you need to use mana to get HP and HP is balanced around that mana expenditure)
    Holy Priest > Spirit + Fiend/Solace + Hope
    Disc > Spirit + Fiend/Solace + Hope + Rapture

    No-one noticed Priests dominance in MSV because Priests didn't become the superpower they are now until Monks got gutted into the ground.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    No-one noticed Priests dominance in MSV because Priests didn't become the superpower they are now until Monks got gutted into the ground.
    Sigh. No one noticed Priests were OP because they weren't; until Rapture was increased from 150% to 200%; DA was buffed from 30% to 50%; Archangel worked with Spirit Shell and Finally Inner Focus was changed to work with Spirit Shell.

    Three pretty massive buff, plus one small one, makes for a pretty big increase.

    Once again, I think you need to leave this thread. This thread is, while not solely for Priests, is at least for people who at least know what they are talking about with regards to the Priest class.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    You're wrong. Here's how I was counting it:

    Shaman > water shield + MTT + spirit
    Monk > Spirit + Mana Tea (Chi doesn't count because you need to spend mana for Chi, and Chi costs/spells are balanced around mana expenditure)
    Pally > Spirit + DP (arguably LoH glyph) (again, HP doesn't count because you need to use mana to get HP and HP is balanced around that mana expenditure)
    Holy Priest > Spirit + Fiend/Solace + Hope
    Disc > Spirit + Fiend/Solace + Hope + Rapture

    No-one noticed Priests dominance in MSV because Priests didn't become the superpower they are now until Monks got gutted into the ground.
    Counting regeneration cooldowns is pointless, all that matters is mana in and mana out.

  18. #158
    Mechagnome shanthi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    (Chi doesn't count because you need to spend mana for Chi, and Chi costs/spells are balanced around mana expenditure)
    (again, HP doesn't count because you need to use mana to get HP and HP is balanced around that mana expenditure)
    That note that I bolded applies to every single mechanic you listed. Assuming paladins and monks are "balanced around" chi and holy power but discipline priests aren't balanced around Rapture/Shadowfiend or shamans aren't balanced around Water Shield/Resurgence is either a fundamental misunderstanding of class design or purposefully disingenuous.

    Ghostcrawler said multiple times on the beta forums that holy power and chi were meant as a form of mana savings/regen, just one that operated in a different way. There's no difference in philosophy, they factor that into, as Maleric said, mana in and mana out for "net mana" just as they do Rapture or Water Shield.

    Also, even if your attempts to hand wave away your own regen mechanics were valid, Rapture requires you to spend mana on Power Word: Shield so therefore "doesn't count" by your logic.
    Last edited by shanthi; 2012-12-29 at 03:24 AM.
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  19. #159
    By Ham's logic, a tank with 2 50% damage reduction cooldowns that last 10 sec each is "OP" compared to a tank with a 100% damage reduction cooldown that lasts 10 sec, just because tank A has 2 cooldowns.

    Can we say "lawl?"

  20. #160
    What matters in mana in and out? Why do Disc Priests get in the most mana then, and in return have the cheapest spell costs?

    Is there a reason why PoH, the strongest AoE heal in the game, is also the cheapest? The group "limitation" is no longer a limitation these days because a smart raid will order groups so that everyone is hit by PoH, and there's not a single fight in the game which requires groups to be spread out of PoHs range (even Sha of Fear HC PoH will hit everyone).

    All I would want to see is DA reverted back to 30% and Rapture stay at 200% (outside of spirit procs of course) as well as the SS nerf. I think those changes would be more than fair. I really can't see how anyone could disagree with that (unless they enjoy totally dominating every single aspect of every single fight).

    Quote Originally Posted by Spazzeh View Post
    By Ham's logic, a tank with 2 50% damage reduction cooldowns that last 10 sec each is "OP" compared to a tank with a 100% damage reduction cooldown that lasts 10 sec, just because tank A has 2 cooldowns.
    I don't see how that's at all a comparison to what I said.

    Any Disc Priest who has Weakauras is going to proc Rapture enough so that on top of every other mana CD they have they can regenerate the most amount of mana over any fight they choose. Mindbender is an unncessary bonus for Disc, as is Solace, and on top of that you have Hymn of Hope. Ironically, Hymn of Hope (in our raids) is only ever called when other healers need it. The Disc Priests never use it for their own need.

    Also if you want to make a comparison about "OP mana" cooldowns. Monks have none. You never "gain" mana from Mana Tea. You're always losing mana. In order to end a 10~ minute fight with 0 mana with the mana expenditure Monks endure you would need to average around 30k spirit for the entire fight. Currently I can average 15k. Basically in order to 'stay afloat' I (like every other healer apart from Disc Priests) have to just not do stuff for a long period of time. On most fights in order to stay positive (with mana regen) I just heal with Eminence and bank Chi, with Renewing on CD until 'large damage' occurs. Unfortunately you still go OOM. It's ridiculous if you ask me.
    Last edited by HamSandwichFace; 2012-12-29 at 06:26 AM.

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