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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Disc is getting nerfed.
    See above math. Disc is, at best, getting a slap on the wrists.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    There you go, I proved your class is overpowered and being untouched by in 5.2 via math - the proof you wanted. Now what arguments are you going to use to argue Disc is 'fine' and 'needs to be this strong else it'll get benched'? Really, I'm looking forward to the replies.
    when did blizzard post this new formula?

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by ambident View Post
    when did blizzard post this new formula?
    Maladii posted the formula on the US forums in some random thread. Can link if you want.

  4. #204
    sure go for it, but i don't think maladii works for blizzard does he?

    so maybe post his source too.

  5. #205
    Nice read Yvaelle!

    I would however claim that Holy is anything but versatile these days. With Chakra you can be capable at either single target healing or aoe healing. But not both, and any healing you do in the off-chakra stance will be highly inefficient. This is a big hurt for a spec that is so utterly dependant on playing it optimally to master it.

    In a given chakra stance, half my buttons are simply "wrong". That doesn't mean I shouldn't use them, but it means they generally aren't the right choice. Effectively chakra makes me a less flexible healer, and is reducing my options if I want to play effectively. And as holy you play optimally or run OOM. No middle grounds. Blizzards solution of increasing the chakra bonus so that it evens out in the long run even if I use more non-optimal buttons is only making this weakness even more painfully obvious; because I should leave all those non-optimal buttons to the other healers and stick to my optimal ones. Strengthening Chakra just made this more important. So in my opinion Holy is probably the least flexible healer right now due to this chakra limitation, and it's a major source of frustration for me at least.

    While it is somewhat simple to switch chakra stance, there is a cooldown restriction on when you can do this. That said, this can generally be overcome by planning ahead. But no matter how you look at it, we sort of left the game where healers were could solely focus on one part of healing two expansions ago, at least this is true for 10-mans. Chakra in its current form simply stopped being a good idea in Wrath of the Lich king.

    --

    I would also claim that Holy is actually pretty damned strong in its effective chakra stance, and 5.1 just made it stronger. And there is a niche to holypriests still: massive unparallelled burst healing. This is what I still so adore about the holy spec: you can in 15 seconds do one point five million healing if you want to, and the way you can spawn 250 quadrillion green numbers on the screen in virtually no time is reason to fall in love. No other spec comes remotely close to that feeling. This is why I love holy to death.

    Of course, as the forums are always quick to point out: Holy's absolutely biggest forte is the ability to spec Disc.... and since the disc spec offers more raw healing, better cooldowns, virtually no mana issues, (and if I may put it a bit confrontational) a one-button healing style that wins all healing meters without even trying, added survivability, less annoying class mechanics (though admittedly I think Grace is quite annoying) and - the big one: more than half its healing done as proactive life-saving absorbs... well, that burst advantage of Holy suddenly doesn't look so tempting anymore.

    --

    That said it could and has been worse. There is always one spec that needs to be at the bottom of the healing barrel. Healing equilibrium dictates that there is always an uproar unless this bottom-most spec is the holypriest, because being worse than a holypriest is quite a grave insult (wish I could find some of those restodruid threads!). Finding that my spec is NOT at the bottom of the healing barrel right now is some sort of shocking precedence as far as anything since the black temple goes. (edit: hm. forgot first week in ulduar. Okay, point still stands)

    Unlike certain raids in Cata, I think that Holy is good enough to stand on its own right now, and the spec can be used on any content. The holy spec ain't bad. It's just not a real choice when you can and should go disc. I think it is not something that can be solved by tweaking holy or disc numbers. Make disc on par with the holypriest and the entire priest class suffers from mediocrity (kinda like in the first weeks of MoP). Make holy on par with disc and disc still wins due to mechanics.
    Last edited by Danner; 2012-12-30 at 07:02 PM.
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  6. #206
    And disc isn't "fine" - disc is more OP than any other healer even in unpredictable damage. A well played disc makes all the other healers look like a joke by having nothing to do in boss fight. Discs are crying how bad they are now on PvP, but where is holy on PvP? Even worse.
    Disc is very weak on unpredictable damage. By design. And read the damn thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    In PvP, it's the reverse. Disc is barely functional and Holy is completely broken. We require buffs there; hopefully without breaking PvE. It's okay if they buff Holy PvE, too, because they *really* need it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blachshma View Post
    Wait, so let me get this - because holy priests were best in early days of WoW, they should not be viable for 2 (some would argue 3) expansions now?
    Nobody said this, ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Not what I was saying at all. Your timeline suggested that Holy had never been on top, but your timeline didn't include the first two expansions when Holy was the only "true healer" by design
    It was just Vanilla, really, and the last two patches of BC. Karazhan, Gruul's, TK, SSC, Holy was pretty subpar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maleric View Post
    How about you link that "evidence" and explain how it applies. You haven't yet made a coherent argument, you're just tossing out assertions.
    He was dead wrong about this. I don't think he knows that temp. spirit procs were not hotfixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    In unpredictable raid damage, Discs response time to random damage spikes goes way, way down
    Yes - mostly because random damage doesn't target specific groups, and Prayer of Healing is extremely limited here.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    The bottom line is this:

    Disc needs to be nerfed in 5.2 and at the moment it's barely being touched. There are so many things with the spec that are flat out broken that just aren't getting changed and that, itself, is really ridiculous.

    I'm going to do a little math here*:
    Base PoH: 30k
    Mastery: 30%
    Crit: 10%

    * all of these stats are more than achievable currently, so the stats are not being misleading. In fact the values are really low.

    this is how SS works currently: Average heal * 1.3 * (1 + mastery %) * (1 + critical %)
    this is how SS works in 5.1: Average heal * (1 + (0.5 * (1 + mastery %))) * (1 + critical %)

    So currently: 30000 * 1.3 * (1 + 30%) * (1 + 15%) = 58305
    in 5.2: 30000 * (1 + (0.5 * (1 + 40%))) * (1 + 15%) = 58605

    There you go. Math shows that SS is infact getting a buff under those above values in 5.2. Now, how about if we scale it up and imagine super-sick BiS gear?

    Average PoH: 60000
    Mastery: 50%
    Crit: 20%

    Currently: 60000 * 1.3 * (1 + 50%) * (1 + 20%) = 140400 (that's actually insane LOL)
    in 5.2: 60000 * (1 + (0.5 * (1 + 50%))) * (1 + 15%) = 120750

    You see? At lower gear levels SS is infact stronger in 5.2, but at a "better" gear level the scaling gets "less ridiculous". Even so, in my "super-omg-super-sick-gear" mode, each PoH under SS is doing 20k~ less healing, or 15%~ less. Now, if SS is around 30-35% of your overall healing done, then the nerf is nothing more than 5%~ (max) nerf to your throughput.

    There you go, I proved your class is overpowered and being untouched by in 5.2 via math - the proof you wanted. Now what arguments are you going to use to argue Disc is 'fine' and 'needs to be this strong else it'll get benched'? Really, I'm looking forward to the replies.
    You're understating the amount of mastery that people have now, and ignoring the amount they'll have next tier.

    Also, the math you posted is for Spirit Shell, a spell that I think pretty much everyone agrees needs to be nerfed. Still waiting to see coherent, math-based arguments for your claims on DA and Rapture.

    And before you mention it again, your and your buddy's raid progression doesn't establish anything other than that you raid five days a week. Good for you!

  8. #208
    High Overlord Vexxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleric View Post
    And before you mention it again, your and your buddy's raid progression doesn't establish anything other than that you raid five days a week. Good for you!
    Don't think I've come across such an ignorant statement. Where on earth did you pull that idea from?
    Wildstar - <Eugenic>
    www.eugenic-guild.eu

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Vexxie View Post
    Don't think I've come across such an ignorant statement. Where on earth did you pull that idea from?
    I'm sorry, six days a week.

  10. #210
    High Overlord Vexxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleric View Post
    I'm sorry, six days a week.
    Your reading comprehension is atrocious. That wasn't the point I was getting at. Just because we raid more how does that make us equal in terms of skill and understanding? It doesn't. I know there are casuals out there that know a lot don't get me wrong but you are certainly not one of them.

    So, stop being so mad and if you have something sensible to say then i'm sure people would be willing to listen. However everything you have said so far is utter dribble.

    Instead of trying to argue because you think you are right, listen to what people have to say. 99% of the time, you will learn something off of these players. In fact I am someone that tends to see both side of an argument but in this case your argument is baseless and you invalidated any future opinions by saying just because we raid more we have cleared the content. Doesn't work like that sonny, but bless you for thinking that.
    Wildstar - <Eugenic>
    www.eugenic-guild.eu

  11. #211
    Okay so.

    12k spirit as a base value and a Priest is using Relic of Chi / Spirits of the Sun (current BiS) on average Spirits of the Sun is 1484 spirit and Relic of Chi Ji is 1345

    So total spirit can be valued as 14829.

    In a 10 minute fight you can Rapture 50 times so that's 200% of 14829 * 50 = 1482900 mana - (cost of PW:S * 50) 925000 = 557900 mana

    With 5.2 changes you'll go Spirits of the Sun + Qin-xi as BiS trinkets so that's:

    12000 + 1218 = 13218

    13218 under the same mechanics, 10 minute fight = 50 raptures =

    13218 * 250% * 50 = 1652550
    cost of PW:S * 50 = 925000
    total gained = 727250

    the difference

    = 5.2 buffs rapture by 169350 mana.

    Yeah, you're totally getting nerfed hard this patch.

    To make it clearer to stupid people:

    5.1 = 28578 mana per Rapture
    5.2 = 32820 mana per Rapture

    .......... Yeah.
    Last edited by HamSandwichFace; 2012-12-30 at 08:52 PM.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    The bottom line is this:

    Disc needs to be nerfed in 5.2 and at the moment it's barely being touched. There are so many things with the spec that are flat out broken that just aren't getting changed and that, itself, is really ridiculous.

    I'm going to do a little math here*:
    Base PoH: 30k
    Mastery: 30%
    Crit: 10%

    * all of these stats are more than achievable currently, so the stats are not being misleading. In fact the values are really low.

    this is how SS works currently: Average heal * 1.3 * (1 + mastery %) * (1 + critical %)
    this is how SS works in 5.1: Average heal * (1 + (0.5 * (1 + mastery %))) * (1 + critical %)

    So currently: 30000 * 1.3 * (1 + 30%) * (1 + 15%) = 58305
    in 5.2: 30000 * (1 + (0.5 * (1 + 40%))) * (1 + 15%) = 58605

    There you go. Math shows that SS is infact getting a buff under those above values in 5.2. Now, how about if we scale it up and imagine super-sick BiS gear?

    Average PoH: 60000
    Mastery: 50%
    Crit: 20%

    Currently: 60000 * 1.3 * (1 + 50%) * (1 + 20%) = 140400 (that's actually insane LOL)
    in 5.2: 60000 * (1 + (0.5 * (1 + 50%))) * (1 + 15%) = 120750

    You see? At lower gear levels SS is infact stronger in 5.2, but at a "better" gear level the scaling gets "less ridiculous". Even so, in my "super-omg-super-sick-gear" mode, each PoH under SS is doing 20k~ less healing, or 15%~ less. Now, if SS is around 30-35% of your overall healing done, then the nerf is nothing more than 5%~ (max) nerf to your throughput.

    There you go, I proved your class is overpowered and being untouched by in 5.2 via math - the proof you wanted. Now what arguments are you going to use to argue Disc is 'fine' and 'needs to be this strong else it'll get benched'? Really, I'm looking forward to the replies.
    Not trying to distract from your original point, however your math isn't even close.

    Divine aegis is actually 50% on live already, not 30% as the tooltips say. That puts the "current" heals at 64350, not 58305. Which does present a pretty hefty nerf.

    Your 5.2 math for PoH is also incorrect, you forgot about crit adding more DA to the heal, Crit itself wont passively increase the heal like it did before so you can't just multiply by 1.2 anymore (you put 1.15 anyways, which would be incorrect on both methods) What you'd do to get around this change in your math. If my understanding of the new PoH is correct, this is what you will see for new SS

    (Heal x 1.2 Crit) + ((Base PoH DA + (Additional Crit DA which is 50% of 20% of the base heal)) x 1+Mastery) = SS amount

    (60k x 1.2) = 72k (base heal amount turned to SS absorb)
    ((30k + (0.2 x 0.5 x 60k)) x 1.5 = 54000k (base absorbs, will also be turned to SS, this is the only part affected by mastery in 5.2)
    Total between the two is now 126000 (keep in mind this is an average, rng will now affect this, as you can have crits on the base heals)

    Vs the old SS of (60k x 1.5 x 1.2 x 1.5) totaling 162000
    What we're likely to see because of this, is more of a shift to crit out of mastery for PoH SS focused healing.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 09:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    Okay so.

    12k spirit as a base value and a Priest is using Relic of Chi / Spirits of the Sun (current BiS) on average Spirits of the Sun is 1484 spirit and Relic of Chi Ji is 1345

    So total spirit can be valued as 14829.

    In a 10 minute fight you can Rapture 50 times so that's 200% of 14829 * 50 = 1482900 mana - (cost of PW:S * 50) 925000 = 557900 mana

    With 5.2 changes you'll go Spirits of the Sun + Qin-xi as BiS trinkets so that's:

    12000 + 1218 = 13218

    13218 under the same mechanics, 10 minute fight = 50 raptures =

    13218 * 250% * 50 = 1652550
    cost of PW:S * 50 = 925000
    total gained = 727250

    the difference

    = 5.2 buffs rapture by 169350 mana.

    Yeah, you're totally getting nerfed hard this patch.

    To make it clearer to stupid people:

    5.1 = 28578 mana per Rapture
    5.2 = 32820 mana per Rapture

    .......... Yeah.
    You're also wrong on this, as you're still adding the spirit from the on use trinket (as an average) to your rapture proc for 5.2. It doesn't count, only spirit from gear will count for rapture now. But it will be at 250%.
    It's a nerf to those 100k mana rapture procs that were possible when combined with mana tide totem previously, but its a buff to all the rest of the little 28k ones you'd get with nothing procced.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestar View Post
    Not trying to distract from your original point, however your math isn't even close.

    Divine aegis is actually 50% on live already, not 30% as the tooltips say. That puts the "current" heals at 64350, not 58305. Which does present a pretty hefty nerf.

    Your 5.2 math for PoH is also incorrect, you forgot about crit adding more DA to the heal, Crit itself wont passively increase the heal like it did before so you can't just multiply by 1.2 anymore (you put 1.15 anyways, which would be incorrect on both methods) What you'd do to get around this change in your math. If my understanding of the new PoH is correct, this is what you will see for new SS

    (Heal x 1.2 Crit) + ((Base PoH DA + (Additional Crit DA which is 50% of 20% of the base heal)) x 1+Mastery) = SS amount

    (60k x 1.2) = 72k (base heal amount turned to SS absorb)
    ((30k + (0.2 x 0.5 x 60k)) x 1.5 = 54000k (base absorbs, will also be turned to SS, this is the only part affected by mastery in 5.2)
    Total between the two is now 126000 (keep in mind this is an average, rng will now affect this, as you can have crits on the base heals)

    Vs the old SS of (60k x 1.5 x 1.2 x 1.5) totaling 162000
    What we're likely to see because of this, is more of a shift to crit out of mastery for PoH SS focused healing.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 09:10 PM ----------



    You're also wrong on this, as you're still adding the spirit from the on use trinket (as an average) to your rapture proc for 5.2. It doesn't count, only spirit from gear will count for rapture now. But it will be at 250%.
    It's a nerf to those 100k mana rapture procs that were possible when combined with mana tide totem previously, but its a buff to all the rest of the little 28k ones you'd get with nothing procced.
    The current SS on live uses the 30% DA, not 50%.

    At least know what you're talking about before you try to discredit someone's post.

    Do you even think?

    I said the 5.1 value (using Relic of Chi-Ji / Spirits) would be 14289 spirit as an average over a 10 minute fight (which is correct). in 5.2 Qin-xi's trinket will be BiS which is a flat +value to spirit, not a proc. I didn't include the proc from Spirits either. Assuming the 12000 base I used, Heroic Qin-xi offers 1218 spirit passively, thus 12000 + 1218 = 13218.

    Do people no longer go to school? :s
    Last edited by HamSandwichFace; 2012-12-30 at 09:17 PM.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    The current SS on live uses the 30% DA, not 50%.

    At least know what you're talking about before you try to discredit someone's post.

    Do you even think?

    Do people no longer go to school? :s
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Disc-hotfixes
    Please note the date, November 4th, this has been live for almost 2 months now. Thanks for keeping up to date.
    From http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...e-november-20/

    But yes, I see what you did with the spirit trinket there, I misread the name of the ones you listed as BiS. To be fair you need to keep the same trinkets when you compare rapture amounts, Also, you should have mana tide totem in the calculations for 5.1, as it's a pretty hefty spirit bonus for rapture if timed properly.
    Last edited by Nestar; 2012-12-30 at 09:29 PM.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestar View Post
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Disc-hotfixes
    Please note the date, November 4th, this has been live for almost 2 months now. Thanks for keeping up to date.
    From http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...e-november-20/
    Are you literally dumb? DA is 50% sure but the formula for calculating SS's "value" per spell uses the DA at a 30% value, not 50%. This is being fixed in 5.2.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    Are you literally dumb? DA is 50% sure but the formula for calculating SS's "value" per spell uses the DA at a 30% value, not 50%. This is being fixed in 5.2.
    Please link me to the actual post if I've missed something, but from the blue post and patch notes, there's nothing indicating how divine aegis is incorrect, yet alone whether its 30% instead of 50%. The post I'm quoting here could easily just be stating that they aren't duplicating mastery anymore (mastery affecting both the intial absorb and the DA amount from PoH)
    "Spirit Shell no longer benefits from Mastery, and now properly includes the benefits of Divine Aegis and critical effect chance."

  17. #217
    ham you come off as a super awkward dude, and you're acting like when they nerf disc your life will be worth living again. give it a rest until PTR is released, there is no reason to be so hostile to people.

    Once the PTR is out, if you do not think the actual changes are enough, give feedback.

    until then... stop picking fights.

  18. #218
    You state facts without backing them up.

    You then prove those facts with mathematics.

    You then get told to wait and see even though the mathematics shows that stuff is going to be better (Rapture) or relatively unchanged (Spirit Shell) because people seem to think this game is balanced around the drooling idiots that populate LFR.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    You state facts without backing them up.

    You then prove those facts with mathematics.

    You then get told to wait and see even though the mathematics shows that stuff is going to be better (Rapture) or relatively unchanged (Spirit Shell) because people seem to think this game is balanced around the drooling idiots that populate LFR.
    Cool math, let me give it a shot as well. I'm a bit drunk but I'm sure I'll manage to get some slightly more realistic numbers anyways.

    First of all, lets use the same trinkets for both situations to get, you know, comparable numbers.

    Lets assume 10k spirit excluding trinkets (what number you chose is largely irrelevant but this is quite accurate for me, most discs use more spirit than me so feel free to pick a higher number). Your numbers for the proc trinkets aren't entirely correct but they'll do (the fact that proc trinkets give their spirit 'earlier' than passive trinkets in an interval is largely offset by the fact that they won't proc immediately after the icd). This gives us the following results for 50 raptures:
    12829x2x50=1282 900
    10000x2.5x50=1250 000

    Cool, not a huge nerf, still a nerf though. Considering that blizzard chose to buff rapture to 250% as they removed the spirit buffs (something I don't really think was the best way to go about things considering the scaling) it's obvious that their primary intent wasn't to butcher the ability, it was simply to avoid the regen possible in specific circumstances, which brings us to mana tide:

    Instead of 12829 spirit we now get on avg. 16029 spirit. This assumes a shaman with 15k spirit raidbuffed (quite high, doable in 5.2 though, pick a lower number if you want), 2 mana tide uses in a 5 min fight, however also disregards the fact that a good disc potentially could time his rapture to consistently get two procs in each tide (if you want I can math this as well, the nerf is massive if you include this).

    16029x2x50=1602 900
    10000x2.5x50=1250 000
    So the end result is 352 900 less mana, that's a fair bit.

    For fun we could compare this to the amazing buff to rapture that took us from being the worst healer in the game to the 'unlimitied mana gods'.

    16029x2x50=1602 900
    16029x1.5x50=1202 175

    Snap, if we include proc trinkets and mana tide this nerf actually brings us close to the same level of regen we had before any rapture buffs. You're right, it's totally a buff!


    Onto spirit shell we go!

    After starting I came to the conclusion that I really cba to type down the entire math for this, so I'll just show that your numbers are entirely incorrect (yes, you actually got the formula for SS correct, I'm stunned!). Lets start out by the fact that you for some silly reason assume that we have 30% mastery in a raid. I'm almost at that number outside of raid buffs, and my gear is far from BiS. Secondly, you are magically adding 10% mastery in our 5.2 numbers, mind linking me that buff (your 5.2 BiS crit is at 15% as well)? Third, we have no information that this is how SS will be calculated in 5.2 (even if it makes the most sense). Do you actually think spirit shell should heal less than a normal PoH (if the 5.2 changes turn out as you suggest it'll on avg. be the same healing as a PoH, basically just converting all of it to a shield)?

    You've also yet to in any way, shape or form prove that we are 'that' op atm (and hence need more tuning than this). Considering how absorb mechanics work the fact that we top the meters would be expected even if our output is equal or even lower than other healers and this alone does in no way make us 'op', in most cases this simply means that we 'steal' it from other healers.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    Are you literally dumb? DA is 50% sure but the formula for calculating SS's "value" per spell uses the DA at a 30% value, not 50%. This is being fixed in 5.2.
    This is sadly true. SS does use DA as 30% as of 5.1. In-congruent, but true. This is why I thought the nerf was more substantial then it was at first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter
    @Ghostcrawler The Rapture change (250%) is flatly wrong. It does NOTHING for Holy, plus makes disc scale outrageously. Need something else!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    @Venaliter How does it make Disc scale outrageously? It was only broken when it stacked with temp Spirit buffs.
    Just sigh. As an advocate for class balance, it would be sad to see this go live. Shocked that GC doesn't see the danger here; and it does nothing to ease Holy's woes.
    Last edited by Venaliter; 2012-12-31 at 02:07 AM.

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