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  1. #1281
    Mazi, I am not saying they should do garbage DPS by any means. But I think in the general MMO design, pure DPS classes should always be on top, followed by the hybrids/utility.

    Of course 25 mans are going to stack the higher DPS first and bring the hybrids/utility later. But they will still bring Spriests/ferals/boomkins because they have other amazing things they can offer other then lord DPS

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-20 at 09:22 PM ----------

    I mean hell, lets look at where spriests came from...


    Vanilla through BC they were literally called, mana batteries...

    WoTLK they got a lot of DPS buffs/utility.

    Cata they become decently competetive

    MoP they are fairly competetive and only getting more competetive.


    I think they have gotten pretty good buffs over the course of the games duration IMO

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  2. #1282
    Seriously when does it stop? People should stop using hybrid vs pure as justification of some classes doing way less dps than others. When you're in the middle of the fight you can't respec and throw PW:Barrier or Spirit shell. The only things that matters in raid now are dps and utility. And some pure classes bring way more utility into the raid than some hybrids. And utility doesn't always mean healing.

  3. #1283
    Because they aren't called hybrids because they do pure straight DPS


    And spriests can bubble people, if a tank/dps needs to get somewhere a spriest can easily PW:S them to give them the body and soul buff.


    Shadow Priest: Vampiric Embrace, dispersion, mana hymn{big one}, a lot of self heals, shelds and offer offspec tranqs when symbiosised
    Shaman: Slew of totems, can pop healing cooldowns even as DPS via talents, blood lust/hero
    Feral Druids: Brez, Offspec tranq, ability to self heal for a mega amount every 10 seconds or so, common amounts of self healing, raid speed increases for mobility fights, offer symbiosis to other classes


    Mages: time warp...
    Warlocks: Battle res and a portal, some self healing and self cooldowns
    Rogues: Nothing extremley useful for the raid
    Warriors: Rallying Cry


    So.... I would say hybrids have significantly more to offer for raid utility then any pure DPS class ever could.


    Also, WAY LESS is a pretty huge over exaggeration at this point. Spriests and other hybrids.. have held up great so far this tier against pure DPS classes and got significant buff to even bring them more in line with the pure DPS classes...

    I just don't think people understand how important hybrids are in raids OTHER then pure dps.
    Last edited by HolyLathusDisc; 2013-02-20 at 09:43 PM.

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  4. #1284
    The whole idea of a hybrid tax on DPS needs to go away from the mindset of the players. The developers don't balance with that in mind and the player base really shouldn't settle for sub-par DPS because X class also has utility.

    Shadow has been in a pretty bad spot for T14 and I'm relieved to see something being done about it at long bloody last. A lot of Shadow's issues are still not fixed, but at least DPS will be decent.

    EDIT: And, for the record, pure DPS classes have far more utility than what you list in your post.

  5. #1285
    ANY mmo you play, thats how hybrids work. They offer more utility to groups, and sacrifice it by doing SLIGHTLY lower DPS then pure DPS classes


    That's just... how mmos work >.>

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  6. #1286
    That's not how WoW works. Not since Wrath.

  7. #1287
    You sure? Cause the current state of hybrid DPS seems to say otherwise >.>

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  8. #1288
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyLathusDisc View Post
    Shadow Priest: Vampiric Embrace, dispersion, mana hymn{big one}, a lot of self heals, shelds and offer offspec tranqs when symbiosised

    Mages: time warp...
    Warlocks: Battle res and a portal, some self healing and self cooldowns
    Really? Mages only bring TW? And have you ever used Symb-Tranq and look at the numbers?

    It's not like they have Ice Barrier, Ring of Frost (hello first kills of WotE hc), Cauterize, Ice Block...
    While Dark Bargain for locks and self heals from GoSac/Soul Leech aren't small, Healthstones do bring more than Vampiric Embrace/Halo.

    It's not like Shadow Priests are lacking in utility, but there is no significant difference between most of the classes anymore. You are not looking at the whole picture.

  9. #1289
    It fluctuates all the time. I remember in DS when a lot of hybrids topped meters on encounters, including Shadow.

  10. #1290
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyLathusDisc View Post
    Idk what you mean by "significantly". But our a priest holds up very close to our other dps. Some fights he's second or third. I think people are being a little dramatic about s priests and their dps being low. They will get brought to raids regardless because their dps is still good on top of having decent utility in raids.
    Check top 20% in raidbots, check simcraft? I wonder if it's more likely that the great majority of sps are worse than the players of other classes, or that your sp happens to be better than the other players in your raid.

    I don't see how we're significantly below every DPS class now, and I don't see how buffing other low specs AND us makes us worse off. I would imagine that certain people would only be satisfied if shadow was 10% above everyone else.
    According to most statistics we are. It doesn't make us worse off, but buffing us and the majority of the dps specs above us (no, not just the other low specs) means that the relative gain we get is minor. I would be completely satisfied if sps would deal the same damage as the majority of the dps classes, that's currently (nor in 5.2) not the truth.

    I don't beleive in "every dps should do equal dps". Because if dps were the only thing that mattered. Rads would stack nothing but arcane mages.

    Each class has a reason other then "dps and healing". And sorry if this offends s priests, but if you want to do lord dps. Roll a pure dps class and not a hybrid.
    That's your opinion, blizzard has stated that they want hybrids and pures to be around the same dps, which currently isn't happening. If they want pures to deal more damage I assume they'll state so, until then it's not fine that they are. I'd be fine with pure classes having more dps if they had significantly less utility/perks than hybrids, but they don't. Locks bring health stones, they have full dps while moving, they have burst cds, and have significantly higher dps. In return we bring VE and our 90 talents, it's not even a contest.

  11. #1291
    Mechagnome Syenite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyLathusDisc View Post
    Because they aren't called hybrids because they do pure straight DPS


    And spriests can bubble people, if a tank/dps needs to get somewhere a spriest can easily PW:S them to give them the body and soul buff.


    Shadow Priest: Vampiric Embrace, dispersion, mana hymn{big one}, a lot of self heals, shelds and offer offspec tranqs when symbiosised
    Shaman: Slew of totems, can pop healing cooldowns even as DPS via talents, blood lust/hero
    Feral Druids: Brez, Offspec tranq, ability to self heal for a mega amount every 10 seconds or so, common amounts of self healing, raid speed increases for mobility fights, offer symbiosis to other classes


    Mages: time warp...
    Warlocks: Battle res and a portal, some self healing and self cooldowns
    Rogues: Nothing extremley useful for the raid
    Warriors: Rallying Cry


    So.... I would say hybrids have significantly more to offer for raid utility then any pure DPS class ever could.


    Also, WAY LESS is a pretty huge over exaggeration at this point. Spriests and other hybrids.. have held up great so far this tier against pure DPS classes and got significant buff to even bring them more in line with the pure DPS classes...

    I just don't think people understand how important hybrids are in raids OTHER then pure dps.
    Lets just add a few things as you seem to considder just about every spell a hybrid has as being "utility":

    Mage: Selfheal (glyph of evocation), improved invis (for some situations a dispersion equivalent when it comes to soaking), gives your druid healer iceblock with symbiosis
    Warlock: healthstone, a metric ton of pets for various situations (which is a stupid way of describing utility, similar to "a shaman has totems")
    Rogue: smokebomb, evasion tanking, aoe soaking, selfheals,
    Warrior: Banner, can provide raid utility with symbiosis aswel

    And so on, you just fail to see how all classes bring utility - utility is more than just healing...

    And the importance of hybrids as for being a "failsafe" declines with every bit of skill your raid aquires.

  12. #1292
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyLathusDisc View Post
    Shadow Priest: Vampiric Embrace, dispersion, mana hymn{big one}, a lot of self heals, shelds and offer offspec tranqs when symbiosised

    Mages: time warp...
    Warlocks: Battle res and a portal, some self healing and self cooldowns
    Rogues: Nothing extremley useful for the raid
    Warriors: Rallying Cry
    Excuse me, but is this list a joke? You can't possibly be so ignorant that you include symbiosis tranq but not things like banners, right? So hybrids should be lower because you think "that's how it should be"? Blizzard has stated that there is no hybridtax anymore, and while doing that they have also given most pures significantly more utility (which previously was the advantage hybrids had, at the cost of dps, this advantage doesn't exist anymore).

    I'll help out your "utility" list (I'll simply list what they bring over other classes, excluding the dps itself, which according to you would be the pures only advantage). Obviously not including buffs/time warp since several classes can bring that.
    SP: Raidhealing, mana hymn, ranged and multidots.

    Mages: Amazing survivability, amazing mobility, amazing burst, ranged and ok "cleave".
    Warlocks: Portal, health stones, full dps while moving, solid burst, ranged and multidotting.
    Rogues: Tricks (minor raid damage buff), amazing survivability, amazing mobility, full dps while moving, solid burst, amazing cleave, and in 5.2 a raidcd (smoke bomb).
    Warriors: Two raidwide emergency buttons (Rallying cry+demoralizing banner), a raidwide damage buff (skull banner), amazing burst, full dps while moving, cleave, amazing mobility.

    Sorry, I don't see how a SP brings more utility than a warrior right now, at all. I just see that we bring way less damage.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-02-20 at 10:39 PM.

  13. #1293
    warrior is a hybrid too man, it can tank.

    Answering to that totally retarded list is a waste of time. Lol, spriest bring dispersion, and then for mages he only lists time warp. As if time warp alone isnt worth 10x all the utility of spriests. If you say dispersion say iceblock, its the same jazz son.

    There is no more hybrids and pures, and its not pures that are above hybrids, its fire early, arcane now mages and affli locks. Rogues are not topping shit right now, neither are hunters. they are pures being middle of the back, destroyed in parses by the enhancement shaman "hybrid". This is not about pure vs hybrids, as this dude who is obviously living in a world of his own is trying to make it out to be, its about overpowered specs vs underpowered ones. Blizz doesnt think in term of pures and hybrids since tigole left. You can google tigole

  14. #1294
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Excuse me, but is this list a joke? You can't possibly be so ignorant that you include symbiosis tranq but not things like banners, right? So hybrids should be lower because you think "that's how it should be"? Blizzard has stated that there is no hybridtax anymore, and while doing that they have also given most pures significantly more utility (which previously was the advantage hybrids had, at the cost of dps, this advantage doesn't exist anymore).

    I'll help out your "utility" list (I'll simply list what they bring over other classes, excluding the dps itself, which according to you would be the pures only advantage). Obviously not including buffs/time warp since several classes can bring that.
    SP: Raidhealing, mana hymn, ranged and multidots.

    Mages: Amazing survivability, amazing mobility, amazing burst, ranged and ok "cleave".
    Warlocks: Portal, health stones, full dps while moving, solid burst, ranged and multidotting.
    Rogues: Tricks (minor raid damage buff), amazing survivability, amazing mobility, full dps while moving, solid burst, amazing cleave, and in 5.2 a raidcd (smoke bomb).
    Warriors: Two raidwide emergency buttons (Rallying cry+demoralizing banner), a raidwide damage buff (skull banner), amazing burst, full dps while moving, cleave, amazing mobility.

    Sorry, I don't see how a SP brings more utility than a warrior right now, at all. I just see that we bring way less damage.
    Such a shame you still cannot respond without being condescending and rude cookie.

    Raid Utility, in what I was speaking of. Were things that affect the majority of the raid, if not all.

    I didn't forget things like ice block, and self heals. I was simply targeting things that boost the ENTIRE raid and not just the single person.

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  15. #1295
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Dps specs should be balanced within a reasonable % of each other. You can't really balance utility without risking the dreaded "homogenization," so utility should vary for each dps, just don't give any one dps spec something extremely good.

    The days of "hybrids" is over. Which in my opinion is a good thing. If only all healers could effectively perform within 10-20% of a dps I'd be totally happy. I love being able to dps has holy for dailies and dungeon. And get rid of atonement, ffs.

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  16. #1296
    Let's fix your list then.
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyLathusDisc View Post
    Shadow Priest: Vampiric Embrace, mana hymn{big one}
    Shaman: Totems, blood lust/hero
    Druids: Brez, Offspec tranq, raid speed increases for mobility fights, offer symbiosis to other classes
    DK: Brez, some control with T90 talents
    Paladin: Devo Aura, Hand of Protection


    Mages: time warp, portals, Control
    Warlocks: Battle res, Healthstone, Demonic Gate
    Rogues: Nothing extremley useful for the raid
    Warriors: Rallying Cry, banners(also, it's an hybrid class)
    Hunter: Brez, any buff, Bloodlust
    Seems like both Pures and Hybrids have varying degrees of Raid utility.

  17. #1297
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyLathusDisc View Post
    Such a shame you still cannot respond without being condescending and rude cookie.

    Raid Utility, in what I was speaking of. Were things that affect the majority of the raid, if not all.

    I didn't forget things like ice block, and self heals. I was simply targeting things that boost the ENTIRE raid and not just the single person.
    I'm hardly more condescending than you, and I find your inability to read (what I write) and massive bias far more rude than anything I've said.

    So, by your definition of raid utility (even if it obviously would be more accurate to look at what you get apart from the dps number), exactly how is symbiosis tranq raid utility but banners aren't? How is dispersion utility but ice block and greater invis isn't? How is self-healing utility but health stones aren't? You listed every single ability that has any chance of affecting the raid when you talked about sps, and entirely ignored 80% of the abilities of the other specs affecting the exact same things. This is quite frankly beyond being biased, it's just stupid.


    Dps specs should be balanced within a reasonable % of each other. You can't really balance utility without risking the dreaded "homogenization," so utility should vary for each dps, just don't give any one dps spec something extremely good.
    Exactly. Give all the dps relatively even dps numbers but different kinds of utility. This will encourage diverse line-ups and won't make any spec outright inferior.

  18. #1298
    How am I being condecending at all? You are being flat out rude, and I wish a mod would do something about it to be quite honest.

    I forgot about banners, and honestly why must your first instinct be so rude and degrading? Do you know how to talk to people and have a discussion without acting like a troll? Good god...

    I never said banners aren't utility, stop putting words in my mouth please.

    I will say it again, I listed abilities that affect the WHOLE RAID or the MAJORITY


    I purpously left out things like ice block/invisibility because they only affect the person using them.


    Health stones, I will give to you, I forgot about them too.




    I will repeat myself, because you apparently didn't see what I wrote. I am listing RAID WIDE abilities. Not abilities that affect a single person.







    I think blizzards idea of "homogenization" for the classes has in some ways ruined the feeling of your class being significant in ways other then what another class can do. Blizz wants anyone who can DPS to DPS equally regardless of other abilities they offer, and the same for healers and tanks ect ect. Idk, I played a lot of other MMO, everquest II, FFXI, guild wars, guild wars 2 ect ect and part of what made them fun was each class having very specific things that seperated them from others even if it meant sacrificing DPS.


    The idea in FFXI of the bard, literally running around buffing people... as strange as it sounds, it was incredibly fun to play. They didn't do massive DPS, or do massive healing. They were litterally a buff bot.


    WoW doesn't have that, every DPS is expected to be able to do the same things, every healer is expected to be able to do the same healing.



    Blizzard thinks that if one DPS class has self healing abilities, that every other class should have healing abilities on the same level.


    I mean, it's a discussion that could go on for days. However, I really feel the constant homogenization is killing the idea of playing a class because of its flavors...

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  19. #1299
    How am I being condecending at all? You are being flat out rude, and I wish a mod would do something about it to be quite honest.

    I forgot about banners, and honestly why must your first instinct be so rude and degrading? Do you know how to talk to people and have a discussion without acting like a troll? Good god...
    Do I really need to quote you even more? Mind saving me the effort and go look through your own posting history?

    I will repeat myself, because you apparently didn't see what I wrote. I am listing RAID WIDE abilities. Not abilities that affect a single person.
    and I'll repeat myself. If that's what you're doing, why are you listing single target abilities from sps while not listing raid wide abilities from the other classes?

    I mean, it's a discussion that could go on for days. However, I really feel the constant homogenization is killing the idea of playing a class because of its flavors...
    I suppose this means that you advocate the removal of any utility from pures as well? Otherwise it kinda means that there's no point to ever bring a hybrid. Either way it's not a proper argument against sps having competitive dps, when blizzard has stated that this is their design intent.

  20. #1300
    Mechagnome Syenite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyLathusDisc View Post
    I will say it again, I listed abilities that affect the WHOLE RAID or the MAJORITY
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyLathusDisc View Post
    I didn't forget things like ice block, and self heals. I was simply targeting things that boost the ENTIRE raid and not just the single person.
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyLathusDisc View Post
    Shadow Priest: Vampiric Embrace, dispersion, mana hymn{big one}, a lot of self heals, shelds and offer offspec tranqs when symbiosised
    A few contradictions, cant you please make up your mind before making a long list of things hybrids have and pures dont?

    Saying one class has selfheals and and leaving that comment for a different makes one think that you are heavily biased.

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