[Priest] 5.2 PTR notes

[Deleted]

It's a good thing Rapture's getting buffed then! You should be so lucky, Mistweaver's had their spell costs increased by the largest ever value I've witnessed in a mini-patch.

To even complain about the light nerfs Disc is taking when it's so ridiculously ahead of every other healer is beyond comprehension in my mind. Arguing that "Disc is fine" because it's bad in PvP (which it isn't, not really) or because Holy is bad is also another stupid argument. Really, I think it's laughable people even discuss the PvE ramifications of these changes when they're not even doing content where cutting edge setups are necessary (yes, this means I'm saying unless you're doing cutting edge content and you're using stacked setups to compete on a world rank level, your opinion means nothing).

There is a reason why guilds use 3 Discs, 2 Pallies, and generally 1 of another healer nowadays.

Seriously, just go back to your monk forum and cry there instead. You are even trying to argue that disc isn't performing poorly in pvp and don't deserve a single buff there until you precious mistweaver is at the top (in both pve and pvp I assume). You have no ability to look at things from anything but your own perspective (hell, you even cry about shit that won't even affect you, cause trust me discs won't be stealing spots in pvp teams from mistweavers even with a few small buffs).

[kouby]

It's a good thing Rapture's getting buffed then! You should be so lucky, Mistweaver's had their spell costs increased by the largest ever value I've witnessed in a mini-patch.

To even complain about the light nerfs Disc is taking when it's so ridiculously ahead of every other healer is beyond comprehension in my mind. Arguing that "Disc is fine" because it's bad in PvP (which it isn't, not really) or because Holy is bad is also another stupid argument. Really, I think it's laughable people even discuss the PvE ramifications of these changes when they're not even doing content where cutting edge setups are necessary (yes, this means I'm saying unless you're doing cutting edge content and you're using stacked setups to compete on a world rank level, your opinion means nothing).

There is a reason why guilds use 3 Discs, 2 Pallies, and generally 1 of another healer nowadays.

Now this is only a question, please don't answer with more than a yes or no. But do you get off on whining? Does your dick go hard when you think about people reading your whining? Or is it simply for the pure waste of broadband that you winge and winge and winge like a 10 year old who didn't get the present he wanted?

[Anastacy]

It's a good thing Rapture's getting buffed then! You should be so lucky, Mistweaver's had their spell costs increased by the largest ever value I've witnessed in a mini-patch.

To even complain about the light nerfs Disc is taking when it's so ridiculously ahead of every other healer is beyond comprehension in my mind. Arguing that "Disc is fine" because it's bad in PvP (which it isn't, not really) or because Holy is bad is also another stupid argument. Really, I think it's laughable people even discuss the PvE ramifications of these changes when they're not even doing content where cutting edge setups are necessary (yes, this means I'm saying unless you're doing cutting edge content and you're using stacked setups to compete on a world rank level, your opinion means nothing).

There is a reason why guilds use 3 Discs, 2 Pallies, and generally 1 of another healer nowadays.

There isn't anymore cutting edge content, right now. Heroics are only "cutting edge" the first 2-3 weeks they're released; everyone's geared up pretty good after that.

[kouby]

There isn't anymore cutting edge content, right now. Heroics are only "cutting edge" the first 2-3 weeks they're released; everyone's geared up pretty good after that.

No you don't get it, this guy was topping his guilds meters when monks were OP, now he doesn't top them anymore so the only logical explanation he can think off is that the class now topping the meters instead of him should get nerfed into the ground.
Other monks are doing fine? Naaah, if that guy can't top meters no one can.
Lots of guilds still have monks and some even don't have any discs? Naaah that can't be true, only what that guy sees in his guild is true, everything else is urban legend.
Inflated ego? Naaaah. Oh wait...

[Meaks]

Mana returns from the current solace incarnation:

- assuming we spend 25% of our time casting poh with ss, that would leave us with 4.5 solace casts available. Rounding to 4, that is 4% mana per minute
- we dont loose shadowfiend. Balancing shadow fiend in terms of mana per minute is a bit more complicated, as it depends on fight duratiuon, but lets take a media of a third of the 24% it restores, and say its 8%
- we dont spend mana on holy fires anymore - they cost 1.8% mana per use, so 4*1.8%=7.2% mana saved
-----------
Total: 4%+8%+7.2%=19.2% mana per minute gained, which is slightly more than the 14.6% mindbender provides, but at the cost of 3 extra gcds.

I'm not sure I like how you account for holy fire mana cost in that. I'm not totally convinced "mana gained" and "mana saved" are in the same boat exactly. Regardless, we won't necessarily be needing to holy fire on cd, but even if we do, you don't account for evangelism on holy fire mana cost.

Say 1 of those is 1.8%, the rest are 1.35%

Puts you down to 17.85%, and yes at the cost of an additional 3 gcds. (~ 3/40 = 7.5%!)

[HamSandwichFace]

The problem with Disc in PvP is a separate issue from Disc in PvE.

If you want to buff Disc in PvP, tie some stuff to being crit, tie some stuff to focussed will. Disc in PvE does not need to benefit from any PvP buffs.

Why is Disc poor in PvP? Is it because of survivability? Is it because of mana issues? Is it due to poor synergy and loss of some key skills (that were baseline like PI, Mind Blast/Spike etc).

[Maleric]

I suspect it will. I also suspect there's no way to fix it then either, unless they slash priest mana costs or add a new form of regen for both Holy AND disc.

I pretty much agree, but we'll see.

If you want to buff Disc in PvP, tie some stuff to being crit, tie some stuff to focussed will. Disc in PvE does not need to benefit from any PvP buffs.

Why is Disc poor in PvP? Is it because of survivability? Is it because of mana issues? Is it due to poor synergy and loss of some key skills (that were baseline like PI, Mind Blast/Spike etc).

Disc's PvP problems mostly have to do with outright losing important abilities (Mana Burn, Mind Blast/Spike), having them nerfed in to the ground (Mass Dispel, Dispel Magic), or having them tied to talents/glyphs that we usually don't have room to take (Mass Dispel casttime reduction, Shadow Word: Death backlash damage, Mind Control). The spec has all of its past weaknesses (poor mobility, weak crowd control), none of its past strengths, and the only things it's gotten to compensate are one additional unremarkable cc (Void Tendrils or Psyfiend) and Void Shift life swap.

Unfortunately, "tie stuff to crit and focused will" isn't really a solution and doesn't appear to be based on an understanding of the spec.

[Deleted]

I'm not sure I like how you account for holy fire mana cost in that. I'm not totally convinced "mana gained" and "mana saved" are in the same boat exactly. Regardless, we won't necessarily be needing to holy fire on cd, but even if we do, you don't account for evangelism on holy fire mana cost.

Say 1 of those is 1.8%, the rest are 1.35%

Puts you down to 17.85%, and yes at the cost of an additional 3 gcds. (~ 3/40 = 7.5%!)

If your general gameplay does not use holy fire on cd (except spirit shell duration), evidently the new solace is a pointless choice. Myself, having not only HF glyphed to be instant but also smite to gain 20% on targets with the HF dot, I use it pretty much on cd - so from that point of view, replacing it with Solace will just equate to the gains I described. For me, the fact that I wont spend the mana on HF is a net gain, the only time that wont be the case is when you are already at full mana, which doesn't happen a lot after the first 20 seconds of the fight. The extra gcds - well, those are arguable too, since I'd be using them for holy fire anyway. What I described was a "best case scenario" for the talent.

I'm not sure I understand your comment about evangelism: as far as I understood, the new solace will interact with spells and abilities in the same way as holy fire, so it will stack evangelism as well?

I agree the new form for solace isn't in the slightest amazing: it is limited in actual use to disc priests (it does absolutely nothing for holy, the talent is even more pointless now than it was before), and not even to all disc priests - only those with a more aggressive style of dpsing when possible (which I am). Still, it actually becomes a possible choice for somebody. I personally ditched it pretty fast at the start of the expansion (used it as holy tbh, as disc is completely bogus), and I'm not sure anybody still uses it at all.

I'm pretty sure these are just sketches, and the final patch notes might differ quite a lot. Until february (?) things can change a lot.

[Anastacy]

No you don't get it, this guy was topping his guilds meters when monks were OP, now he doesn't top them anymore so the only logical explanation he can think off is that the class now topping the meters instead of him should get nerfed into the ground.
Other monks are doing fine? Naaah, if that guy can't top meters no one can.
Lots of guilds still have monks and some even don't have any discs? Naaah that can't be true, only what that guy sees in his guild is true, everything else is urban legend.
Inflated ego? Naaaah. Oh wait...

No, I understood all that already.

[Meaks]

If your general gameplay does not use holy fire on cd (except spirit shell duration), evidently the new solace is a pointless choice. Myself, having not only HF glyphed to be instant but also smite to gain 20% on targets with the HF dot, I use it pretty much on cd - so from that point of view, replacing it with Solace will just equate to the gains I described. For me, the fact that I wont spend the mana on HF is a net gain, the only time that wont be the case is when you are already at full mana, which doesn't happen a lot after the first 20 seconds of the fight. The extra gcds - well, those are arguable too, since I'd be using them for holy fire anyway. What I described was a "best case scenario" for the talent.

I'm not sure I understand your comment about evangelism: as far as I understood, the new solace will interact with spells and abilities in the same way as holy fire, so it will stack evangelism as well?

I agree the new form for solace isn't in the slightest amazing: it is limited in actual use to disc priests (it does absolutely nothing for holy, the talent is even more pointless now than it was before), and not even to all disc priests - only those with a more aggressive style of dpsing when possible (which I am). Still, it actually becomes a possible choice for somebody. I personally ditched it pretty fast at the start of the expansion (used it as holy tbh, as disc is completely bogus), and I'm not sure anybody still uses it at all.

I'm pretty sure these are just sketches, and the final patch notes might differ quite a lot. Until february (?) things can change a lot.

Yeah you are right, but there are times where you are not using the GCD to holy fire and instead are spamming PoH and using a spare gcd for rapture.
And what I meant about evangelism was just an error in your calculation. Holy fire only costs 1.8% of base mana at 0 evangelism stacks. At 5 stacks it costs 1.26%. You are counting more "savings" than really exist by using Solace. A more realistic assumption would be 1 cast at 1.8% mana, and the rest at 1.26% (smite in between) for a total of 5.58% base mana total for 4 casts. I made an error when I said it was 1.35% earlier. Using these numbers, that puts your solace mana gains/savings calculation at 17.58% base mana/minute. So a ~3% mana difference vs mindbender (nice round number considering it is at the cost of 3 gcds, each giving 1% mana back!)

I know it is nitpicky, but the talents in question are pretty close numerically.

I'm more irked by the fact that we have to take solace to have our instant "holy fire" with the removal of the glyph. Maybe it's intended to force more priests to this new talent and to be an indirect nerf to our damage whilst healing, as mindbender does a healthy amount of damage and solace increases our dps by exactly 0.


Off topic: I don't understand why HamSandwichFace is posting in the priest forums. He obviously does not play one and doesn't understand one enough to contribute positively to the discussions. More often than not we have to spend time debunking false assertions or irrelevant anecdotes ("my priests never cast penance!" - yeah, right - check out what our 4pc bonus is)

[Darkener]

We won't really understand the impact of the changes to PvE until we get to test it, but on the surface it appears that Solace is a talent for Disc Atonement Healers (more efficiency), Mindbender is a talent for Disc and Holy Traditional Healers (less intrusive), and FDCL is a complete waste of a talent for healers.

[Deleted]

And what I meant about evangelism was just an error in your calculation. Holy fire only costs 1.8% of base mana at 0 evangelism stacks. At 5 stacks it costs 1.26%. You are counting more "savings" than really exist by using Solace. A more realistic assumption would be 1 cast at 1.8% mana, and the rest at 1.26% (smite in between) for a total of 5.58% base mana total for 4 casts. I made an error when I said it was 1.35% earlier. Using these numbers, that puts your solace mana gains/savings calculation at 17.58% base mana/minute. So a ~3% mana difference vs mindbender (nice round number considering it is at the cost of 3 gcds, each giving 1% mana back!)

I know it is nitpicky, but the talents in question are pretty close numerically.

I'm more irked by the fact that we have to take solace to have our instant "holy fire" with the removal of the glyph. Maybe it's intended to force more priests to this new talent and to be an indirect nerf to our damage whilst healing, as mindbender does a healthy amount of damage and solace increases our dps by exactly 0.

You are right about the evangelism mana costs reduced, I stand corrected, completely over-seen that. And yes, it does feel like they are making a change for the sake of it, as the differences between the current situation and the new one are actually minimal - until you realize the current situation is actually being taken away from you.

[Deleted]

I agree with removing the short term buffs benefit - and as you say too, it was deffo coming. For the rest however, I dont know - and I dont think either you do, how much those procs were actually worth for: I have played disc at the start of the expansion, and I can tell you straight: 150% rapture WITH short term spirit buffs was not enough, not even close to enough. Playing holy was a breeze in comparison, and I've played holy prolly 10 times in 2 years. Personally, I think the 200% spirit proc was fine - but then again, these are just the first patch notes, and PTR is PTR for a reason, to test things. Community feedback is often fueled by personal feelings, and we all know how "balanced" those are. If I were to change things according to most community feedback, we'd prolly need to delete some classes - after all, wasn't so guy around here even saying that they should plain simple destroy disc in pve? There's your community feedback. Sure it has its value, but not to decide things.

But that's my point exactly! Disc was poor at the start, rapture was 150% AND DA & PoH were significantly weaker. But this is the exact issue, while buffing disc to 200% or 250% may indeed make lower ilvl disc better and on par with others, it scales stupidly well and thus the reason for my post. Remove % set at fixed amount or set a very small % & a fixed amount. Either would fix rapture, it would be balanced at lower levels and higher levels (ilvl) if using the same system as most other healing spells, i.e. "Heals target for 20k + 50% of spell power" can be turned into "Restores 15k + 30% of spirit as mana" or whatever for rapture, that way it still scales slightly with gear in the same way a shaman's mana regen scales with crit.

TLDR we are on the same page

[HamSandwichFace]

But that's my point exactly! Disc was poor at the start, rapture was 150% AND DA & PoH were significantly weaker. But this is the exact issue, while buffing disc to 200% or 250% may indeed make lower ilvl disc better and on par with others, it scales stupidly well and thus the reason for my post. Remove % set at fixed amount or set a very small % & a fixed amount. Either would fix rapture, it would be balanced at lower levels and higher levels (ilvl) if using the same system as most other healing spells, i.e. "Heals target for 20k + 50% of spell power" can be turned into "Restores 15k + 30% of spirit as mana" or whatever for rapture, that way it still scales slightly with gear in the same way a shaman's mana regen scales with crit.

TLDR we are on the same page

This is a good post. Varda, I wonder, what would happen if Rapture was just a passive which gave you a free PW:S every 10 seconds instead? At the moment Disc has 4 ways of regenerating mana compared to Shaman (3), Paladins (2), Druids (2), Monks (2) and Holy Priests (3). Does Disc really need 4 ways of regenerating mana or is it time for a complete redesign on Rapture to allow the Priest to use PW:S, for free, every 10 seconds (and for PVP purposes lets say it ignores Weakened Soul) and have Disc with 3 ways of regenerating mana.

I don't buy the Shaman regen scaling via crit because it scales very poorly compared to say Mistweaver regen via crit: generally (outside of Riptide) a Shaman will have 2 or 3 spare globals every 12-15 seconds. This isn't enough to make crit a valuable secondary worth pursuing, but it's only taken because with AS/5% raid buff the next haste breakpoint (after 3.8k~) is unreachable and mastery starts to go downhill after 50% due to the negative implications on the Shaman's own healing and what is actually possible to heal in a raiding scene (in whichever context you take: LFR, Normal, HC). Where as Mistweaver regen via crit is a flat rate to gain more mana tea stacks equal to your crit chance (so for example mine is 22%~ or something) which helps a lot more than the Shaman methods. Resurgence is of course a nice bonus.

A worry I have is that Disc excels in high levels of gear mostly due to the nature of skills. I guess one could argue Disc has always been balanced around knowing the fight but I do think DA is too powerful at 50% on skills, and I (I'm levelling a Disc-ee at the moment, at least continuing after New Years) feel that a much better balance could be derived if all spells generated the DA but it started at 20% or 25%, it would at least make up for the fact Disc's heals are notably weaker. I agree with many posters that Disc is in a bad spot currently via tank healing, and I think making DA just a passive shield bonus would go some ways to help this (on top of the free PW:S too, I guess) though this of course has the issue of forcing the best secondary stat to be mastery (it already is, and this would make it stronger).

I think scaling also needs to account the way PoH and DA synergise. I'm sorry to repeat myself but I think a DA at 50%, on every single PoH, is just going to be ridiculous (it already is) in upcoming tiers. So much so that it'll dwarf every other healer. Illumination will suffer from the same problems I suspect. Blizzard probably shouldn't balance around a raid setup that uses 2 Pallies/2 Discs on every fight because that would essentially force guilds into taking that setup for stuff, however I think Blizzard needs to be more acutely aware of how the scaling of absorption effects (most notably PoH + DA + mastery scaling) in a raid scenario.

While we have little to go on, I do think Blizzard is trying to actively address this in the next tier though: normally we see raid damage tick every 1 (or 2) second(s), however in the next tier (judging by the 'leaked' journal) raid damage is going to tick every .25 (.5) sec for 25% (50%) of the amount which would make healers stronger scaled around HoTs and 'passive healing' (Sanctuary, Efflo, SCK, Healing Rain etc) stronger (on the meters at least) while the hard-casting classes (PoH as a perfect example, Holy Radiance as another) will be possibly weaker, but the absorption part would still remain powerful.

I actually think doing the above is a better solution that totally gutting absorbs, they're fun (although my SO dislikes the fact (on a Paladin) that the absorbs aren't counted as green numbers in the Blizzard interface) but I think something does need to be done.

I have a question (this is serious):

Does DA's value derive from the base heal value of a spell or the effective healing done?

[Maleric]

This is a good post. Varda, I wonder, what would happen if Rapture was just a passive which gave you a free PW:S every 10 seconds instead? At the moment Disc has 4 ways of regenerating mana compared to Shaman (3), Paladins (2), Druids (2), Monks (2) and Holy Priests (3). Does Disc really need 4 ways of regenerating mana or is it time for a complete redesign on Rapture to allow the Priest to use PW:S, for free, every 10 seconds (and for PVP purposes lets say it ignores Weakened Soul) and have Disc with 3 ways of regenerating mana.

I don't buy the Shaman regen scaling via crit because it scales very poorly compared to say Mistweaver regen via crit: generally (outside of Riptide) a Shaman will have 2 or 3 spare globals every 12-15 seconds. This isn't enough to make crit a valuable secondary worth pursuing, but it's only taken because with AS/5% raid buff the next haste breakpoint (after 3.8k~) is unreachable and mastery starts to go downhill after 50% due to the negative implications on the Shaman's own healing and what is actually possible to heal in a raiding scene (in whichever context you take: LFR, Normal, HC). Where as Mistweaver regen via crit is a flat rate to gain more mana tea stacks equal to your crit chance (so for example mine is 22%~ or something) which helps a lot more than the Shaman methods. Resurgence is of course a nice bonus.

A worry I have is that Disc excels in high levels of gear mostly due to the nature of skills. I guess one could argue Disc has always been balanced around knowing the fight but I do think DA is too powerful at 50% on skills, and I (I'm levelling a Disc-ee at the moment, at least continuing after New Years) feel that a much better balance could be derived if all spells generated the DA but it started at 20% or 25%, it would at least make up for the fact Disc's heals are notably weaker. I agree with many posters that Disc is in a bad spot currently via tank healing, and I think making DA just a passive shield bonus would go some ways to help this (on top of the free PW:S too, I guess) though this of course has the issue of forcing the best secondary stat to be mastery (it already is, and this would make it stronger).

I think scaling also needs to account the way PoH and DA synergise. I'm sorry to repeat myself but I think a DA at 50%, on every single PoH, is just going to be ridiculous (it already is) in upcoming tiers. So much so that it'll dwarf every other healer. Illumination will suffer from the same problems I suspect. Blizzard probably shouldn't balance around a raid setup that uses 2 Pallies/2 Discs on every fight because that would essentially force guilds into taking that setup for stuff, however I think Blizzard needs to be more acutely aware of how the scaling of absorption effects (most notably PoH + DA + mastery scaling) in a raid scenario.

While we have little to go on, I do think Blizzard is trying to actively address this in the next tier though: normally we see raid damage tick every 1 (or 2) second(s), however in the next tier (judging by the 'leaked' journal) raid damage is going to tick every .25 (.5) sec for 25% (50%) of the amount which would make healers stronger scaled around HoTs and 'passive healing' (Sanctuary, Efflo, SCK, Healing Rain etc) stronger (on the meters at least) while the hard-casting classes (PoH as a perfect example, Holy Radiance as another) will be possibly weaker, but the absorption part would still remain powerful.

I actually think doing the above is a better solution that totally gutting absorbs, they're fun (although my SO dislikes the fact (on a Paladin) that the absorbs aren't counted as green numbers in the Blizzard interface) but I think something does need to be done.

I have a question (this is serious):

Does DA's value derive from the base heal value of a spell or the effective healing done?

So you think DA is overpowered, but you don't know how it works?

[Blachshma]

blizzard for the past 3 expansions is pretty much contempt at only making disc the viable PvP spec for healing, and holy borderline success for PvE.

Problem is, in both Cata and MoP disc has been far superior to holy in both PvE and PvP, with better regen and more output and utility.

[kouby]

A worry I have is that Disc excels in high levels of gear mostly due to the nature of skills. I guess one could argue Disc has always been balanced around knowing the fight but I do think DA is too powerful at 50% on skills, and I (I'm levelling a Disc-ee at the moment, at least continuing after New Years) feel that a much better balance could be derived if all spells generated the DA but it started at 20% or 25%, it would at least make up for the fact Disc's heals are notably weaker. I agree with many posters that Disc is in a bad spot currently via tank healing, and I think making DA just a passive shield bonus would go some ways to help this (on top of the free PW:S too, I guess) though this of course has the issue of forcing the best secondary stat to be mastery (it already is, and this would make it stronger).

Hey nice idea! Make discs into holy paladins without the beacon. Përfect.

I think scaling also needs to account the way PoH and DA synergise. I'm sorry to repeat myself but I think a DA at 50%, on every single PoH, is just going to be ridiculous (it already is) in upcoming tiers. So much so that it'll dwarf every other healer. Illumination will suffer from the same problems I suspect. Blizzard probably shouldn't balance around a raid setup that uses 2 Pallies/2 Discs on every fight because that would essentially force guilds into taking that setup for stuff, however I think Blizzard needs to be more acutely aware of how the scaling of absorption effects (most notably PoH + DA + mastery scaling) in a raid scenario.

2discs and 2 palys is a stupidly retarded raid comp.

While we have little to go on, I do think Blizzard is trying to actively address this in the next tier though: normally we see raid damage tick every 1 (or 2) second(s), however in the next tier (judging by the 'leaked' journal) raid damage is going to tick every .25 (.5) sec for 25% (50%) of the amount which would make healers stronger scaled around HoTs and 'passive healing' (Sanctuary, Efflo, SCK, Healing Rain etc) stronger (on the meters at least) while the hard-casting classes (PoH as a perfect example, Holy Radiance as another) will be possibly weaker, but the absorption part would still remain powerful.

I actually think doing the above is a better solution that totally gutting absorbs, they're fun (although my SO dislikes the fact (on a Paladin) that the absorbs aren't counted as green numbers in the Blizzard interface) but I think something does need to be done.

I have a question (this is serious):

Does DA's value derive from the base heal value of a spell or the effective healing done?

So wait, let me get this straight. You've spent the last 2 weeks polluting the priest board with your suggestions on how to gut disc priests into oblivion, you keep on going on and on about poh... But you didn't even take 30 seconds to read the fucking tooltip? How could you be more of a retard?

[HamSandwichFace]

2discs and 2 palys is a stupidly retarded raid comp.

Maybe you'd have the authority to make that call if you were actually doing heroic content at a relatively fast rate babes.

[Deleted]

Maybe you'd have the authority to make that call if you were actually doing heroic content at a relatively fast rate babes.

Maybe you'd have the authority to speak about priest balancing if you had any clue how the class works.

[HamSandwichFace]

Maybe you'd have the authority to speak about priest balancing if you had any clue how the class works.

I know how it works. I played a Priest in DS HC and it was pretty boring, hence why I swapped.

Anyone who raids with a Disc Priest knows how utterly ridiculous they are at the moment, and the fact they're receiving the smallest nerfs ever is quite laughable. Let's take a look at history:

Sunwell > Shaman dominance? Dealt with in WotLK
LK HC > Disc dominance? Dealt with in Cata
FL HC > Druid dominance? Dealt with in DS
DS HC > Paladin dominance? Dealt with in MoP
T14 HC > Monk dominance? Dealt with in 5.1
T14 v2 > Disc dominance? ???????????????????????????