[Priest] 5.2 PTR notes

[Meaks]

The only way to deal with a professional troll is to just not respond. Time to just let this thread die.

[Venaliter]

Counting regeneration cooldowns is pointless, all that matters is mana in and mana out.

Yes.

What matters in mana in and out? Why do Disc Priests get in the most mana then, and in return have the cheapest spell costs?

Because Power Word: Shield is VERY expensive to cast, and we are designed around casting it often.

Is there a reason why PoH, the strongest AoE heal in the game, is also the cheapest?

Yeah, because it's not a "smart" heal. And that IS a limitation.

I would want to see Rapture stay at 200% (outside of spirit procs of course)

I think pretty much everyone agrees with you here (as we all have said many times)

as well as the SS nerf.

Again, we've all agreed with you on this. SS was too good.

<snip> DA reverted back to 30% I really can't see how anyone could disagree with that (unless they enjoy totally dominating every single aspect of every single fight).

There's been no testing done yet, so everyone iwho plays a priest (or in their right mind) would disagree with you. DA *may* be lowered if Disc if still too strong, but that would be a very tricky nerf because DA is now the only thing holding the spec up. Prayer of Healing, SS, Single target spells are all balanced around DA. If they lower the spell, it probably couldn't go below 40% without Disc's being sat for raids. And I'm dead serious.

Mindbender is an unncessary bonus for Disc, as is Solace

Solace sucks. Holy(PvE) needs mindbender. Disc in PvP needs mindbender. Holy in PvP needs mindbender...I'd say the talent is very necessary.

and on top of that you have Hymn of Hope. Ironically, Hymn of Hope (in our raids) is only ever called when other healers need it.

GOOD LORD, YOU MEAN WE HAVE UTILITY? This must be fixed. Now.

[HamSandwichFace]

There's been no testing done yet, so everyone iwho plays a priest (or in their right mind) would disagree with you.
DA *may* be lowered if Disc if still too strong, but that would be a very tricky nerf because DA is now the only thing holding the spec up. Prayer of Healing, SS, Single target spells are all balanced around DA. If they lower the spell, it probably couldn't go below 40% without Disc's being sat for raids. And I'm dead serious.

Why was Disc fine during DS/FL with the 30% DA then?

Also... about the need to cast PW:S often?

PW:S has a mana cost of 18.5k and you use it every 12 seconds (outside of saving people of course). Renewing Mists has a mana cost of 19.5k and Mistweavers are *forced* to use it every 8 seconds.

SS also needs to be changed so that multiple SSs cannot stack and in addition the absorption cannot exceed 50% of your total HP. No class, using any skill, should totally have the ability to have the raid ignore an entire fight mechanic. I complained about the 4 Mage 3 DK tactic as well for heroic Will of the Emperor (until it naturally got nerfed) because having certain skills totally (and I mean -entirely-) cause a raid to disregard any fight mechanic is stupid. It's also why I hate the dispell perk that's attached to Revival. It makes Revival a super insane CD on fights like HC Empress, HC Tsulong etc. It's completely ridiculous. Wouldn't you agree?

[Meaks]

I'm sure blizzards balance team is keeping a close eye on this thread and values your ideas ham. We are all so glad that you are here to help balance the game! We'd all be so lost without you.

[Maleric]

What matters in mana in and out? Why do Disc Priests get in the most mana then, and in return have the cheapest spell costs?

Citation needed?

[Venaliter]

Why was Disc fine during DS/FL with the 30% DA then?

Oh my god. Dude. That was a different expansion.

Either way, it's now obvious as hell you are trolling, and I'm reporting you as such.

[shanthi]

SS also needs to be changed so that multiple SSs cannot stack

While I agree that multiple discipline priests' spirit shells stacking could pose a problem, there needs to be a more creative solution than simply "make it impossible for two or more discipline priests to heal in the same raid" especially in 10m. If they can't shield the same targets or shell the same targets, they simply can't co-exist with any level of effectiveness, which is a limitation that's far too harsh and isn't shared by another healing specs (I'm not saying multiples of other specs are necessarily optimal, but they don't each completely lock the others out of their most effective spells).

[Venaliter]

While I agree that multiple discipline priests' spirit shells stacking could pose a problem, there needs to be a more creative solution than simply "make it impossible for two or more discipline priests to heal in the same raid" especially in 10m.

"Weakened Shell" - unable to spirit shelled for 15 seconds, after gaining spirit shell? Might be technically challenging, but it's pretty damn similar to PW:S and Weakened Soul.

[HamSandwichFace]

While I agree that multiple discipline priests' spirit shells stacking could pose a problem, there needs to be a more creative solution than simply "make it impossible for two or more discipline priests to heal in the same raid" especially in 10m. If they can't shield the same targets or shell the same targets, they simply can't co-exist with any level of effectiveness, which is a limitation that's far too harsh and isn't shared by another healing specs (I'm not saying multiples of other specs are necessarily optimal, but they don't each completely lock the others out of their most effective spells).

This is true. There isn't a very good solution outside of putting a longer CD on SS, but no Priest wants that. It either needs to be (smaller) capped value or not allow multiple instances of SS to stack.

Also ... why does the expansion change the fact that for (pretty much forever) 30% DA has been fine, but now Disc needs 50%? Seriously, what changed? The raid mechanics are the same. Priests are in a better position mana-wise (I agree Rapture at the start was a bit poorly designed, especially with the massive gimpiness regarding spirit values) and Priests are in a better position with regards to CDs.

Weakened Shell, I like that. It might need to apply the debuff after the existing SS fades though, otherwise wouldn't it be impossible for a Priest to stack SS on 1 target (say a tank or a group with PoH) due to the debuff stopping it? It might suck but the way I see it is this, Blizzard has three options to make 'raid mechanics' challenging:

> balance around SS (in such a way that raid damage bypasses SS, which sucks)
> balance involving SS (in such a way that raid damage takes into account a full SS absorb, which sucks)
> balance around no SS (which sucks)

In almost any instance, a raid group is punished for not bringing a Priest. SS is just a broken mechanic for this very reason - there is no balancing for it.

[Deleted]

You're wrong. Here's how I was counting it:

Shaman > water shield + MTT + spirit
Monk > Spirit + Mana Tea (Chi doesn't count because you need to spend mana for Chi, and Chi costs/spells are balanced around mana expenditure)
Pally > Spirit + DP (arguably LoH glyph) (again, HP doesn't count because you need to use mana to get HP and HP is balanced around that mana expenditure)
Holy Priest > Spirit + Fiend/Solace + Hope
Disc > Spirit + Fiend/Solace + Hope + Rapture

I dont think I'm wrong, I just think you are very bias about what to accept as mana sources and what not. Whether you think they are efficient or not, they are still mana regen mechanics.

Shamans do have the possibility of glyphing lightning bolt and gain pretty nice mana on fights with dmg bonuses, just like disc has the option of using atonement on those more successful than others. Sure, its apples and oranges, but that's why we are different classes. You can argue that its not good enough regen, but not that it doesn't exist.You should also check http://www.wowhead.com/spell=16196/resurgence . So they do have 2 baseline mana regen mechanics (water shield and resurgence), and a third that is a raid cd.

Monks do have chi. Yes, they need to spend mana on jab or some other abilities to get it, but from my very little knowledge of monks, they get chi out of abilities that also heal (including jab via eminence). You say that you cant count chi because you need to spend mana to gain it, but you ignore the fact that disc needs to spend mana on shields to get rapture? Again, you can argue the mechanic is not balanced enough, but not that it doesn't exist. So you do have 2 baseline mana regen mechanics - mana tea and chi, and can benefit from a raid cd brought by other classes in the same measure they benefit from it. Unless you are worried about healing 5 mans or raids formed of druids, palas and monks exclusively, I dont see the issue.

Same for paladins. Why do you think they are one of the better healers (in terms of mana) in pvp? Because their free resource can keep them going for quite a while, and it cant be killed/cced/dispelled. I didn't play a pala in mop, but I did play one in cata and holy power was deffo a resource. Also, you should check this too: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=20165 .

I dont think the difference between costs of spells for each specc is balanced around free resources - or at least not alone. If what you say is true, then holy priests should be at worst behind disc ones and ahead of all classes, which is hardly the case. Paladin heals are more expensive because of beacon. Afaik some of their old talents also got baked in current ones - like a large part of the haste they used to get from judging. The way mastery works also plays a part: for disc mastery might be awesome for poh spam, but not so great for anything else. Truth the only reason disc is good on meters is poh/spirit shell, it has nothing to do with flash heal or greater heal costing less mana - and that is the real problem of the specc, the fact that ir relies 80% on one spell to perform, because nothing else can.

You also have to take into consideration the granularity/conditions/effects of those mana regen mechanics. I cant borrow your chi, you can get mana from my hymn of hope though. It's not my mana regen ability, all the healers (and other classes with a mana bar that can bask in the glory of this wonderful spell, like arcane mages!) can benefit from it. Just as you can argue that some of your abilities work poorly, I can also argue that this particular one roots me to the ground, and has a 6 mins cd that will go to narnia if some shit dropped on me and I had to move. Mana tide at least is fair - it gives all healers what they need, and it doesn't need a cuddle channel, but that also has to be considered something all healers get in a raid, not just the shaman. Give me a glyph that limits hymn of hope to myself alone and then you can call it mine. Also give me a glyph that makes me able to drink a little from my hymn of hope every time I use some spell like you do with mana tea, and then you can compare them.

No-one noticed Priests dominance in MSV because Priests didn't become the superpower they are now until Monks got gutted into the ground

With all due respect, this shows you have no clue where disc priests were in the first month of mists of pandaria, which, since I gathered that you play a monk, is no wonder, you were prolly too busy basking in the glory of your class. There were bosses in msv where there wouldn't be a disc priest in the first 800 healers on wol - with all the other classes represented before them. On some bosses the top disc priest in the world was on position 200 overall, and that was pretty decent. We weren't competing with mistweaver monks, we were competing with blood dks .

Again, I'm not saying that disc priests are fine as they are. Still, I think your approach on the matter is bias and simplistic. I also have a feeling that the disc domination on wol has something to do with the nature of absorbs and overgearing encounters, which has always been a disc feat. I do believe that balancing classes is more correctly done on ptr, on new and not overgeared encounters, because progress is what matters, not farming.

[Deleted]

Ham, the format of your writing suggests you are not stupid. The content though, does on occasion, veer the other way.

Do you understand the fact that encounters are balanced around what healers collectively are able to do?

A good example of this would be to take a ~485 ilvl 10 man to pre nerf Grand Empress HC. And because it's a 10 man, lets say you don't have either a warrior or shaman (entirely possible and also the situation I faced when we got there in my raid group).
So far, we simply have a 10 man with no shaman or warrior, and thus no rallying cry or ancestral vigor. Now, don't take a single Disc either. I'd wish you the best of luck healing that.

In that ilvl, pre nerf, not gonna happen, ever, with any combination of Paladin, Monk, Druid, HPriest. Hell, we even spoke with Paragon after our first week of progress (when iirc only 3 10 mans worldwide had killed it , and all those also raided 25's to gear) and the basis of the response was: "you need the raid ~500 ilvl to survive explosions consistently.

..............

Your assertion that secondary resources for Paladins and Monks (druids conveniently ignored) do not count because "you have to spend mana to gain them" is utterly absurd, gave me quite a laugh that.
So your cheapest heal as a monk, that you will use and will generate Chi, doesn't count at all? Not only that, but your cheap heal generates chi, which you then spend on "free heals" and for each set of 4 chi spent you then gain the opportunity of 4% of your total mana pool back, and this is irrelevant?

Hilarious.

Counting Hymn of Hope as a priest regen tool is disingenuous at best. Ignoring Telluric Currents, but including glyphed LoH?

Here's another list for you:

Shaman: Spirit/Water Shield/Resurgence/MTT/TC/HoH (potentially) 6
DPriest: Spirit/Rapture/Bender or Solace(+fiend)/HoH (potentially) 4
HPriest: Spirit/Bender or Solace(+fiend)/HoH (potentially) 3
Monk: Spirit/Mana Tea/Chi/HoH (potentially) 3 ignoring your secondary resource
Paladin: Spirit/Plea/Holy Power/HoH (potentially) 3 ignoring the secondary resource
Druid: Spirit/Innervate/Clearcasting/HoH (potentially) 3 ignoring the secondary resource

Now lets strip out hymn of hope, since all healers can benefit from this (and the casting priest may not), strip out spirit too, since all have meditation. We'll leave MTT in though since the shaman will. We'll conveniently ignore secondary resources too.

Shaman: 3, or 4 with TC
DPriest: 2
HPriest: 1
Monk: 1
Paladin: 1, or 2 with LoH
Druid: 1

Hmm, but we still have some 'maybe' tools in there, not as simple as it could be. But then again what else could be considered regen tools.

Vital Mists
Chi torpedo
Thunder Focus Tea
Inner Focus
Serendipity
Evangelism
Divine purpose.........blah blah, the list could go on and on and....do you want to then add in damage reduction CD's which reduce the need to spend mana?

Whilst we have a system with a huge number of mana saving abilities, a dozen+ regen tools, and 3 healers using a secondary resource system (and the other class, priest, does not) there will never be balance, there will always be discord amongst players.

As others have said; Mana spent and Mana gained is the only worthwhile way to look at it.

I do wonder having typed this whether anyone has actually attempted to model healer regen, including secondary resource generation/consumption. No doubt it would incredibly complex and time consuming, could be interesting though.

[HamSandwichFace]

HC Empress was an obtuse fight. Required 8 healers on 25 man, required 4 on 10 man. It shouldn't be used to gauge a balance, especially since I think 10 man was harder than 25 man for that fight.

Also, the time spent casting LBs with the TC glyph provides worse regen than not healing at all if you were to use LB twice in a row. The TC glyph is just there for flavour if you ever want to deal damage as a healer. The TC glyph doesn't beat "doing nothing for 5 seconds" in the 'mana gained' department. Messed up, right?

I'm still trying to figure out why pushing DA back to 30% would cause every Disc Priest in the world to be sat.

[Venaliter]

Ham, the format of your writing suggests you are not stupid. The content though, does on occasion, veer the other way.

He's trolling. Pretty obvious at this point. Did a good job of straddling the line until page 8 or so. Just report him, place him on ignore, and move on.

[HamSandwichFace]

I still haven't had an answer lol.

Why would reverting DA from 50% > 30% "destroy" the spec?

[Arlee]

Lets get back on the topic of the 5.2 PTR notes. If you want to have side discussions about how a spec works make a thread for that (or read the sticky guide) this is not the place.

[Yvaelle]

Lets get back on the topic of the 5.2 PTR notes. If you want to have side discussions about how a spec works make a thread for that (or read the sticky guide) this is not the place.

Thanks Arlee, I kept coming back to this and reading it - and not knowing how to handle it. I agree with Venaliter that Ham is clearly trolling, but all his posts feign naivete to a point I can't really infract: should have just tried telling them to stop ^^

[Deleted]

Blue tweet

(PvE 25 hc) Doing more healing as Disc spamming PoH then Holy using a lot of spells feels so wrong. Mana & DA/SS is the issue.
Disc mastery lets Spirit Shell turn PoH into a HPS increase rather than "just" a bubble

Guess they don't even acknowledge that there is an issue. Sad.

[Venaliter]

Thanks Arlee, I kept coming back to this and reading it - and not knowing how to handle it. I agree with Venaliter that Ham is clearly trolling, but all his posts feign naivete to a point I can't really infract:

I said almost the EXACT same thing ;-)

Blue tweet

Guess they don't even acknowledge that there is an issue. Sad.

The blue tweets on the MMO headlines are typically a week or more out of date. This tweet was in reference to how powerful SS was, and thus the corresponding nerf on the 5.2 PTR of 15% or whatever.

[Meaks]

Going to humor him, just this once

I still haven't had an answer lol.

Why would reverting DA from 50% > 30% "destroy" the spec?

With SS no longer scaling with mastery, this would seriously damper priests ability to scale with gear. Crit would most certainly become the most desirable secondary stat, with none of the 3 scaling tremendously well. As it is on live, priests scale extraordinarily well - with mastery almost as good as int in some cases.

You asked about the class in a different expansion earlier. I'm pretty sure this was troll, but I'll answer that too. In cata disc priest's primary throughput stat (int) was also their primary regen stat. And with the tuning of our single target spells, we were one of the strongest tank healers at the time (now we are one of the weakest). While our tank healing tools have not changed, their relative power has. This should be enough of an example to show that you can't really compare across expansions. But regardless, I think the main factor was that disc priests were able to stack int and that with high levels of gear (3rd tier in expansion) this lead to extremely large rapture gains while also providing high healing power. We required very little spirit. Also, we had Enlightenment (15% more int) as a spec passive, so for every point of int we stacked, we got 1.15. (This is gone now)

Disc priests, while most of the tools look exactly the same, are much different than they were in Cata.

[Sparkiee]

Ham is far from trolling and simply asking questions that alot of people havent even taken a note on replying to properly before yelling out "lolomgtroll"

Actually, alot of what Ham is saying about Spirit Shell actually makes a decent amount of sense, the statement about never being able to balance it is relatively true. Its quite honestly a broken ability all the time it can stack with other priests SS's. I dont like the idea of nerfing it because of that but none the less the fact is its a very valid point to make. The curent nerf incoming in 5.2 nerfs the actual ability but not the main problem with it that is causing guilds to stack disc priests on high end progression kills to make bursts of damage alot easier to deal with. If you think thats some kind of joke, go run 3 discs on Empress 25 heroic, then run one, and compare how smooth the healing is, trust me you will notice the diffrence. You can 5-6 heal (probably less) that fight with no problems now with 3 non-brain dead discs.

The mana in - mana out debate is rather questionable but as i said way back on page 2 or 3 of this thread, the 200% to 250% buff on rapture will make disc regen insane again, all you will be doing is dumping a small amout of int (flask / food) / secondary stats for a little more spirit.

The SS change will not stop discs from topping meters on almost every fight if played properly, nor will the so called rapture "nerf" and nor will reducing DA from 50% to 30% if that change was made. Go and take a look at the 99th+ percentiles on raidbots, you will see just how much top disc priests will pull away so far on almost every fight compared to every other healer, its not right atall.

#FeelSorryForRestoDruids