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  1. #741
    Insanity needed to be fixed; it was retarded that one talent was 10k ahead of the others on single target. Problem is that even with how op Insanity was, it was barely enough to bring us in line for single target. We still need a single target buff, but the ptr isn't close to being over so just hold out and hope for the best.

  2. #742
    but the ptr isn't close to being over so just hold out and hope for the best.
    listen to this wise man. don't you ever try to spam the official forums asking for your class to be as good as the other classes. priests aren't like the other players, they need to endure. blizz always took care of sp, fixing they're problems and listening to them.
    Last edited by almosthuman; 2013-01-31 at 02:06 AM.

  3. #743
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuyek View Post
    Solace and Insanity: Shadow: Your Devouring Plague increases the damage of Mind Flay by 33% per orb consumed.

    Glyph of Mind Spike: Your successful non-instant Mind Spikes reduce the cast time of your next Mind Blast within 9 sec by 50%.

    I'm assuming thats a buff to Insanity and nerf to From darkness comes light?
    It's a gigantic Insanity nerf. Something like 66%. Useless now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mails-Prowers View Post
    There is only one thing we can do. All The Shadow Priests need to Unite. We need to show Ghostcrawler with Facts how wrong he is in his direction with the Shadow Priest Class.
    Yup. Unsubbing. I encourage ALL priests to do this, even if you immediately resub.

    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    /unsub with message "my class is broken." Perhaps that is a wake up call.
    I've had it. No longer supporting that incompetent asshat Ghostcrawler.

    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    Um really? Phantasm change might be granted if angelic feather wasn't crap to begin with and if they didn't nerf body and soul.

    Dispersion change is just stupid.
    Goddamn right.

  4. #744
    For the love of god, how can they expect disc to survive without phantasm.... there is no way to stop CC from hitting you and no way for a melee to range stun/charge you as soon as you pop phantasm.

    Phantasm is more useful for disc than it is for shadow. How stupid can you get.

  5. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    Phantasm is more useful for disc than it is for shadow. How stupid can you get.
    It is this very question that WoW class balance seeks to answer.

  6. #746
    Did a quick test on the new patch, the glyph interface is busted but it appears that the Binding Heal glyph still exists and the Binding Heal change is not baseline. There is a pvp gear vendor now. The Spirit Shell Flash Heal bug was fixed.

  7. #747
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Priests better have big pvp buffs coming at this point, from the looks of things none of our specs will be very competitive next season.
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  8. #748
    Dreadlord soulyouth's Avatar
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    TBH I'm glad my guild imploded, because raiding as shadow atm is not something I'd want to be doing.

    At least we were the kings of Cata, never thought I'd say this but I miss the rng of orbs and emp shadows, fuck them for changing us in mop.
    Soon as I saw shadow orbs I thought great we are going to be retarded ret pallies, why they fumble round trying to figure out what to do with us.

  9. #749
    First of all one thing I noticed is other players with classes who have no idea of how a Shadowpriest plays come inside this forum to either troll or flame us. I believe this should stop. This is the Priest Forum. They have no business here unless they are Shadow Priests.

    Now on to the main matter. I believe one of our moderators is a Shadowpriest (Ysaelle I think) can see this. I think mmo champion is a huge representative of the Warcraft Universe as a forum. I think it's time for the Shadow Priests to unite and prove to Ghostcrawler and his pathetic team of Priest developers with facts, tests and charts that the class needs a serious design. Like (Korra I think was the name of the Shadow Priest Dev before Ghostcrawler) that man is completely useless in his position. We need to make him understand that he can't do whatever he pleases. I haven't said anything about the class for 7 years now but I don't think I can stand anymore of this shit. I am paying this game to have fun and to have an equal opportunity of victory against the other (kind of like 50-50). We all are.

    What I see 7 years now are complete overhauls in various abilities of the Shadow Priest in each expansion. Those abilities are good at the start but tend to get nerfed over time (sometimes even in one night without testing time).Take for example the Patch that brought the MOP talents with Cataclysm gear before the main game hit the stores. The Shadow Priest had a very powerful burst (Instant Spikes and Instant Blasts) but because everyone had Cataclysm gear and stats and those talents were for MOP gear the Shadow Priest seemed powerful because we could burst anyone down in seconds. Then they nerfed each DOT and the Divine Insight from 15% to 5% without any reason because as you all saw when every player got dressed with MOP gear and stats those damages went to normal levels. Do you know that my 3 DOTs are doing only 10000 more damage with the 30% buff inside ICC than they were doing in Dragon Soul (and of course the Spellpower went from 8k to almost 30k).

    In general I think it's time to prove to Ghostcrawler that this farse needs to stop. With charts, ideas and tests.

  10. #750
    Quote Originally Posted by almosthuman View Post
    listen to this wise man. don't you ever try to spam the official forums asking for your class to be as good as the other classes. priests aren't like the other players, they need to endure. blizz always took care of sp, fixing they're problems and listening to them.
    The first step in fixing a mistake is admitting there is one. GC consistently isn't admitting there is a problem; on the contrary, he points out we have options which we neither in theory nor in practice (both proven by logic and maths) have. The logical reply to such is boycott, voting with your wallet. To those who say the PTR is still fresh I ask: why do you expect a buff when the lead designer isn't admitting his mistakes? If he admits there is a problem (like with SW:I) then we can expect a fix. If he's not sure, he could say that ("we're keeping an eye on it" like he did with for example rogues). He's sure though: he's sure there's no problem.

    If you're a pure and one of your specs isn't strong (even though you like it a lot) that sucks but you got options. A shadow priest is, together with the paladin and monk, the only class not having an other DPS spec to pick from. With druid and shaman needing to pick a different type of DPS (melee instead of ranged or vice versa). There's a serious amount of shadow priests who cannot or don't want to go healer (disc, most likely). So for us it sucks a little bit more than for holy not being viable (can go disc w/o rerolling) or MM not being viable (can go BM or SV). Which means it sucks if we're not viable for one patch. It seems to become "for one expansion" now.

    The more spriest who quit the bigger the message.

    Quote Originally Posted by soulyouth View Post
    TBH I'm glad my guild imploded, because raiding as shadow atm is not something I'd want to be doing.
    Same though elsewhere, before MoP, I had an option rerolling lock with trial spot... also I am curious about the amount of spriest who rerolled disc, in both 10m and 25m.

    At least we were the kings of Cata, never thought I'd say this but I miss the rng of orbs and emp shadows, fuck them for changing us in mop.
    Soon as I saw shadow orbs I thought great we are going to be retarded ret pallies, why they fumble round trying to figure out what to do with us.
    That sounds like rose tinted glasses of nostalgia. If you weren't lucky you wouldn't get orbs. If that happened on the start of fight your damage never took off, no ranking, no matter how perfect you played the rest. Shadowfiend giving 3 orbs was a great burst of course (even in the hypothetical situation where you'd only get once 3 orbs if you popped your fiend because that'd mean your ES would be up from start on pull), but back then multiDoTing was still strong. MultiDoTing isn't strong anymore, but AoE and cleave still is. Why? Why is multiDoTing seen as something satanic which ought to be extinct?
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  11. #751
    My Mage is at lvl 67.

    I take this updated patchnodes as a personal insult to the (shadow)priest community.
    This asshole (GC) cuts away our strengths with nothing in return. Our single target DMG is bad compared to other casters and 5.2 will make it even worse.
    On top of that our healing gets nerfed to the ground.

    FUCK YOU GHOSTCRAWLER!

  12. #752
    Any disc priest not expecting a serious nerf after this tier is both blind and silly. Myself I have been enjoying every second of being ridiculously overpowered knowing it would end, and probably badly. It's always been the same. Sometimes your class is OP, sometimes it's on the bottom of the totem pole. You should always be happy and enjoy it when you have at least one of your specs in the former category. And if you can't stand playing a class/spec that isn't OP then you're just gonna have to get used to a lot of char swapping or game hopping, but I suspect most of you "unsubbers" are already.

  13. #753
    One of the things I've noticed is that people seem to think that Priests are underpowered, when all I see is the exact opposite. Here, on the past two weeks, on a fight by fight basis, by logs (out of 23 dps specs)(25 Heroic, but the pattern is exactly the same on others):

    Stone Guard: We are 5th
    Feng the Accursed: 12th (the middle)
    Gara'jal: 13th (again, the middle)
    Spirit Kings: 3rd
    Elegon: 3rd
    Will of the Emperor: 5th
    Zor'lok: 8th
    Blade Lord: 11th
    Garalon: 10th
    Wind Lord:10th
    Un'sok: 7th
    Shek'zeer: 4th
    Protectors: 5th
    Tsulong: 4th
    Lei Shi: 12th
    Sha of Fear: 6th

    (if you would like to see what I referenced: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_...11100000000000 this links to spec score, which we are near the top, but I went on a fight by fight basis 25HC)

    Wait a second, you mean on not one out of 16 fights were below the average (I am aware the halfway point is 11.5 and we do have 12s and 13s. I'm not here to argue semantics. On each of those fights the deltas are ridiculously small around the 11.5 mark). In fact, on each fight there are generally 5-6 specs that do 10% better than the rest, and we are in that group on a third of the fights?

    Wait a second, were OP on a third of the fights? And were decent on the rest?

    Now I can understand that some people don't give credit to these kind of things (but to the people yelling about running to GC with charts and facts, make sure you get them right before you do), but even outside that, there is an obvious trend:

    We are really strong on fights where there are chunks of time to do even some multidot. On fights that are almost pure single target, we fall to the middle of the pack (which mind you, the middle of the pack isn't underpowered, it means balanced). Do we need a buff to single target? It'd be nice. I'd love to feel like a god on every fight. But it isn't necessary. We don't need to be perfect on every fight. We just need to be balanced for every fight. And thats exactly where we are. In fact, we even get the luxury of competing for the best on multiple fights, a luxury most DPS specs do not entertain.

    The real issue with shadow priest right now isn't the fact were underpowered (in fact, we are in a really good position). Its the fact that the three main classes competing for our spot (Afflic Warlock, Arcane Mages, Balance Druid) are just as strong or stronger. On most fights, Afflic Warlocks and Arcane Mages are 10% ahead of almost EVERY spec (not just us). Balance druids are pretty much in the same boat we are: a strong, balanced, spec, that shine on multiple fights, but are otherwise middle of the pack.

    Now, I know GC tweeted that he recognized Affliction was overpowered (I have not seen anything about Arcane Mages). I am unsure if he has stated anything about a plan to nerf affliction, but I would assume that means nerfs are coming to them (or have? I have not been paying attention to warlock patch notes). So wait a second. We haven't received any real direct nerf (Except the change to Mind Spike glyph). Insanity was buffed to be a viable talent (but not the go-to talent). I am not surprised Insanity was nerfed - it was 10K ahead of mindbender and FDLC. Of course its gonna be fixed. Its not baseline, it’s a talent. I don't know about you, but other than void tendrils, my talents are shifting constantly, and I don't shift void tendrils because I'm lazy and so far that tier has had 0 impact on the fights.

    Am I pissed at some of the quality of life changes? Yah. I despise the changes to Body and Soul. But it was an entirely mandatory talent in raiding - there was 0 reason to take anything else, or if there was, the cons outweighed the pros. Would I rather have had a change to feathers and phantasm? Yes. Did Body and Soul need to be brought in line with the other two talents? Yes. Do I agree how they went about it? No. But I'm not a designer, and they aren't catering to only me. There will be some changes I agree with, and others I won't.

    Would I like a DPS CD? Again, quality of life. It really isn't necessary whatsoever, because we don't need any damage buffs. Would I like something to separate me as a great / good / average / mediocre / bad shadow priest? Yah, pretty badly. But we can do without it pretty easily.

    The reason we haven't seen any dps buffs is because we don't need them. I rarely PVP, so I don't really want to comment on those nerfs, as I know very little about them. We've received some extremely minor nerfs that I doubt will create a big impact. There could be some quality of life changes, but they probably won't be until 5.3 when all the major balancing is finished. Do I agree with all the changes? No. Do I think there was cause to? Yes. Its not like the designers hate shadow priests (note I say designers, because it’s a team of people. Not one.) or have a vendetta against them.

    What we should be focusing on is how overpowered Affliction and Arcane are, and trying to get those balanced to the rest of the world, not how underpowered we are. We should be focusing on quality of life changes, not whining for more DPS because for some reason were not the best spec on every fight, because that’s clearly good balancing. We got the changes we asked for after Cata. We may not like what we got. So yes, we can try to get it changed again. But that’s it - changed, not broken overpowered. More likely, if we do pursue this, we'll end up weaker, as designers will be extra careful to not have a repeat of Cataclysm (whatever you want to tell yourself, we were basically the Affliction locks of right now, just a little bit more luck based).

    Again, I'm looking at this entirely from a PvE standpoint. I can understand the want for more burst, for a smoother rotation, etc. I can understand a desire for less RNG (actually, you can just spec ToF, snipe those 20% heals, and mindbender, and still pull similar dps, and lose the RNG). But were not underpowered. Not by any means. At least in PvE.

    On a side note, stop attacking Ghostcrawler. Its not like he's the only designer, he's just the one who got unlucky enough to be the spokesperson. While he clearly has a hand in designing, its not as if every fault lies with him. He's not personally attacking priests, or you.

    I also do not main Disc or Holy so I won't comment on those.

  14. #754
    Quote Originally Posted by TheNightAngel View Post
    We've received some extremely minor nerfs that I doubt will create a big impact.
    Unfortunately, the PvP nerfs are anything but minor. The word apocalyptic comes to mind. And they affect EVERY spec in PvP.

    On a side note, stop attacking Ghostcrawler. Its not like he's the only designer, he's just the one who got unlucky enough to be the spokesperson. While he clearly has a hand in designing, its not as if every fault lies with him. He's not personally attacking priests, or you.
    Ghostcrawler is the lead systems designer. He has the final say. The blame ultimately rests on him. He's not personally attacking priests, he's just not listening to us. He tells US what's fun. He's the "Jay Wilson" of the wow franchise.

    I admire the dude's commitment. I admire him spending his own time on twitter. But I'm definitely not impressed by the mess he made of Priests since he came onboard at the end of TBC,

  15. #755
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNightAngel View Post
    One of the things I've noticed is that people seem to think that Priests are underpowered, when all I see is the exact opposite. Here, on the past two weeks, on a fight by fight basis, by logs (out of 23 dps specs)(25 Heroic, but the pattern is exactly the same on others):

    Stone Guard: We are 5th
    Feng the Accursed: 12th (the middle)
    Gara'jal: 13th (again, the middle)
    Spirit Kings: 3rd
    Elegon: 3rd
    Will of the Emperor: 5th
    Zor'lok: 8th
    Blade Lord: 11th
    Garalon: 10th
    Wind Lord:10th
    Un'sok: 7th
    Shek'zeer: 4th
    Protectors: 5th
    Tsulong: 4th
    Lei Shi: 12th
    Sha of Fear: 6th

    (if you would like to see what I referenced: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_...11100000000000 this links to spec score, which we are near the top, but I went on a fight by fight basis 25HC)
    This again? Stop using Top 100 parses and default measure. If you want to see what those in 25 HC bleeding edge dps do, compared with other specs/classes. Go All Parses, at >80%. Your picture you listed will change.
    Last edited by mindp; 2013-01-31 at 04:16 PM.

  16. #756
    I think that was a very good post, TheNightAngel. Anger over nerfs happen, and I know from first hand experience that it's easy to get incredibly frustrated when they come. I could easily make a long tirade about the stupidity of the Body & Soul nerf for example. I think I even did.

    But don't shoot the messenger. Coming with unfiltered anger towards Ghostcrawler isn't really helping anyone. At best you'll force him to stop post any news at all, and all you have to go on is the datamined patch notes, without any reasoning.

    Convince him to see your point of view instead. He isn't a priest, and I have a feeling that neither of his team is playing one solely. GC is in charge of 34 specs. His reasoning may not be the same as yours and it may not even be right. But without GC airing the reasoning for a nerf, there is no way to agree or disagree with his thinking.

    His reasoning at this point is: "we nerfed mages and warriors a lot. next up in the power scale is shadowpriests". The nerfs to healing, defence and so on all came from that reasoning. If you don't think his reasoning is good, explain why. Show why with numbers, logic, gut feeling or statistics. That is how you win. "Eff you ghostcrawler" isn't going to convince anyone.
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  17. #757
    To NightAngel:

    Seriously? You shouldn't include all off 23 possible dps spec in your calculation. For example why would a good Mage pick Frost over Arcane on a single target boss fight? Same with Locks, Hunters, Rogues... You should compare the best of each DPS spec vs Shadow and you'll get the true picture.

  18. #758
    TheNightAngel when you're comparing you should dismiss pures who have 3 specs to choose from since they can simply play the spec of the month on the same class. I mean whoever is seriously raiding and playing arms right now is either a casual (nothing wrong with that!) or a moron (nothing wrong with that either!) and in both cases their own fault (one out of ignorance, one willingly) since a simple choice is available: switching spec, on this case going fury. Pures have even 3 specs to pick. If a pure has 3 specs on a fight, one is shit, one is average, one is good then they'll play the good one during progression. Spriests don't have that luxury. Boomkins are similar in this regard. Yes, they do have 4 specs in total, but 2 are different roles and the other DPS spec uses completely different gear. So the viable alternative w/o swapping much gear is resto. Windwalker monks and retridins have the same problem, but they're melee.

    The B&S nerf isn't so much a problem for that phantasm is useless in PvE and Angelic Feather is cumbersome especially in 25m. Priests traditionally lack movement speed increase, and fade used to address this to at least minimize movement decrease. You compared to the other classes who compete for out spot, and yet they're simply better.

    Also of those classes you mentioned, especially warlock, they all scale better with gear than shadow priest.

    We got the changes we asked for after Cata.
    Not sure about you but I didn't ask for all these changes.

    Its not like he's the only designer, he's just the one who got unlucky enough to be the spokesperson.
    The direct result of being a spokesperson is that you receive flak. If you don't want to deal with that, do not be a spokesperson. There's no reason to feel sorry for a spokesperson receiving criticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danner View Post
    But don't shoot the messenger. Coming with unfiltered anger towards Ghostcrawler isn't really helping anyone. At best you'll force him to stop post any news at all, and all you have to go on is the datamined patch notes, without any reasoning.
    I honestly don't have a big problem living without Twitter, or if he would just let some drones weed out the good replies and take those for granted but without discussion. I know Twitter is just part of PR whinch includes a concept such as damage control. Also, in his communication he repeats spriest is fine. He's not suggesting he will buff us, there is no shed of doubt like with rogues he said "he'd keep an eye."

    Convince him to see your point of view instead. He isn't a priest, and I have a feeling that neither of his team is playing one solely. GC is in charge of 34 specs. His reasoning may not be the same as yours and it may not even be right. But without GC airing the reasoning for a nerf, there is no way to agree or disagree with his thinking.

    His reasoning at this point is: "we nerfed mages and warriors a lot. next up in the power scale is shadowpriests". The nerfs to healing, defence and so on all came from that reasoning. If you don't think his reasoning is good, explain why. Show why with numbers, logic, gut feeling or statistics. That is how you win. "Eff you ghostcrawler" isn't going to convince anyone.
    We've been doing that past months. I have seen many interesting posts on theorycrafting, maths, alternatives, etc. But you can't really link those on Twitter. "Unsub" is just a conclusion.
    Last edited by lolalola; 2013-01-31 at 04:35 PM.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  19. #759
    The Patient Tenaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waikata View Post
    Seriously? You shouldn't include all off 23 possible dps spec in your calculation. For example why would a good Mage pick Frost over Arcane on a single target boss fight? Same with Locks, Hunters, Rogues... You should compare the best of each DPS spec vs Shadow and you'll get the true picture.
    Spared me from typing +1

  20. #760
    Quote Originally Posted by 78012881970

    Single target damage is bad for shadow priests, and the only changes we're getting so far are:
    We haven't made many PvE damage adjustments at all. We will. It's possible Shadow lost too much damage while moving in PvE. Nearly all of these Shadow changes were to tone them down in PvP.
    Ghostcrawler's response on the PTR forums.
    He states they will make adjustments to shadow PVE so lets hope for the best and stop acting as if the world is ending.

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