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  1. #761
    Mechagnome Syenite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNightAngel View Post
    One of the things I've noticed is that people seem to think that Priests are underpowered, when all I see is the exact opposite. Here, on the past two weeks, on a fight by fight basis, by logs (out of 23 dps specs)(25 Heroic, but the pattern is exactly the same on others):

    Stone Guard: We are 5th
    Feng the Accursed: 12th (the middle)
    Gara'jal: 13th (again, the middle)
    Spirit Kings: 3rd
    Elegon: 3rd
    Will of the Emperor: 5th
    Zor'lok: 8th
    Blade Lord: 11th
    Garalon: 10th
    Wind Lord:10th
    Un'sok: 7th
    Shek'zeer: 4th
    Protectors: 5th
    Tsulong: 4th
    Lei Shi: 12th
    Sha of Fear: 6th

    (if you would like to see what I referenced: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_...11100000000000 this links to spec score, which we are near the top, but I went on a fight by fight basis 25HC)

    Wait a second, you mean on not one out of 16 fights were below the average (I am aware the halfway point is 11.5 and we do have 12s and 13s. I'm not here to argue semantics. On each of those fights the deltas are ridiculously small around the 11.5 mark). In fact, on each fight there are generally 5-6 specs that do 10% better than the rest, and we are in that group on a third of the fights?
    Now lets have a little evaluation, shall we?

    Firstly and foremost lets make sure we dont have some biased meter paddeling involved and chose >75% fractile. Secondly, lets chop down all secondary dps specs other classes may have and only considder the top one for a given fight - as priests would most likely play the "top spec" as all other classes chose to do (if they had another one.
    That leaves us with 11 different classes and an equal amount of ranks.

    Thus;
    25 hc, >75%
    Stone Guard: 5th
    Feng the Accursed: 11th
    Gara'jal: 11 th
    Spirit Kings: 5 th
    Elegon: 3th
    Will of the Emperor: 8 th
    Zor'lok: 9th
    Blade Lord: 11 th
    Garalon: 10 th
    Wind Lord: 11 th
    Un'sok: 5 th
    Shek'zeer: 8th
    Protectors: 6th
    Tsulong: 7th
    Lei Shi: 10th
    Sha of Fear: 4th
    25 normal:
    Stone Guard: 5th
    Feng the Accursed: 11th
    Gara'jal: 11th
    Spirit Kings: 8th
    Elegon: 5th
    Will of the Emperor: 2nd
    Zor'lok: 11th
    Blade Lord: 11th
    Garalon: 11th
    Wind Lord: 11th
    Un'sok: 7th
    Shek'zeer: 11th
    Protectors: 5th
    Tsulong: 11th
    Lei Shi: 10th
    Sha of Fear: 6th

    Total average:
    Stone Guard: 5th
    Feng the Accursed: 11th
    Gara'jal: 11th
    Spirit Kings: 6.5 th
    Elegon: 4th
    Will of the Emperor: 5th
    Zor'lok: 10th
    Blade Lord: 11th
    Garalon: 10.5th
    Wind Lord:11th
    Un'sok: 6th
    Shek'zeer: 9.5th
    Protectors: 5.5th
    Tsulong: 9th
    Lei Shi: 10th
    Sha of Fear: 5th
    Not advocating for Spriests having to be 1st, 2nd or 3rd on every single encounter - but shining every once and again would be lovely.
    Going over the numbers you will notice that Spriests quite consitently manage to be if not the worste dps class to bring on a given encounter - then second to worst. As everyone else a large chunk of us want to be competitive and see some kind of a reward equal to the effort given on [insert boss].

    Futhermore you will notice that any boss not providing some kind of a gimmic add phase or consitent multitarget oportunities will mean that we end up just about last.

    TL;DR: how come a single class has to be rock buttom on half the encounters this tier?
    Last edited by Syenite; 2013-01-31 at 05:10 PM.

  2. #762
    Quote Originally Posted by Danner View Post
    But don't shoot the messenger. Coming with unfiltered anger towards Ghostcrawler isn't really helping anyone. At best you'll force him to stop post any news at all, and all you have to go on is the datamined patch notes, without any reasoning.
    I disagree. I am utterly fed up with the developers' ham-fisted attempts to balance classes within this game: GC and co. deserve unfiltered anger. Their inability to make class changes that aren't the metaphorical equivalent of a bull raging through a china shop just baffles me. Time & time again they swing from one extreme to the other.

    Does anyone remember how patch 3.2 was for Shadow? I refuse point blank to endure another patch like that ever again. Playing the game simply stopped being fun. If 5.2 shapes up in the same way (for all the reasons discussed in this thread), I'll have absolutely no hesitation in unsubbing.

  3. #763
    Being an asshole to GC is not going to help you or shadow priests, so please just keep it to yourself.

    Anytime someone gets in his face in an assholish way, he's incredibly dismissive... I don't want that rubbing off onto other priest concerns because someone can't approach something in an adult manner.

  4. #764
    Quote Originally Posted by VanillaO View Post
    Being an asshole to GC is not going to help you or shadow priests, so please just keep it to yourself.

    Anytime someone gets in his face in an assholish way, he's incredibly dismissive... I don't want that rubbing off onto other priest concerns because someone can't approach something in an adult manner.
    In no way did I condone being an asshole to him. That's an entirely separate thing. You can express anger without being personally offensive. Ditto you can express anger in an "adult manner". And, yes, I do feel angry about it. I do not want a repeat of patch 3.2 for Shadow PvE.

  5. #765
    We have tried approaching stuff in an adult manner. We have tried telling him SP in single target PvE and heavy movement are terrible in comparison to most other classes. We have asked for small buffs to things such as MF, or allowing more movement with MF or something along those lines... lots of ideas have been posted all have been ignored. Instead we keep getting nerfed, and now making our Glyph of Mind Spike utterly useless because of PvP again i believe is just the last straw for most people. So to keep asking us to not get upset or be civil and crap like that is not going to work until we actually get a decent response and not "youre fine".

  6. #766
    So we have a class with only one DPS spec and this spec is the worst DPS of all classes (assuming they use their best DPS spec) in 5 out of 6 fights on 25m normal of one raid (first one after the introduction raid), and roughly 10th on the rest of the fights on HC in this instance. That's hardly average, that is really shit. Why would you take such a class in your raid? In a properly designed raid, every class is median with some + and some -. For example, say we were the worst on 4th boss but best on 5th, and then on other ones average. People could still complain, but statistics would say they're average with some + and some -. Not the case in this raid. On average its slightly better (since shadow is better in the other 2 raids than in HoF) but still worst or 2nd worst on multiple fights, and hardly average. And we are to believe GC doesn't know about this problem? Come on... who are you kiddin'?

    Considering this quote

    We haven't made many PvE damage adjustments at all. We will. It's possible Shadow lost too much damage while moving in PvE. Nearly all of these Shadow changes were to tone them down in PvP.
    He was too busy nerfing PvP burst damage and other stuff to fix our broken spec in 5.0 and 5.1. Why would I pay for such service? I can't switch to BM and play that spec when MM is shit. I can reroll, call it, or play healer. We're lucky disc is viable, but many spriest do not want to (or cannot) play healer role.

    The only good news is that in 5.2 the cards aren't played yet number-wise, but given how broken the class is (without there being an easy fix) it won't be something to fix at the end of 5.2 development just like the priest class development was like a dessert in MoP development.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 08:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Drogoh View Post
    We have tried approaching stuff in an adult manner. We have tried telling him SP in single target PvE and heavy movement are terrible in comparison to most other classes. We have asked for small buffs to things such as MF, or allowing more movement with MF or something along those lines... lots of ideas have been posted all have been ignored. Instead we keep getting nerfed, and now making our Glyph of Mind Spike utterly useless because of PvP again i believe is just the last straw for most people. So to keep asking us to not get upset or be civil and crap like that is not going to work until we actually get a decent response and not "youre fine".
    Exactly. It seems GC is completely at a loss in priest class/spec development (especially shadow, I cannot speak much about the other 2 specs but from what I seen I can't put the geraniums outside on those either, unless you're happy when disc is OP). Consider the symptoms of this: the class development on shadow priest started last of all classes. Very little was announced during Blizzcon barring new talent tree and level 90 talents. The overhaul of the spec started late in de MoP development. When 5.0 hit, we did good burst damage but still in DS died so quick due to overgear, more OP talents, and gigantic nerf that it wasn't even a test (which was why we played for various weeks without the buff). I saw the first symptoms when I knew I was playing well, got ranked (or nearly ranked), and still at the average or bottom of the meters. I remember the first time Gara Jal HC and you could clearly see how incredibly bad the single target, non movement burst damage was there (I did use ToF here, not PI). The sick thing here (off healing for 10m) got nerfed for PvP reasons. But what really opened my eyes was the first time I ever did HoF normal (!!). Which is about one month into the expansion. From this moment on, the problem was crystal clear to anyone who can read the data analysis (which coincide with personal anecdotes). It was never addressed due to PvP... now, with that out of the way...
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  7. #767
    Quote Originally Posted by Syenite View Post
    Secondly, lets chop down all secondary dps specs other classes may have and only considder the top one for a given fight - as priests would most likely play the "top spec" as all other classes chose to do
    Are you seriously saying that the big advantage of pure classes, that we have three goddamned dps specs, should not count?

    Dude are you high?

    You're going to compare your one shadow spec to mutilate, combat, and sub? That's absolutely ludicrous.

    Not claiming spriests are fine in pve. But at the moment you think shadow should be compared to arcane on a fight that is full tunnel and combat on a fight that is full cleave, you have lost your damned mind.

    Sorry, being a hybrid doesn't mean "my one dps spec should be able to fully stomp on frost/fire/arcane, affl/demo/destro, marks/beast/survival, combat/mutilate/sub.". What an entitled joke.


    That's not what people are saying, please keep it civil. - Yvaelle
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2013-02-01 at 02:35 AM.

  8. #768
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    I disagree. I am utterly fed up with the developers' ham-fisted attempts to balance classes within this game: GC and co. deserve unfiltered anger. Their inability to make class changes that aren't the metaphorical equivalent of a bull raging through a china shop just baffles me. Time & time again they swing from one extreme to the other.

    Does anyone remember how patch 3.2 was for Shadow? I refuse point blank to endure another patch like that ever again. Playing the game simply stopped being fun. If 5.2 shapes up in the same way (for all the reasons discussed in this thread), I'll have absolutely no hesitation in unsubbing.
    Which of these two responses would be most effective?

    "Ghostcrawler, you're an asshole and you are completely ruining the priest spec. Quit your dayjob. Also, I'm unsubscribing. "

    or

    "These latest nerfs are unwarranted. They are ruining PVE completely, and they make priests pushovers in PVP. In PVP, priests don't have too much burst, so we rely on doing steady damage, and that means being stationary a lot of the time. Thus being able to tank a little is imperative to the spec's survival, and for that we need strong healing and damage mitigation. In PVE, these numbers [copypasted from Syenite's post above] show that shadowpriests aren't really all that right now, and the latest changes are putting us at a severe disadvantage in the metric that matters: dps. "

    If you seriously think that response #1 is the best, then... well, good luck with that.

    --

    Ghostcrawler do listen to reason. He is not agreeing with everything he hears, but he will read it. That's one of his really good points. But he's only the messenger. He doesn't decide things. The devteam does. He has to defend the decisions of the devteam, even if he may think the decision sucks (though I would assume he pulls a lot of weight so that doesn't happen often). That means his initial response will always be to defend the status quo. A light argument will get a light response. A crass argument will get a crass response, if any. A heavy argument will be taken to the next class balance meeting for discussion, but he cannot easily jump in and say "we will do that" until they had that discussion.

    This sure makes him look stubborn. I really think he and the devteam ARE stubborn; considering it took 6 years to get lightwell right, and it's probably another 3 years before chakra gets the same treatment. But that's just how the process works. Give him enough barrage, and he will eventually have to look into it. It took 3 months of beta play, but priest heals got cheaper and that really saved priest healing. It took another 5 weeks of MoP release time to do anything about the miiserable state of disc priests. That's feedback at work.

    I never found him unreasonable. But I sure found him stubborn. Raging however, never worked. And frankly it's making these forums unpleasant.
    For the record, I do hope someone feeds those words back to me the next time I find myself on the other side of the fence here.
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  9. #769
    First of all as I said before what do other classes are doing in our forum? This is the priest forum. Unless you have something constructive to say about the Shadow Priest or offer solutions to the various problems we would like to go to your own class channels and let us solve our problems. I mean mercy.

    Now about Ghostcrawler. We never asked to anyone to be overpowered and stomp everyone. What I ask is for the Shadow Priest to have an equal chance based on skills to defeat another class and of course be defeated if not skillful enough.
    Last edited by Darth-Pinkaminus-Piekus; 2013-01-31 at 09:05 PM.

  10. #770
    Quote Originally Posted by Mails-Prowers View Post
    First of all as I said before what do other classes are doing in our forum? This is the priest forum. Unless you have something constructive to say about the Shadow Priest or offer solutions to the various problems we would like to go to your own class channels and let us solve our problems. I mean mercy.
    I came in here to try to gauge the effects of the recent wave of overnerfs, and to see what ideas you guys were coming up with- there's still time before 5.2 hits, and we'll probably see either some unnerfs or some mild buffs (since GC has basically stated that pve was too low, the overnerfing in pvp may be partially meant to be compensated by a raw dps increase that is yet to come).

    Trust me, calling out a priest whose math involves pretending that each pure class is one spec deep DOES help your class :P

  11. #771
    There was a post earlier today, from twitter.... from ghostcrawler stating that the recent changes to Shadow was to balance them in PVP because they were a bit rediculous with the second insanity.

    He stated that they are working on PVE changes to balance them out and bring them up..


    Can we all calm down now >_>

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  12. #772
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Are you seriously saying that the big advantage of pure classes, that we have three goddamned dps specs, should not count?

    Dude are you high?

    You're going to compare your one shadow spec to mutilate, combat, and sub? That's absolutely ludicrous.

    Not claiming spriests are fine in pve. But at the moment you think shadow should be compared to arcane on a fight that is full tunnel and combat on a fight that is full cleave, you have lost your damned mind.

    Sorry, being a hybrid doesn't mean "my one dps spec should be able to fully stomp on frost/fire/arcane, affl/demo/destro, marks/beast/survival, combat/mutilate/sub.". What an entitled joke.
    Because during progression we can assume a pure will play the spec best for the fight instead of the one they "like most". That's why.

    I mean seriously think of what you are saying here. Any hunter who is progressing in heroic raid, be it 10m or 25m, is simply not playing MM. They just aren't. They got 2 other viable specs. Same with warrior: no warrior plays arms right now, they play DW or 2H fury. Are these problems for MM and arms lovers? For sure! Are they important? For sure! Are they more important than being below average and worst damage in 5 out of 6 fights in HoF? [n]Sorry, no![/b] Why not? We are one of the 3 hybrids with only 1 DPS spec (five hybrids if you count druid and shaman given they cannot reuse their gear for second DPS spec). We are also the only ranged class with this problem (although I admit boomkin and ele shaman have similar issues).

    I'd love to know how many spriests in 25m rerolled warlock, and how many priests in 10m went disco.

    since GC has basically stated that pve was too low,
    Quote, where he wrote that because I am 100% sure he did NOT wrote that. He wrote he didn't look at 5.2 damage yet. It was a general statement, not specific to shadow priest, and also the statement does not address the problem we had in 5.0/5.1!
    Last edited by lolalola; 2013-01-31 at 09:40 PM.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  13. #773
    The Patient Aica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Because during progression we can assume a pure will play the spec best for the fight instead of the one they "like most". That's why.
    The weakness of the hybrids vs. the pures is supposed to be that they can't swap specs based on fight mechanics. That's the only bonus the pures have compared to the hybrids (assuming everything else is equal). I didn't think about it before, but now that Verain brought it up, I believe he's right here. Priests should have fights where they shine, and fights where they don't, for sure. However, due to fight mechanic variance, the combined power of three specs in one class should overall outperform (but not crush) the reduced number of specs for the hybrids, if you average out over all encounters.
    Last edited by Aica; 2013-01-31 at 09:51 PM.
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  14. #774
    I'd love to know how many spriests in 25m rerolled warlock, and how many priests in 10m went disco.
    Locks are still well below priests, so presumably not that many.

    I don't know how many spriests went to heals versus heals went to spriests, I don't have any way to figure that out. But pretend that many DID... that would just be:

    Because during progression we can assume a PLAYER will play the spec best for the fight instead of the one they "like most". That's why.
    Which sounds fine by your logic, right? Oh, but it's somehow different because dps or whatever. Spare me.

    I mean seriously think of what you are saying here.
    I have, and I'm damned sick of hearing nonsense like this. It's ludicrous that you would compare yourself to combat on stone dogs and then cry. It's INSULTING that you won't count all three rogue specs on ANY fight, but the spec you DO choose changes every fight. That's absurd. To be the best combat rogue, your gemming is different, your reforging is different and of course you need a different weapon- even two to be optimal- than someone trying to be the best muti rogue. Yes, of course, a pure will respec for the fight- but hybrids do this way more and to way more effect. If a fight is cheesed by an extra healer, or disc is redic on it, that's much more relevant to progression- ESPECIALLY in 10s- than the ability to turn on blade flurry, or whatever.

    Not counting that hunters have a dead spec (more like two) and using that as an excuse to cry about your actually desired and good class is just disgusting. Hunters have serious pve issues, to the point where they've had some issues being included in raids this tier. Priests have not had this issue. That doesn't mean that Blizzard shouldn't fix shadow in pve- it is definitely under the desired mark unless Bliz had a design change that was pretty profound (and secret). But using numbers like that is ABUSING numbers to try to jam them together to fit the point you already decided on.

    Priests are not undesired. Shadow priests are not undesired. They are undertuned in pve, and we're expecting some fixes. But to list yourself as below combat and arms on garalon, and then go over to lei shi and be sad about being under mutilate and fury, is changing your goddamned comparison metric on the fly to try to paint yourself as a bleeding martyr instead of one of the most desired and versatile classes in this game.

  15. #775
    Quote Originally Posted by Aica View Post
    The weakness of the hybrids vs. the pures is supposed to be that they can't swap specs based on fight mechanics. That's the only bonus the pures have compared to the hybrids (assuming everything else is equal). I didn't think about it before, but now that Verain brought it up, I believe he's right here. Priests should have fights where they shine, and fights where they don't, for sure.
    Yeah, and that's completely fine, but that also means the hybrid's DPS spec needs to fill a niche. Spriest has none. Utility? Disc provides exactly same utility (mage has their own version of dispersion and cauterize, warlocks can soak too now). MultiDoT? Worst multiDoTer. Burst? One of the worst -if not the worst- burst of all 11 classes. The best is mediocre DPS, and like we established 5 out 6 fights in one single raid the worst DPS.

    Lets forget heroic for a moment. Why would any PuG take a spriest for HoF? They'd be morons if they did!! I wouldn't even want to join such as spriest because it shows the raid leader is an idiot who likes to carry someone playing a spec which is NOT VIABLE in that raid!! His proper reply should be "can you play disc? your spec isn't good in HoF" just like a half decent PuG raid leader shouldn't take a MM hunter or arms warrior.

    However, due to fight mechanic variance, the combined power of three specs in one class should overall outperform (but not crush) the reduced number of specs for the hybrids, if you average out over all encounters.
    Oh I thought this line of thinking is like from TBC, abolished 4 years ago finally, when Blizzard got rid of this thing called hybrid tax.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  16. #776
    Mechagnome Syenite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Are you seriously saying that the big advantage of pure classes, that we have three goddamned dps specs, should not count?

    Dude are you high?

    You're going to compare your one shadow spec to mutilate, combat, and sub? That's absolutely ludicrous.

    Not claiming spriests are fine in pve. But at the moment you think shadow should be compared to arcane on a fight that is full tunnel and combat on a fight that is full cleave, you have lost your damned mind.

    Sorry, being a hybrid doesn't mean "my one dps spec should be able to fully stomp on frost/fire/arcane, affl/demo/destro, marks/beast/survival, combat/mutilate/sub.". What an entitled joke.
    How about reading my post before going balistic? I do NOT claim that shadow should be rank 1,2,3 or so on every single encounter; however being competitive would be a nice thing. Because a class has 3 specs focused on a single thing it doesnt imply the right to stomp everyone at said thing with 3 specs.

    When comparing CLASSES on a given encounter however there is no point to considder the weakest of the 2. regardless of a mage having 1, 2 or even 3 specs stronger than shadow on a boss the mage will be the stronger class. There is no valid point in saying shadow is fine because x class has y spec being weaker - whiles having spec z being stronger. If you pick the 11 strongest spec for every encounter u dont neglect the mage having different specs.
    And please remind me, but doesnt this game have more than 1 hybrid class..
    Warriors, Dk's, druids, shaman, paladins, monks come to my mind - yet they dont end up deadlast on every other encounter (given they play the correct spec).
    Last edited by Syenite; 2013-01-31 at 10:23 PM.

  17. #777
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Locks are still well below priests, so presumably not that many.
    No they're not warlocks are definitely not the lowest DPS in 5 out of 6 fights in HoF. They're well above that. They're together with boomkin the best multiDoTer (fire got nerfed, and is hybrid due to cleave).

    I don't know how many spriests went to heals versus heals went to spriests, I don't have any way to figure that out. But pretend that many DID... that would just be:

    Because during progression we can assume a PLAYER will play the spec best for the fight instead of the one they "like most". That's why.
    My question concerned 10m, since in 25m it isn't much of an option. But also, many shadow priests roll shadow because they like the role.

    Which sounds fine by your logic, right? Oh, but it's somehow different because dps or whatever. Spare me.
    I already said in my previous post the logic behind my question so this is just red herring. Happy meal.

    I have, and I'm damned sick of hearing nonsense like this. It's ludicrous that you would compare yourself to combat on stone dogs and then cry. It's INSULTING that you won't count all three rogue specs on ANY fight, but the spec you DO choose changes every fight. That's absurd. To be the best combat rogue, your gemming is different, your reforging is different and of course you need a different weapon- even two to be optimal- than someone trying to be the best muti rogue. Yes, of course, a pure will respec for the fight- but hybrids do this way more and to way more effect. If a fight is cheesed by an extra healer, or disc is redic on it, that's much more relevant to progression- ESPECIALLY in 10s- than the ability to turn on blade flurry, or whatever.
    During progression a combat rogue would regem and reforge. That's just the way progression works. If you don't, you are a shitter who does not belong in a top guild because you're not min maxing as good as you know you can (not rocket science). I know warlocks who used to reforge and regem all the fuckin' time in FL because of different spec. If we're talking the more casual guilds who raid a few times a week or who play normal mode then you have a point, but they still have the option of another DPS spec. We don't! We must have an alt, or reroll, or sit out, or play healer. So we need to have a specialty we're good at. MultiDoT is the only one, and here we're worst, hands down. Which means any shadow priest in 10m who doesn't like or want to go disc will (and should, from guild POV) get a gkick and be replaced by one who does! Just like any half serious guild doesn't allow their warriors to play arms or MM "cuz they like it lol". Which is why we dismiss those options. PvE multiplayer wise they're viable in LFR and maybe some farmin' for the lol; nothing else.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  18. #778
    The Patient Aica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Yeah, and that's completely fine, but that also means the hybrid's DPS spec needs to fill a niche. Spriest has none. Utility? Disc provides exactly same utility (mage has their own version of dispersion and cauterize, warlocks can soak too now).

    Lets forget heroic for a moment. Why would any PuG take a spriest for HoF? They'd be morons if they did!! I wouldn't even want to join such as spriest because it shows the raid leader is an idiot who likes to carry someone playing a spec which is NOT VIABLE in that raid!! His proper reply should be "can you play disc? your spec isn't good in HoF" just like a half decent PuG raid leader shouldn't take a MM hunter or arms warrior.
    Spriest utility is Mass Dispel (which Disc/Holy can't do without destroying their mana) and offhealing support while doing damage (90 talents + VE + Hymn of Hope). You're right in that many fights only one of the spriests in my guild is included, due to other classes bringing more to the table. The amazing add control utility that warlocks and mages have is something I've been sorely desiring over our hProtectors, hLei Shi and hTsulong attempts.

    I can't speak for PuGs, since I'm never in one.

    Oh I thought this line of thinking is like from TBC, abolished 4 years ago finally, when Blizzard got rid of this thing called hybrid tax.
    There's a large difference between being outright worse on every fight ever than pures, and averaging out worse overall. Considering you yourself agreed that a hybrid's inability to change specs based on fight mechanics is fine, I find it odd that you say this.
    Last edited by Aica; 2013-01-31 at 10:28 PM.
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  19. #779
    Mechagnome Syenite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aica View Post
    Spriest utility is Mass Dispel (which Disc/Holy can't do without destroying their mana) and offhealing support while doing damage (90 talents + VE + Hymn of Hope). You're right in that many fights only one of the spriests in my guild is included, due to the amazing add control utility that warlocks and mages have. It's something I've been sorely desiring over our hProtectors, hLei Shi and hTsulong attempts.

    I can't speak for PuGs, since I'm never in one.

    There's a large difference between being outright worse on every fight ever than pures, and averaging out worse overall. Considering you yourself agreed that a hybrid's inability to change specs based on fight mechanics is fine, I find it odd that you say this.
    Vampiric embrace is fine - but situational. Healthstones are a stronger alternative on fights with no massive aoe damage.
    Massdispell is great.. for fighting trash in MV and on Wind Lord (where we are the weakest dps class anyway), only being taken for this fight due to utility is borderline stupid...
    Our offhealing from FH, BH, PoM, renew, etc is going down the drain along with P5.2 to balance out pvp

    On fights like feng we dont bring add control, great aoe nor good singletarget damage.

  20. #780
    Quote Originally Posted by Aica View Post
    Spriest utility is Mass Dispel (which Disc/Holy can't do without destroying their mana) and offhealing support while doing damage (90 talents + VE + Hymn of Hope). You're right in that many fights only one of the spriests in my guild is included, due to other classes bringing more to the table. The amazing add control utility that warlocks and mages have is something I've been sorely desiring over our hProtectors, hLei Shi and hTsulong attempts.
    MD is very situational. I agree with your argument on that one, but this is a gimmick on a few fights (3 or so) and being brought for your utility is akin to being a mana battery (TBC) or half healer (original VE). Healing-wise a boomkin also does well, and 10m you're better off with a lock (healthstones, excellent self healing if required, also unique utility with demonic gate, excellent CC and great damage both single target and multiDoT as well as burst). HoH isn't a reason to class stack spriests either, nor is VS (which is unique to priest) or VE. None of these are reason to include spriest in every fight. They're a reason why you got a spriest on the bench, sitting out, while bringing them on farm content so they're geared for these few fights where their utility is good. Meanwhile, mage, warlock, boomkin will get included in every fight.

    I can't speak for PuGs, since I'm never in one.
    Well we speak of 3 groups: the ones already long done with the content the top guilds. The min maxing like our angry rogue here neglects to do wouldn't by acceptable during progression. Then we have mid tier those who have cleared everything on normal first weeks but still not done with heroic. Its more liberal and tolerant to not min maxing (but in general players are just less good than top, or less caring) still it should go the same there. It just doesn't make sense otherwise. Why on earth would your RL accept a MM or arms spec in your raid? Why?! Then we have the average and better PuGs. Lets assume they're not completely overgeared and somewhat mediocre (not trash). Its the same for them? Why would they accept a PuG playing a bad spec? I played fire on my mage alt in 4.2 because I hate arcane but every time I played fire I was frowned upon, and I can completely understand this. If mage was my main I'd play this alt half serious I'd make sure I like to play all the specs of the role (which is 3 in the case of mage DPS). That's the point here. We're counting the 75% > mark, not those who who are on 40% or something.

    There's a large difference between being outright worse on every fight ever than pures, and averaging out worse overall.
    We're below average, and in one of the raids (the 2nd) we're the worst DPS class hands down except for boss #5. You're carrying a spriest here, its just that simple. Which you know, which is why you got them benched.

    The fights we come out good is due to multiDoT, but other classes are simply better there so you class stack those if you require multiDoT; not spriest. Furthermore, the burst is bad, the single target is bad; you really don't take a spriest on progress there unless you want to carry the fellow or your raid is comprised of mediocre players and your priest is awesome.

    Considering you yourself agreed that a hybrid's inability to change specs based on fight mechanics is fine, I find it odd that you say this.
    Say what?
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

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