5.2 Shaman changes

[Dukim]

So unleash fury gonna replace elemental blast on hero or asandance and we use the cool elementals, Awsome

[Kralljin]

Kralljin point is that we have so many weak tools we cant dps, we must cast grounding , earthbind, purge, wind sheer,thunderstorm, astral shift, healing stream . WE HAVE too many less powerful tools other have fewer but more powerful and they can use when matters and we just spam our tools and cant controll them enough so less time to do dmg

So, what are you doing instead of purging / earthbind / wind shear / etc. ?

Casting Lb? Lb won't put any kind of pressure on the enemy, Lb dmg in general is low but you never really tried put pressure on someone with Lb, you were just waiting for Lvb to come off CD and the right moment to fire it off.

What are Mages doing outside of Frostbomb+DF? they mostly hop around spam Ice lance, waiting for a freeze to come off CD and then use Frostbomb+Freeze.

There is simply a difference between playing offensive or defensive, Burst specs often play very defensive until they are ready to try it again.

Also, speaking of which use from certain abilities such as Wind Shear?

Do you interrupt a CC, a dmg spell or what?

It's a difference if you use an ability for offense or defense, if you use it offensively you obviously gain dmg from it (such as avoiding a CC or interrupting a heal) if you use it defensively you probably have a good reason why you use it that way.

If you want to counter pressure with dmg by yourself, the enemy is probably going all in and is using abilities such as CoS / AMS for an offensive purpose to avoid abilities like Hex, Thunderstorm and such.

If he's not, you're better off using these abilities for defense instead of trying to put pressure on your enemy.

[Deleted]

counting Ascendance casts and Mastery (Echo is up in the air atm), it looks like our 3-minute cooldown will turn itself easily into a 2-minute one moderately reliably. I'd be more than willing to delay trinket use for a couple of seconds to meet up with that every other time, and looking at a 30% uptime increase on our biggest personal DPS cooldown is going to be remarkably sexy.

How you get to that conclusion? Elemental is staying in Ascendance 15 seconds, this mean you will cast around 15 LvB = 15 sec reduce cooldown. how you will get 2 minutes cooldown on Ascendance, don't understand how 15 sec = 60 sec.

" The Elemental 4pc does count Lava Burst cast while in Ascendance. "

From my point of view PTR 5.1 look very nice, build 5.2(this include 90 sec up from 60 to Elemental Mastery cooldown) look like real elemental shaman 23 place from all 26 DPS specs.

[Raiju]

How you get to that conclusion? Elemental is staying in Ascendance 15 seconds, this mean you will cast around 15 LvB = 15 sec reduce cooldown. how you will get 2 minutes cooldown on Ascendance, don't understand how 15 sec = 60 sec.

You then have 1:45 to knock out 45 seconds worth of LvB's. Personally I don't see you do it generally but delaying 5-10 seconds would still be a clear dps increase.

[PsyBomb]

8 second cooldown, call it 1.2 second cast after haste and 30% chance for a Mastery proc.

14 casts within Ascendance, roughly 4 bonus casts for a total of 18
About one cast every 6 seconds outside of Ascendance, roughly 17 casts with 6 mastery procs in 1:45 for a total of 23.
41 seconds off, and the numbers are very rough and lowballed. You get roughly 45 casts if you up Mastery to 40%, and if you are under BL then count on 15 Ascendance casts base. Might not be quite as reliable as I thought unless it counts Echo casts as well, but burst phases with Ascendance will be put off for only 15 seconds or so given the stats that would be on raiders of this caliber. Will likely increase Mastery weight by a bit.

[oblivionx]

How you get to that conclusion? Elemental is staying in Ascendance 15 seconds, this mean you will cast around 15 LvB = 15 sec reduce cooldown. how you will get 2 minutes cooldown on Ascendance, don't understand how 15 sec = 60 sec.

" The Elemental 4pc does count Lava Burst cast while in Ascendance. "

From my point of view PTR 5.1 look very nice, build 5.2(this include 90 sec up from 60 to Elemental Mastery cooldown) look like real elemental shaman 23 place from all 26 DPS specs.

From checking World of logs fights it's actually right on line to drop it to 2 minutes.

[shell]

Wrong thread for this because I should put it in the wishlist thread, but considering that a lot of elementals want improved single target dps...what would happen if they took Elemental Blast off the talent tree, gave it to ele, and put a spell that does similar dps in its place?

In its current (ptr) implementation resto still won't take it and from what I'm reading enhance probably won't either.

[Omanley]

because you cannot balance the game around everything...

what makes balancing harder is creating weirdly designed abilities like hex
what makes it easier is creating more homogenisation, as they've done with a (overall) more evened out set of interrupts, gap closers, CCs and the like

Blizz likes to homogenisize to make pvp easier to balance. They dont let shamans benefit from that homogenisation at all though.
Dps shamans aren't just underperforming in random bgs, they are underperforming in pvp overall.
To sum it up: you argument doesn't make any sense

It was nerfed along any other Interrupt Spell, Wind shear is still strong because of it's shorter CD and Range.

Only that you do not see the difference in another classes' interrupt and ours: For a rogue, his kick was just another of his many many tools. For a rogue to have some extra seconds on his kick hardly changed much for him with his stuns, sap, gouge, blind and the like. A shaman's anti-caster strenght was almost entirely riding on a 5-6 second cooldown on wind shear, which got freaking doubled. Being able to almost completely lockdown an enemy with shear alone was a shamans' strenght, and that's gone now, even if it is still a lower cooldown.
A rogue instead can still sap, stun after that, gouge after that, kick after that, stun again after that, gouge again, blind after that, stealth, sap again, stun again, kick, gouge, stun...
Obviously there's also luck and diminishing returns involved, like always. But point is, a rogue can still totally lockdown people, while a shaman cant do that anymore, so dont compare the interrupt nerfs.

Shaman had to prevent enemies from CC'ing...

Or they brought allies with strong CC. Besides, what would you as a shaman CC a resto druid with? Hex? He's immune, can shift out of hex if you catch him outside a form, and he can decurse. You cant really interrupt his heals either, they're all instant hots. And chain purging was often enough a waste of time.

Why not turn the tables around? let's name a few cons of Mage in PvP:

-HoF / WW Totem can disable any serious burst
-Frost Bomb has a countdown which allows to use CD's early or dispel
-They have to Hardcast any full CC aside from PoM RoF.

-HoF/WW totem have long cooldowns, whereas a mage can root via many different means several times a minute. Besides, you cannot put down totems while stunned, so a quick Deep Freeze after a freeze would prevent that.
-Frost Bomb isn't even in my equations. Shamans nowadays still fall short from mages back then. Also if mages utilize their overwhelming CC, they can force stuff like frost bomb to hit, a shaman has much more problems applying that to his CPT.
-They have instant freezes through Water Elemental and Frost Nova, which lead to instant stuns. They also have counterspell to make sure their poly isn't interrupted(unless you cant have the silence on that one anymore, in which case I stand corrected).

To make this clear, the main reason why Resto is so strong in PvP is their Mastery, that allows Resto bring targets from 10% to 80% within a single Cast.

Resto were strong in wotlk as well, and mastery didn't exist yet back then. Resto was strong because it has several niche abilities, like a short cd range snare, a short cd range interrupt, a powerful spammable offensive dispell, cleansing totem, especially earth shield and other stuff.
Mastery made them a lot stronger no doubt, but it is not that resto started out as a powerful spec before cata.

They would have had already troubles in Vanilla with there wasn't something called WF and Frost Shock.

Vanilla was a mess pvp-balance-wise. Blizz started from zero back then, so I wouldn't dream of complaining about shortdoming in a time where shaman raiding gear consisted of caster gear only. Wf wasn't a good design either. It was pretty much russian roulette on a daily basis, only with 4 bullets in the gun. It made leveling very depressing at time, never proccing until the last 5% for example.
Also homogenisation wasn't part of the game back then. Interrupts weren't avaiable for ferals and rets and warriors had to stance dance to pummel/shield bash. Earth Shock was in comparison to now a very powerful ability indeed.
Stuns were a privilege of rogues and paladins, unlike now where most (not us) have a reliable stun at their disposal.
There was no cyclone, no shock wave, no no-cd-avaiable for all-specs-repentance and the like around. CC was something for a select few as well.

Shamans got a stun since then, like others, but a bad one
Shamans got a CC since then, but a bad one
Shamans didn't get a gap closer, like rets, ferals and rogues
Others got our buffs and our interrupt in comparable quality
Most can now selfheal, many better than us

Our strenghts were exported, but we hardly imported strenghts, that's the situation.

That's about 3 Spells to control or escape Melees.

Let's see... Demonic Gateway, Demonic Circle: Teleport, Fear/Blood Fear, Axe Toss (demo/felguard), Whiplash (succubus), Carrion Swarm, Curse of Exhaustion, Howl of Terror, Mortal Coil, Shadow Fury, Seduction (Succubus), Disarm (Voidwalker), Demonic Leap (demo)
Just from a quick glance that'd be 13... counting limitations due to specs and talents... seven-eight or so at minimum, more as a demo lock. Not three.
Warlocks have crazy amounts of control, unlike a shaman.

[Deleted]

Ele or enha for PvP next season ?

[paror]

Ele or enha for PvP next season ?

Monk or rogue, seeing as they get buffed to godclass.

[Kralljin]

what makes balancing harder is creating weirdly designed abilities like hex
what makes it easier is creating more homogenisation, as they've done with a (overall) more evened out set of interrupts, gap closers, CCs and the like

Blizz likes to homogenisize to make pvp easier to balance. They dont let shamans benefit from that homogenisation at all though.
Dps shamans aren't just underperforming in random bgs, they are underperforming in pvp overall.

The only thing that applies for this homogenisation are Buffs, which are Shaman the best class currently because they bring 2 Buffs Baseline and 1 additional based on spec.

Only that you do not see the difference in another classes' interrupt and ours: For a rogue, his kick was just another of his many many tools. For a rogue to have some extra seconds on his kick hardly changed much for him with his stuns, sap, gouge, blind and the like. A shaman's anti-caster strenght was almost entirely riding on a 5-6 second cooldown on wind shear, which got freaking doubled. Being able to almost completely lockdown an enemy with shear alone was a shamans' strenght, and that's gone now, even if it is still a lower cooldown.

As far as i can see, spells like "stuns, sap, gouge, blind and the like" work as well against Melee, if you compare those tools now against Wind shear you are comparing Apples and to an entire crate of Oranges.

Obviously there's also luck and diminishing returns involved, like always. But point is, a rogue can still totally lockdown people, while a shaman cant do that anymore, so dont compare the interrupt nerfs.

Yeah, Warlocks cannot lockdown targets as Rogues can, now what? Comparing interrupt spells to Stuns and full CC's doesn't make any sense at all.

Or they brought allies with strong CC. Besides, what would you as a shaman CC a resto druid with? Hex? He's immune, can shift out of hex if you catch him outside a form, and he can decurse. You cant really interrupt his heals either, they're all instant hots. And chain purging was often enough a waste of time.

Again, is this a "only Shaman" issue, doesn't this Polymorph immunity apply to mages as well? Resto Druids can now dispel Poly as well.
CS is nearly worthless against a Resto Druid as well with 5.2 coming live, it is even weaker because it allows to interrupt a single cyclone every 20sec.

Is dispelling hots a only Shaman "weakness" as well? I think Priests and Hunters could dispel things as well.

-Frost Bomb isn't even in my equations. Shamans nowadays still fall short from mages back then. Also if mages utilize their overwhelming CC, they can force stuff like frost bomb to hit, a shaman has much more problems applying that to his CPT.

You see however not the problem that their sole burst relies on a sucessful Frost Bomb.

A single Dispel? Burst and CC gone
Using a CD? Burst mitigated, which is possible since you can predict the burst because he has to apply Frost Bomb before the freeze.

With 5.2 and Sham Rage you can disable every 2nd DF of a Mage which denies him the 4Sec stun as well as Burst from Frost bomb.

Shamans got a stun since then, like others, but a bad one

What people do not realise about Capacitator is that it's a baseline skill.

How many Classes have a Baseline AoE Stun?

Paladin with a Glyph, which lasts 3 sec requires the Pally to run in Melee Range, has a 2min CD and requires a Glyph Slot and you lose the disorient version of the spell.

Obviously this skill get's compared because this to Abilities like:
Shadowfury, Leg Sweep and Shock Wave.

What most people forget however that you cannot compare these skill with Capacitator because they are Talented, if pick them you lose cannot have these other spells, Capacitator however has every shaman regardless of his Talent tree.

Of course it has cons, because it is freaking 5sec AoE Stun on a 45sec CD, it is supposed to destroyed, but that it gets destroyed everytime is simply a myth because you cannot keep always track of a small wooden stick for which you have a 3 / 5Sec Window to destroy.

our interrupt in comparable quality

Wind Shear is still strong because of it's range and short CD.

Most can now selfheal, many better than us

25% of your PvP Power will work for heals again, Sp will get some nerfs for compensation.

enjoy.

Let's see... Demonic Gateway, Demonic Circle: Teleport, Fear/Blood Fear, Axe Toss (demo/felguard), Whiplash (succubus), Carrion Swarm, Curse of Exhaustion, Howl of Terror, Mortal Coil, Shadow Fury, Seduction (Succubus), Disarm (Voidwalker), Demonic Leap (demo)
Just from a quick glance that'd be 13... counting limitations due to specs and talents... seven-eight or so at minimum, more as a demo lock. Not three.
Warlocks have crazy amounts of control, unlike a shaman.

I was talking about spells that specifically work against Melees.

What you are counting up here is any kind of CC available to a Warlock, regardless of Spec or Pet.

If you are trying to say that Warlock has more CC overall, then yes this is true.

However this is Iconic to Warlock as well as Mages to have a big control over the enemy, that's why many people always said that these 2 Classes have a high skillcap because you need to use those CC's properly else you will fail.

I solely talking about the Uptime of Melees on Shaman and Warlocks.

And some things you named are just silly, such as Voidwalker Disarm, i don't know if i saw a serious Warlock with a Voidwalker or GoSac with Disarm.

[Sarevokcz]

From checking World of logs fights it's actually right on line to drop it to 2 minutes.

from what WoLs? There is no real patchwerk fight this tier and for example spirit kings the random eleshaman from top5 has 18 LvBs and overloads per minute. thats with ~7min fight and three Ascendances (and opportunitites to multidot for more surges to offset the brief nodps periods). Random top5 eleshaman on HC vizier has <17,5, Simcraft is sitting at about <17,5, there is no way it would suddenly become 30. Even assuming the same ammount of casts on simcraft condensed in only two minute intervals instead of three, you are sitting at 26 per minute and ~52 LvBs and overloads per 2 minutes. But thats just not gonna happen. discount 7 LvBs from third minute (the bare minimum, only LvB casts, no overloads, no surges) and you are sitting at 45 casts per two minutes. In VERY ideal scenario with VERY generous mastery procs.

Yes, mastery and haste will go up the next tier, but hardly enough to get 15 more LvBs or overloads in two minutes (you would need basically double the mastery we have now, including the buff 10% and the passive 16%). I can see 40-45 cd reductions in best cases, less on any fight with aoeing and constant switching of targets, but a minute? No way.

There is also the question if its worth popping Ascendance half a minute early if you can combine it with banner for 20% damage (and possibly EM, which is gonna be every 90s in next build), but thats gonna depend on specific scenarios anyway. Sometimes it will be (if you can get extra Ascendance during the rest of the fight - even with 45seconds off the CD, it would need like 9m15 fight atleast to get the extra one) and sometimes it wont.

[Delanath]

Shaman
- For the Enhance 2pc, we're going to try Storm Strike gives you 2 charges on Maelstrom Weapon, for the reasons mentioned.

Source: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...-bonus-issues/

What do you think?

Here's an update. I dont understand the whole shock thing and how maelstrom weapon will help it.

Shaman (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)

• We're changing the Enhance 2pc from 3 charges on Unleashed Weapon to 1 charge on all Shocks.
• For the Enhance 2pc, we're going to try Storm Strike gives you 2 charges on Maelstrom Weapon, for the reasons mentioned.

[Murderdoll]

That Blizz quote is a little misleading. They moved away from the original set bonus of having UE trigger Maelstrom and moved to Shocks as an alternative. As mentioned by purge in the PTR thread, having Maelstrom proc from Shocks favors EotE by a large margin essentially leaving no room for choice.

Having it proc off Stormstrike lowers that margin enough that a bit of choice can be made in certain circumstances. So theyre giving that a shot.

I think we will be doing a fair bit of hard casting at ~3 stacks especially before whatever ability they decide will proc the bonus - more so if its Stormstrike.

[Raiju]

Because all we needed from stormstrike was a higher chance to waste multiple maelstroms. I already occasionally say 4 procs from a stormstrike GCD beforehand. Wouldn't at least lava lash make *slightly* more sense since it's naturally one less hit?

[Faeglendir]

Cooldown of Elemental Mastery actually changed to 90 seconds.

I personally hate this change, now we won't be able to line it up with Synapse Springs, Blood Fury and 2min CD on use trinkets (if there will be any) or Ascendance after acquiring 4pc T15 (Elemental). They could lower the duration or reduce the amount of haste it provides, 1 minute cooldown just felt so right .

[takolin]

Cooldown of Elemental Mastery actually changed to 90 seconds.

I personally hate this change, now we won't be able to line it up with Synapse Springs, Blood Fury and 2min CD on use trinkets (if there will be any) or Ascendance after acquiring 4pc T15 (Elemental). They could lower the duration or reduce the amount of haste it provides, 1 minute cooldown just felt so right .

On the other side, you can line up EM, Synapse springs, Berserking, Ascendance and glyphed (primal) FE as enhancement. Yes you could do that also with a 60 seconds EM but that might have been a bit too much.

[oxpo]

New build, still no buffs for PVE elemental. Gotta wonder what data they are looking at since they still wont buff us, maybe LFR? Looks like we have to wait another content patch with the worst dps specc in game.

[Cai]

Item - Shaman T15 Elemental 2P Bonus Your Lightning Bolt and Chain Lighting spells have an hits have a 10% chance to cause a Lightning Strike at the target’s location, dealing 70,000 Nature damage to divided among all non-crowd controlled targets within 0 yards.

Item - Shaman T15 Elemental 4P Bonus The cooldown of your Ascendence Ascendance is reduced by 1 sec each time you cast Lava Burst.

Item - Shaman T15 Restoration 4P Bonus Your Ancestral Wakening now has a 20% Awakening now has a 50% chance to trigger on non-critical heals.

New set bonus updates from front page.

[Bobzor]

What people do not realise about Capacitator is that it's a baseline skill.

How many Classes have a Baseline AoE Stun?

Paladin with a Glyph, which lasts 3 sec requires the Pally to run in Melee Range, has a 2min CD and requires a Glyph Slot and you lose the disorient version of the spell.

Obviously this skill get's compared because this to Abilities like:
Shadowfury, Leg Sweep and Shock Wave.

What most people forget however that you cannot compare these skill with Capacitator because they are Talented, if pick them you lose cannot have these other spells, Capacitator however has every shaman regardless of his Talent tree.

Of course it has cons, because it is freaking 5sec AoE Stun on a 45sec CD, it is supposed to destroyed, but that it gets destroyed everytime is simply a myth because you cannot keep always track of a small wooden stick for which you have a 3 / 5Sec Window to destroy.

You still have to pick Totemic Projection and Glyph of Capacitator to make it anywhere close to usable. So your argument sorta fails.