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  1. #621
    Dreadlord Aurokk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dekadez View Post
    I'd rather have them nerf the initial damage and remove the target cap to give us a legitimate mass aoe option (which should be Earthquake, followed by a target capped CL, but oh well).
    In short a Multi-shot/Howling Blast cone effect for CL? That would require a mastery redone to a elemental mechanic like what was done for Fire Mages and Ignite.

    Something like every 3 successfull CL(?)/LvB(? - Ascendance)/LB/EB/Fulm you cast, a copy of that spell would trigger, sending a duplicate that hit for atleast 3x the original damage of the spell, modified by your mastery rating?

    You wouldn't see people complaining much about damage in PVP at least and would be far less RNG for that and PVE.

  2. #622
    Quote Originally Posted by shell View Post
    Elemental has the tools, they're right there in our spellbook. The problem, in my opinion anyways, is our ability to use those tools. I like my toolkit against casters, especially now with the changes coming in 5.2. And if I had better access to my shocks and weapon imbues, tools we already have, I'd like my toolkit against melee a lot more.
    It is true that dps shamans could be much better if blizz just removed some of those many restrictions. Shared shock cooldown is obviously one, unleash swaps being clunky would be another, yes, gw gylph, UF FB giving a 2-3 sec freedom, better Hex and CPT another. The problem with shaman utility/mobility/surkvivability isn't quantitiy, but quality. Just with what we have in terms of abilities, blizz could make dps shamans awesome in pvp easily.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  3. #623
    They are making steps making all three specs viable in pvp things like the sham rage change are a step in the right direction. But honestly I think most of the overdue changes remain over due because of resto. Resto has been and most likely will be again, an absolute monster in high rated pvp play. The combination of restos mastery and high synergy with other classes just made it silly at some points. So like most classes I think blizzard is ok with just having one great spec in pvp. Not that they wil ignore the other ones, but I think it's a lower priority when one spec is performing so well.

    Off topic. Omanley I don't think I've ever seen you say anything positive about Shammys. Did one steal your lunch money as a child?

  4. #624
    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Buffs were a shamans' strenght once, now our strenght is to have 3 buffs, unlike another classes two? sounds awesome. We also suffered from homogenisation in terms of interupts, offensive dispells (mages, hunters, warriors...)
    Tell me more about this "interrupt homogenisation" or "dispel homogenisation"

    referring to the general interrupt nerf? well that's not really homogenisation, it's just a across the board nerf.

    Talking about that more classes have interrupts than they used to have? Paladins and Ferals, these classes / specs got a solid interrupt.


    And Dispel homogenisation, the only classes that can still dispel properly are Priest and Shaman, they always could that.

    Spell steal has a huge mana cost, currently it takes a few spells steals to oom a mage, you cannot spam it like the Priest / Shaman version.

    Hunters can dispel but it it costs 20focus and a 1sec GCD or with a 10sec CD.

    And Warrior...as far as i know only prot warrior can dispel if they got the Glyph for it, Shield Slam nor the dispel effect are baseline.

    Btw. you forget Dk, they can dispel if they got the Icy Touch Glyph.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    They still do their thing in shutting down casters, like wind shear. Just because the latter is more specialized doesn't make my point any less true. A rogue could shut down casters much better than a shaman, and suffered much less than them through that interrupt nerf. Interrupts aren't the only way to, well, interupt spells. That's why a class who has the ability to utilize many tools to do this wont be hurt as much a s one who has only one to it's disposal when the interupt only spell is nerfed.
    You see, a rogue can shutdown almost any character down for a certain amount of time, however they cannot throw Interrupts at range that easily, that's where they run into a problem, if they cannot shutdown one person any longer, they are open for burst.

    That's the Rogue thing, they can piss off the target they are currently focusing with stuns and such, Shaman can piss off an entire Caster Team, obviously not every single person as a Rogue can do, but Shaman can throw stones into the way of the entire team, while rogues often can only block one person for a limited amount of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    -You've essentially avoided my point about shamans not being brought for CC.
    Yeah, but why should you? If you lack CC you take a Mage or a Warlock.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    -Plus we talked about wotlk-times, where resto druids could not dispell magic yet.
    We are switching bit often between situation in terms of expansion / spec, don't we?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    -CS will still allow for a safe poly, which was what it was about, not it's usefulness against a resto druid.
    Then again, are talking about Wotlk or MoP now? Totems could be used while silenced during Wotlk, you could get the 1st Poly with Grounding.

    Or about the fact that CS no longer silences with 5.2?


    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Uuum, so they dont have shatter anymore or what? Frost can put of nice burst even outside of FB afaik. Plus they were made much more pve comtitive, which also benefitted their pvp output.
    Not really.
    You can cast Frostbomb, if you get interrupted you just try it again in 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 Seconds, then you cast Frost bomb again, apply a freeze and got burst.
    If you freeze someone, cast Frostbolt, get interrupted, your freeze will be wasted.



    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    And to become half-way useful only, you require one talent and two glyphs, so your argument is void totally.
    Again, there are people out there who use Capacitator even without Tp or the Glyph, they just combine with Earthgrab and such.

    Seen some Restos that use it lengthen a CC Chain, Hex him, root him shortly afterwards and put down Capacitator, this works with other CC from your Mates as well.

    Also, using the Totemic Vigor is is just fail, Totems will have around 19k hp, Melees will still kill if they target it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Plus even if stuns like a warlock's cataclysm have similar drawbacks (they still win out overall over CPT), they are tools in addition to a decent CC toolkit, whereas CPT is a bad stun in addition to a bad CC.
    Cataclysm never made it into the game, outside of Zor'lok but Destro Locks in PvE are rare anway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    True, but as explained before, not enough to make up for the lack of as many tools as a rogue or now also warriors have to shut down a caster. 12 secs compared to 15 doesn't sound like much of an edge as 5-6 vs 10 did.
    Warriors can lock down Caster that good?

    Interrupt, Spell reflect and Mass Spell reflection, those are the 3 "anti caster" tools of a Warrior, Gag Order Glyph now longer works against player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    And all of that CC can help getting casts of, hence they're relevant. What does ele have? Thunderstorm, Hex, two snares of which one can be a root and CPT. Position yourself well to avoid thunderstorming of an edge, trinket Hex, destroy CPT and the ele cant do much anymore. Try that easy cornering against any warlock.
    If you are a Ranged Dps with a Knockback and stand on a position where Melees can easily nullify this knockback AND you even use it while you are still there, then you deserve to get owned.

    The general advantage of Ranged in PvP is that you can choose your position unlike Melees, if you don't use it that's your fault.

    Also, those "virtual situations" hold nothing because it is comparing oranges to apples, mostly because they ignore a core thing of arena, namely that you play in a team.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2013-01-18 at 09:59 PM.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  5. #625
    Conductivity: When you cast Healing Wave, Greater Healing Wave, or Healing Surge, allies within your Healing Rain share healing equal to 20% of the initial healing done. If your Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Earth Shock, or Stormstrike damages an enemy, allies within your Healing Rain share healing equal to 50% of the initial damage done. Now heals based on healing/damage to ANY target, not targets within Healing Rain itself.
    Elemental Shaman... the new Shadow Priest?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-18 at 02:28 PM ----------

    I like it regardless. But I still thing Healing Tide may be better on certain encounters.

  6. #626
    Please tell me they are going to improve tier 3 talents, they are all so lackluster

  7. #627
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aviators View Post
    Please tell me they are going to improve tier 3 talents, they are all so lackluster
    lackluster? its one of the strongest and most versatile tiers for shaman

    totemic restoration is one of the most OP shaman talents in pvp (and for pve you can use it in conjunction with stone bulwark totem on a few encounters for example)
    totemic projection lets you root, replace dps totems, healing totem, behind pillars ... in range of moving mobs and its off the gcd
    and call of the elements has its uses as well, both in pvp as in pve (1st boss msv on hc for example, windwalk + call of the elements was really good)
    Last edited by zenga; 2013-01-18 at 10:22 PM.

  8. #628
    it's just a across the board nerf.
    We already had this. Shamans were hid harder because interupts weighted harder for them as they did for other classes. A shaman wanting to lock down a caster would wind shear almost on cooldown. A rogue wouldn't, as he didn't rely on kick as much.
    Talking about that more classes have interrupts than they used to have?
    That's what I'm talking about. A ret's or feral's interupt is hardly inferior to a rogue's kick, although neither class were originally interupters. A shaman didn't start out as a stun or CC class, but he didn't get a comparatively good version of either by the time homogenisation was supposed to hit us positively.
    Spell steal has a huge mana cost, currently it takes a few spells steals to oom a mage
    Welcome to purge, which ooms you much faster as enhance. 21% vs. 16% base mana isn't that much of a cost difference also. Plus when both are unglyphed, a mage's version also steals the dispelled buff, while having the same amount of dispells.
    Tranq Shot requires 20 focus, that's not that bad, really. Offensive dispells aren't supposed to be spammed anymore. An enh spamming it five times is oom just like a hunter has depleted his focus bar.
    And Warrior...as far as i know only prot warrior can dispel
    Wasn't there a throw which could also dispell immune buffs? And death knights...did they get this recently? Anyways, it further supports my point of offensive dispells being more and more homogenisized. And while they are nice to have, they are not as essential as an interupt, gap closer, stun or CC.
    Now if they existed on pretty much everyone except for example death knights, and death knights finally getting one but it being a mess comparable to CPT or Hex are, then that would be an argument. Their dispel however is pretty good (though requiring a glyph), considering icy touch is cheap, costing only one frost glyph, as well as dealing damage and applying a dmg modifying debuff.
    however they cannot throw Interrupts at range that easily, that's where they run into a problem
    Blind works on range, and they also have shadowstep, which instantly bring them into range for melee interupts. Plus deadly throw still interupts on range, doesn't it? As long as you have CPs on the ranged target or transfer them via redirect, you can also utilize deadly throw, which requires a talent, but also deals damage, reduces movement speed and locks out pretty long (6 seconds).
    Yeah, but why should you? If you lack CC you take a Mage or a Warlock.
    Well, you went on about how ele and their CC was so important and also reason why they were brought, when it wasn't. The reason was entirely their burst, hex and the like was a little extra, nothing more.
    Then again, are talking about Wotlk or MoP now?
    Wotlk. Your point about grounding during silence is true, though a good mage would have probably canceled poly and lanced it.
    If you freeze someone, cast Frostbolt, get interrupted, your freeze will be wasted.
    Well, when frozen, targets can be stunned. A stunned target cant interupt. There's also Ice Lance. Doesn't this hit for lots of damage anymore?

    Yes, you can certainly support CPT by adding extra CC. But a stun or CC which requires prior CC/stuns to be actually able to hit is a fail design-wise. And many melees have some form of range as well, so a dk or ret or enh can still kill it with an icy touch and what not. And yeah, I know TV doesn't account for much. The glyph by itself is a waste really. Still it is the only thing somewhere in the direction of an survivability buff of our sticks.

    About cataclysm: My bad. Such details about other classes I sometimes miss, as I dont track their changes much (Not that it mattered much in this case).

    Warriors also have throwdown, shock wave and intimidating shout. Remember, CCs, stuns and silences can also be used as interupts.
    If you are a Ranged Dps with a Knockback and stand on a position where Melees can easily nullify this knockback AND you even use it while you are still there, then you deserve to get owned.
    What about terrain without ledges, like nagrad or tirisfal? What about getting death gripped out of such a position? What about knock back imunities like death knights have them? Or a rogue's CoS or a warrior's spellreflect, timed good against TS? What about another player with knockback knocking you down? There are many ways in which you can end up in a situation where TS can be nullified.
    Even when considering a team, when you are easily countered, your team will suffer. While team work is important, to some degree you also have to fend for yourself. You cant have to have your mates babysit you 24/7. That's why enh and ele need more mobility and better CC/stuns.
    Last edited by Omanley; 2013-01-18 at 10:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  9. #629
    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    lackluster? its one of the strongest and most versatile tiers for shaman

    totemic restoration is one of the most OP shaman talents in pvp (and for pve you can use it in conjunction with stone bulwark totem on a few encounters for example)
    totemic projection lets you root, replace dps totems, healing totem, behind pillars ... in range of moving mobs and its off the gcd
    and call of the elements has its uses as well, both in pvp as in pve (1st boss msv on hc for example, windwalk + call of the elements was really good)
    IMO they should get rid of the entire tier 3 talents, make projection baseline, and make totemic restoration baseline also but change it to 25-30% instead of 50%.

    Then again, I also think totems in general should be taken out of the game, and just have the "totem" you place be art, not something you can target and destroy.

  10. #630
    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    That's what I'm talking about. A ret's or feral's interupt is hardly inferior to a rogue's kick, although neither class were originally interupters.
    Yeah, things get spreaded over classes, Warriors could complain as well why their Shield Wall ability got spreaded to other classes even if the aren't tanks.

    Sometimes even with better additional effects and no shield requirement.

    And here's something new for you to complain about, the majority of Dps Specs has a Execute like Ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Welcome to purge, which ooms you much faster as enhance. 21% vs. 16% base mana isn't that much of a cost difference also. Plus when both are unglyphed, a mage's version also steals the dispelled buff, while having the same amount of dispells.
    Tranq Shot requires 20 focus, that's not that bad, really. Offensive dispells aren't supposed to be spammed anymore. An enh spamming it five times is oom just like a hunter has depleted his focus bar.
    Remember early cata? When Enhancer could kill any Disc / RDruid just with auto attacks, shocking his hardcasts and purging any magic buffs?

    The difference between Enh, Elemental and Resto is that if Elemental and Resto start to purge, the won't do anything else outside of their Dots / Hots, Enhancer still deals damage with Auto attacks while nullifying the healing effort of these 2 classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Wasn't there a throw which could also dispell immune buffs? And death knights...did they get this recently? Anyways, it further supports my point of offensive dispells being more and more homogenisized. And while they are nice to have, they are not as essential as an interupt, gap closer, stun or CC.
    Now if they existed on pretty much everyone except for example death knights, and death knights finally getting one but it being a mess comparable to CPT or Hex are, then that would be an argument. Their dispel however is pretty good (though requiring a glyph), considering icy touch is cheap, costing only one frost glyph, as well as dealing damage and applying a dmg modifying debuff.
    Icy Touch is a joke of a Dmg spell, it's main job is to apply Frost fever.

    Also, Dk's got only 2 Frost runes, since you mostly need more than 1 dispel to get the important magic buff, you have to give a GCD and a Frost rune for removing a single Magic.

    This Warrior and Dk glyph is mainly for PvE if you need to dispel a buff, so that grps that lack certain classes aren't screwed or at least have an option left except to assign this duty to a single person.


    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Blind works on range
    Blind is a full CC, also you need a Glyph so that it removes any Dots left, and it's rather long CD makes it more comparable to Instant Hex with AS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    and they also have shadowstep which instantly bring them into range for melee interupts.
    Every 24sec, and using a Gap Closer for interrupting isn't always a good idea, makes you easier to kite and you got ran back to the target.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Plus deadly throw still interupts on range, doesn't it? As long as you have CPs on the ranged target or transfer them via redirect, you can also utilize deadly throw, which requires a talent, but also deals damage, reduces movement speed and locks out pretty long (6 seconds).
    Deadly throw is a talent skill, so you need to skip Nerve Strike or Combat readiness.

    Also, Redirect has a 1min CD and versatility get's dumped with the next patch.

    It costs energy, 35 to be exact that's a lot for an interrupt.

    And currently it won't interrupt unless you have 5 or more CP's, altough with the coming patch the interrupt will scale with the number of Cp's the dmg loss is huge and very clunky with redirecting cp's, the CD of redirect and such.


    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Well, you went on about how ele and their CC was so important and also reason why they were brought, when it wasn't. The reason was entirely their burst, hex and the like was a little extra, nothing more.
    Well yeah, Elemental main thing in PvP is Burst, never denied that but you can't go and degrade any Shaman skill that doesn't improve burst as "little extra" especially in Wotlk Grounding was one huge pain for these Wizard Cleaves because it could soak an entire Burst Combo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Wotlk. Your point about grounding during silence is true, though a good mage would have probably canceled poly and lanced it.
    Put down Grounding shortly before poly goes off, and if he still cancels then you could get enough time out of it that the silence is already over because Ice lance won't destroy grounding instantly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Yes, you can certainly support CPT by adding extra CC. But a stun or CC which requires prior CC/stuns to be actually able to hit is a fail design-wise. And many melees have some form of range as well, so a dk or ret or enh can still kill it with an icy touch and what not.
    If you want in for a CC chain, does it really matter in the end if it opens the CC chain or not?

    I mean, the total duration of being CC'd remains the same.


    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Warriors also have throwdown, shock wave and intimidating shout. Remember, CCs, stuns and silences can also be used as interupts.
    Throwdown is gone since MoP, Shock wave get's a 40sec CD if it hits less than 3 targets, remains Intimidating shout, which has a minute CD.

    In general, using a Full CC for an interrupt is a valid strat in 1v1 but in Arena rather a last resort to avert certain death if the casts finishes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    What about terrain without ledges, like nagrad or tirisfal? What about getting death gripped out of such a position? What about knock back imunities like death knights have them? Or a rogue's CoS or a warrior's spellreflect, timed good against TS? What about another player with knockback knocking you down? There are many ways in which you can end up in a situation where TS can be nullified.
    Does it need a cliff that TS is effective?

    You can use TS and instantly go LoS, which works great in Ruins of Lordaeron.

    And if you get death gripped...run back to the position and there's only a single knockback immunity within the game which is exclusive to a single spec.

    And a Rogue using CoS to avoid TS, really? I mean, maybe in 1v1 but in Arena you'd never use a cloak to avoid something like TS, spending such a crucial CD on TS would be a bit too much exaggerating it's importance.

    Spell reflect doesn't work against TS since early Wotlk, it's a AoE spell and Spell reflect only reflects spells that directly target the warrior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Even when considering a team, when you are easily countered, your team will suffer. While team work is important, to some degree you also have to fend for yourself. You cant have to have your mates babysit you 24/7. That's why enh and ele need more mobility and better CC/stuns.
    This babysit thing is totally bogus.

    I've said it earlier, reacting properly if you are getting focused in Arena is crucial, especially against Melees since you can easily control their position and therefore the position of their healer.

    And Personally, if i'm keep interrupting CC's on my Healer so that he can heal me, i don't call this babysitting but teamwork.

    That's a thing Arena is about, even if you cannot properly keep Melees off your back, your Mates can help you while you try bring your strength in a different aspect of the match to bear.
    That's how this game works, if you play with classes that cannot counter your weakness, you will likely get rolled over by this weakness.

    If you are unable to interrupt or kite the enemies properly simply because the situation overwhelms you, then yes Shaman sucks, but rather because you are unable to use it's strength in terms of personal skill.

    That happens very often to newbie Shamans, they get focused, start to panic instead of keeping a cool head and act logically.

    See Disc Priest for example, Disc isn't always neccesarily a good Healer in PvP, but even if he was decent during a Season, a Melee Cleave could still tear him apart, so many Priests played RMP because Mage as well as Rogue are very good at peeling Melees.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2013-01-18 at 11:52 PM.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  11. #631
    One big change I'd like to see is Primal Elementalist give you a permanent pet. Was doing some dailies on my alt and wished I had a mini tank by my side, would also be decent for solo'ing stuff. Even if it was just a glyph for the Earth Elemental to be permanent I'd be extremely happy.

  12. #632
    1 question Kralljin do you play elemental or resto in arenas and what is your rating

  13. #633
    Stood in the Fire shell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    lackluster? its one of the strongest and most versatile tiers for shaman

    totemic restoration is one of the most OP shaman talents in pvp (and for pve you can use it in conjunction with stone bulwark totem on a few encounters for example)
    totemic projection lets you root, replace dps totems, healing totem, behind pillars ... in range of moving mobs and its off the gcd
    and call of the elements has its uses as well, both in pvp as in pve (1st boss msv on hc for example, windwalk + call of the elements was really good)
    I generally feel the same. Its the one tier where I don't feel forced into picking a certain talent. However, I can see it being lackluster as well.

    I know people were wishing for years that we'd get movable totems but its not really that great, just personal opinion. Part of the reason, for me, is the way the green circle shows up. But the other thing is most of our totems already have a range of 30 or more yards, so by default Totemic Projection ends up being more useful for totems like magma, earthbind/earthgrab, and capacitor because of their shorter range. And yeah, its nice to be able to put totems behind pillars for protection but as far as I'm concerned if totems are spells, they shouldn't have health, and should only be allowed to be negated by classes that have dispels whether offensive or defensive. It's a nice tool to have but I don't think its good enough to be a talent.

    I love Totemic Restoration but I don't know that its necessary to have two talents that do the same thing but in a different way, it just seems redundant. Overall, if they kept the tier I wouldn't care but if they changed it I wouldn't qq about it either.
    These words in my mouth... where did they come from? I don't think I'm the one that put them there...

  14. #634
    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    lackluster? its one of the strongest and most versatile tiers for shaman

    totemic restoration is one of the most OP shaman talents in pvp (and for pve you can use it in conjunction with stone bulwark totem on a few encounters for example)
    totemic projection lets you root, replace dps totems, healing totem, behind pillars ... in range of moving mobs and its off the gcd
    and call of the elements has its uses as well, both in pvp as in pve (1st boss msv on hc for example, windwalk + call of the elements was really good)
    No, I feel its one of those no brainers talent tier because as a resto shaman in pve giving up 30 seconds straight of HST is too good to give up and specially with the new T15 2 set bonus its going to be even harder. I have no use for Totemic Restoration or Totemic projection in a pve environment.

    In PvP, totemic projection is too valuable to give up because it gives me the opportunity to root twice, allow me to strategically place away my totems and call in Capacitor totem.

    There was even a post by Blizzard acknowledging that tier 3 was lacking and it was something they were going to improve, now I cant seem to find that blue post but I am positive its lying around some where.

  15. #635
    Yeah, things get spreaded over classes, Warriors could complain as well why their Shield Wall ability got spreaded to other classes even if the aren't tanks.
    Well, absorbs aren't tank specific abilities. Survivability in pvp for any class is just as important as it is for tanks in pve. That said, warriors have many damage reduce abilities and talents (or stuff with similar effect):
    Demoralizing Banner (group buff), Rallying cry (increases total health of group for duration), Shield Wall (which at least does not require defensive stance any longer, like it happened with any other ability requiring a stance before), Defensive Stance (which lasts infinitely until canceled, though it does sacrifice damage/thread generation), Safeguard talent (damage reduce on an ally)... maybe more, to lazy to check glyphs now. Anyways, warriors have awesome mitigation survivability still. While it was homogenisized among other classes, warriors kept theirs as the best (or at the top together with others).
    And outside of mitigation homogenisation, warriors kept benefitting from improved interupts, getting stuns, improved intimidating shout, some selfheal and additional gap closers. Hardly someone losing out on homogenisation like shamans did.
    And here's something new for you to complain about, the majority of Dps Specs has a Execute like Ability.
    Well, it is definitely something that got distributed. A lot of execute mechanics got removed though with the new talent system, so shaman isn't the only class still without extra damage on low targets anymore. At this point I'll have to say that having one's abilities distributed to others by itself isn't necessarily bad. What's bad is when you dont benefit from that same distribution positively to make up for it. For lending their ability to interupt, heal, buff and dispell to others, shamans got a bad CC and stun as a reward, seems unfair. I guess SR is one of those exceptions of a good homogenisation ability without big downsides to it.
    Remember early cata? When Enhancer could kill any Disc / RDruid just with auto attacks,
    Actually that was the period where purge was hopelessly nerfed witohut compensation for quite a while. Shamans, especially enh were essentially made useless against these two classes. Disc especially was pretty much unkillable, with wf and msw being unable to proc against absorbs back then. Even during wotlk purge spam wasn't as overpowered as you make it out to be, because well placed druid hots would replenish life/mana if dispelled unwiseley.
    Icy Touch is a joke of a Dmg spell, it's main job is to apply Frost fever.
    And in doing so, it has a huge part in dk burst, since most of their strikes get stronger through diseases. IT doesn't do that bad damage in comparison to a shaman's shock either, and our interupt resided on such a "joke of a dmg spell" as well at some point. Still, I remember shamans complaining about having to hold of shocks for kicking, so they couldn't have been that much of a joke really.
    Also, Dk's got only 2 Frost runes
    There's also death runes, which count as everything. Plus it is to be expected that you have to make sacrifices when dispelling. An enhance hitting purge three times is half oom as well (and I'm not complaining about purge) and has to waste several gcds also.
    Blind is a full CC, also you need a Glyph so that it removes any Dots left, and it's rather long CD makes it more comparable to Instant Hex with AS
    Since I am counting everything keeping your target from casting as an interupt, it doesn't matter really. The glyph would be an investment to make, yes. But there's also the option of using instant poison instead of deadly on the mainhand, isn't there? And since offhand poisons got limited to utility, dots shouldn't be an issue, unless you have bad coordination with your mates and they dot targets to be CCed.
    Every 24sec, and using a Gap Closer for interrupting isn't always a good idea, makes you easier to kite and you got ran back to the target.
    That much is true. I wont deny that edge wind shear has. However, what provides the bigger edge? Interupting on range, or having an instant gap closer? While having to gap closer for kicking might seem a waste at some point, it is an option still. A shaman however wont be able to get into range at crucial times, making mana an concern. An oomed enhancer will have trouble with any further gap closing, since mana is required for frost shock, wind shear, further purges, totems for grounding for example and even using ghost wolf. Kiting an enh can mean the end of the world for an enh, whereas a warrior hits one button and lays down the punishment. That's among the reasons why warriors are pvp kings right now, while enh is at best ~okay~.
    Grounding was one huge pain for these Wizard Cleaves because it could soak an entire Burst Combo
    But it is all shaman. Plus warriors with spell reflect could do the same. Not really a specific reason for ele, but these classes in general. You brought ele for the purpose of burst. Without that insane burst, ele would've never been popular, though they most certainly would still have been without one of those decent utility they had aside of that. Their utility was helping at time, but it wasn't anything special either.
    Put down Grounding shortly before poly goes off, and if he still cancels then you could get enough time out of it that the silence is already over because Ice lance won't destroy grounding instantly.
    Wasn't counterspell 4-5 seconds silence duration? That'd be enough for an ice lance plus poly.
    If you want in for a CC chain, does it really matter in the end if it opens the CC chain or not?
    It does. Imagine someone trinketing a Hex, then being able to destroy Earthbind and then destroying CPT. The countering of one will lead to the downfall of the others.
    Throwdown is gone since MoP, Shock wave get's a 40sec CD if it hits less than 3 targets, remains Intimidating shout, which has a minute CD.
    In general, using a Full CC for an interrupt is a valid strat in 1v1 but in Arena rather a last resort to avert certain death if the casts finishes.
    My bad about throwdown. Shock wave's still great though and 40 second is not much for a cone stun. and IS had 5 minute cd before, so down to 1 minute is huge, esp when considering it is aoe. And I disagree about the second point. When you want to finish a target, you often CC his mates. CCing a healer while you burst down his mates is essentially the same as interupting him. The healer wont be able to help his ally, leading said allies' death. Nothin wasted or suicidal here, it is basic going-for-a-kill.
    Does it need a cliff that TS is effective?
    You can use TS and instantly go LoS, which works great in Ruins of Lordaeron.
    And if you get death gripped...run back to the position and there's only a single knockback immunity within the game which is exclusive to a single spec.
    And a Rogue using CoS to avoid TS, really? I mean, maybe in 1v1 but in Arena you'd never use a cloak to avoid something like TS, spending such a crucial CD on TS would be a bit too much exaggerating it's importance.
    Spell reflect doesn't work against TS since early Wotlk, it's a AoE spell and Spell reflect only reflects spells that directly target the warrior.
    -In most cases, it does, as it wont buy enough time otherwhise. The TSed target will instant gap close back to you and you'll be screwed then.
    -In RoL, there's only that grave in the middle, not much an option for los, esp when your enemy refuses to position himself in away to allow you to do so. Plus los-ing will obviously disable yourself to burst on the target as well.
    -What if he death grips you down in nagrand after you TSed him? and with chains of ice that'll require a lot time going back up to that pillar, or in dalaran going back up to the crates.
    -CoS against TS? Maybe, maybe not. He could shadow step back up instantly instead, or decided that using CoS (assuming shadow step on cd) would be better than getting nuked while walking back up on the platform.
    -That about TS okay, my mistake. Still, many ways to counter TS, one of the few kiting stuff ele have at their disposal.

    About your last part:
    With Wind Shear's increased cooldown, have fun trying to continuously interupt no-cooldown-CCs from others (while mercilessly pummeled by others).
    Plus it is common knowledge to protect the healer so that he can protect you. It is not common knowledge to have to rely on others to be actually able to close gaps, or make your CCs or stuns work. Again, to some point teamwork is part of arena, to some point you have to fend for yourself, for there will be situations in which your mates are kept busy. A rogue or warrior in such a situation will have many ways of dealign with the situation, a shaman will be in deep shit.
    And while discs, as any healers, have their strenghts and weaknesses, a wotlk disc was very powerful even w/o rmp. I admit at this point though that they were fodder for offensive dispell (which was changed with cata though).

    A disc doesn't require babysitting. He has instant aoe fears on a short cooldown, strong absorbs and instant heals as well as dispell to get allies out of CC so they can come back help him. A disc can fend well for himself (that includes getting others out of situations were they are kept busy so that they can safe your ass).
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  16. #636
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aviators View Post
    In PvP, totemic projection is too valuable to give up because it gives me the opportunity to root twice, allow me to strategically place away my totems and call in Capacitor totem.
    With totemic restoration you have way shorter grounding and tremor, don't have to explain the major benefit vs certain cleaves. Totemic projection is great vs melee cleaves (and other situations as well), and CoTE is a jack of all trades. I really think you underestimate the value of totemic restoration (definitely as resto). Many have demanded a nerf to it in public.

    Tier 3 to me is just perfect, it gives you something very useful depending on the situation, and it offers choice.

  17. #637
    well my suggestion is for ele Thunderstorm kockback in addition disorient enemy for x sec limit 2 targets the closer target is the longer disorient lasts and thunderstorm is back 45 sec cd
    Last edited by mrinvisable2; 2013-01-19 at 03:50 PM.

  18. #638
    This thread is once again turning into a point by point reply fest... Can you PLEASE stop arguing about unrelated topics and focus on 5.2 CHANGES (not speculation or whatever CC/PVP/useless debate) ?


    Don't use big text to yell at people.
    Last edited by Endus; 2013-01-19 at 06:55 PM.

  19. #639
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Keep wannabe-modding, all the discussion relates to 5.2 changes but your opinion on changes will be based on your views on current standings to begin with. If you don't like discussion why are you on a forum anyway?

  20. #640
    Quote Originally Posted by mrinvisable2 View Post
    1 question Kralljin do you play elemental or resto in arenas and what is your rating
    You want to bring up rating flames now? Okay, then your armory 1st.

    If you want to critize me because of my rating, then you should at least show that you are so much better in this game than me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Well, absorbs aren't tank specific abilities. Survivability in pvp for any class is just as important as it is for tanks in pve. That said, warriors have many damage reduce abilities and talents (or stuff with similar effect):
    How many classes had a % Dmg reduction in Classic aside from Shield wall? Barkskin, yeah that's about it.

    I could say the same thing about interrupts, but i guess these are "bad homogenisation".

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Demoralizing Banner (group buff)
    A 10% reduction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Shield Wall (which at least does not require defensive stance any longer, like it happened with any other ability requiring a stance before)
    I think the bigger problem was that it requires to wear a shield and therefore makes it impossible to bring any pressure outside of interrupts, Dk's for example could use their Shield wall ability without suffering any serious dmg loss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Defensive Stance (which lasts infinitely until canceled, though it does sacrifice damage/thread generation)
    Which gets nerfed to 15% similiar to other tanks classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Safeguard talent (damage reduce on an ally)... maybe more, to lazy to check glyphs now. Anyways, warriors have awesome mitigation survivability still.
    Do we count now spells that only reduce dmg from allies? I thought this was about the Warrior defense alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    While it was homogenisized among other classes, warriors kept theirs as the best (or at the top together with others).
    Wrong, totally wrong.

    Warrior had 2 Def CD's in Cata, Rallying Cry and Shield Wall, def stance had like a 10% dmg reduce, which hindered your ability to make pressure because of stance requirements.

    Many Warriors complained that their defense was inferior until MoP


    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    And outside of mitigation homogenisation, warriors kept benefitting from improved interupts
    Improved interrupts? I thought they got nerfed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    getting stuns
    They have Shock wave left, which has a 40sec CD if you use it to stun a single person, and hitting 3 targets in 3v3 isn't that easy if the enemy doesn't have that much pets.

    And lastly, it's a talent only, they need to skip Dragon roar or Bladestorm.


    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Well, it is definitely something that got distributed. A lot of execute mechanics got removed though with the new talent system, so shaman isn't the only class still without extra damage on low targets anymore. At this point I'll have to say that having one's abilities distributed to others by itself isn't necessarily bad. What's bad is when you dont benefit from that same distribution positively to make up for it. For lending their ability to interupt, heal, buff and dispell to others, shamans got a bad CC and stun as a reward, seems unfair. I guess SR is one of those exceptions of a good homogenisation ability without big downsides to it.
    "Homogenisation is only bad as long as i don't benefit from it"


    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Actually that was the period where purge was hopelessly nerfed witohut compensation for quite a while. Shamans, especially enh were essentially made useless against these two classes. Disc especially was pretty much unkillable, with wf and msw being unable to proc against absorbs back then. Even during wotlk purge spam wasn't as overpowered as you make it out to be, because well placed druid hots would replenish life/mana if dispelled unwiseley.
    The bigger problem was the existing dispel protection of Druid / Priest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    And in doing so, it has a huge part in dk burst, since most of their strikes get stronger through diseases. IT doesn't do that bad damage in comparison to a shaman's shock either, and our interupt resided on such a "joke of a dmg spell" as well at some point. Still, I remember shamans complaining about having to hold of shocks for kicking, so they couldn't have been that much of a joke really.
    The problem is that Dk's usually open with Outbreak, both diseases applied, no need for Plague Strike / Icy touch.

    Frost Dk's use hardly icy touch at all, because Howling blast applies Frost fever.

    And with 5.2 Unholy dk's will apply Frost fever with Plague Strike was well.

    And comparing an interrupt to a dispel is wrong, an interrupt is used once prevent an action to happen, dispels need to be spammed more often that you purge the buff you want to remove, you hardly ever get something like HoF on the 1st purge if you aren't lucky.

    That way, the main purpose of old ES in PvP was to interrupt, and the main purpose of Icy touch isn't to dispel, it's just a nice to have effect if you like the glyph.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    There's also death runes, which count as everything. Plus it is to be expected that you have to make sacrifices when dispelling. An enhance hitting purge three times is half oom as well (and I'm not complaining about purge) and has to waste several gcds also.
    Not sure if a dk would use his death runes for a chance to dispel a buff, you see compared to a Shaman you lose much more damage, you lose a GCD and Runes, which is a huge loss because Death runes are mainly used for Obliterate which deals serious dmg.


    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Since I am counting everything keeping your target from casting as an interupt, it doesn't matter really. The glyph would be an investment to make, yes. But there's also the option of using instant poison instead of deadly on the mainhand, isn't there? And since offhand poisons got limited to utility, dots shouldn't be an issue, unless you have bad coordination with your mates and they dot targets to be CCed.
    Some classes rely on dotting, RLS was a pretty strong Comp in Cata and there the Lock just started multi dotting.

    Then again, those options come often with a huge trade off in terms of dmg, those things would be used as a last resort not as a solid way to interrupt someone.


    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    But it is all shaman. Plus warriors with spell reflect could do the same. Not really a specific reason for ele, but these classes in general. You brought ele for the purpose of burst. Without that insane burst, ele would've never been popular, though they most certainly would still have been without one of those decent utility they had aside of that. Their utility was helping at time, but it wasn't anything special either.
    I don't see why "all shaman" should be a con.

    Also, Spell reflect works only on yourself while grounding works on the entire team and you don't have to equip a shield.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Wasn't counterspell 4-5 seconds silence duration? That'd be enough for an ice lance plus poly.
    4sec, but if you were casting poly too soon it may end up in Grounding as well because of the missile and short cast times in Wotlk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    It does. Imagine someone trinketing a Hex, then being able to destroy Earthbind and then destroying CPT. The countering of one will lead to the downfall of the others.
    So you can break a CC chain with a Trinket, nothing new.

    And even if the enemy re casts it's CC, you obviously need something to prevent it, else your trinket had no purpose anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    My bad about throwdown. Shock wave's still great though and 40 second is not much for a cone stun.
    Talk to some warrior how much they curse because shockwave sometimes misses because of delay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    and IS had 5 minute cd before, so down to 1 minute is huge, esp when considering it is aoe
    Intimidating shout was never at 5min CD.

    Patch History:

    Hotfix (2012-11-27): "The cooldown of Intimidating Shout has increased to 90 seconds, up from 60 seconds."
    MoP Patch 5.0.4 (2012-08-28): No longer cost Rage. Cooldown reduced from 2 to 1 min.
    WotLK Patch 3.1.0 (2009-04-14): Cooldown reduced from 3 to 2 minutes.



    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    And I disagree about the second point. When you want to finish a target, you often CC his mates. CCing a healer while you burst down his mates is essentially the same as interupting him. The healer wont be able to help his ally, leading said allies' death. Nothin wasted or suicidal here, it is basic going-for-a-kill.
    Or for a kill, it doesn't really matter because it is ineffective use of this skill, you only use it in such a ineffective way if you know it that will still decide the match, i don't think Warriors use Intimidating just to interrupt a target aside from some "special" situation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    -In RoL, there's only that grave in the middle, not much an option for los, esp when your enemy refuses to position himself in away to allow you to do so. Plus los-ing will obviously disable yourself to burst on the target as well.
    I don't know, running on the grave, using TS and instantly run down afterwards works often for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    -What if he death grips you down in nagrand after you TSed him? and with chains of ice that'll require a lot time going back up to that pillar, or in dalaran going back up to the crates.
    Get freedom, drop WW totem, go GW with glyph?

    I mean saying such a thing "TS useless because they can close the gap anyway" is like saying "Blink is useless because they close the anyway".

    You can try anything to keep him away or you just stand there like a target dummy, your choice.

    And TS is awesome in Dalaran.


    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    About your last part:
    With Wind Shear's increased cooldown, have fun trying to continuously interupt no-cooldown-CCs from others (while mercilessly pummeled by others).
    Plus it is common knowledge to protect the healer so that he can protect you.
    Yeah, you cannot avoid any CC on your healer, that's true but then again, that's simply impossible.

    If you interrupt a dps that tries to CC your healer, he can't do any damage during the casttime, if you interrupt him, then he wasted his time.

    If a RDruid can mindlessly spam Cyclone on your healer, you should start to make some pressure or start CC'ing the enemies, because if a Druid will only spam Cyclone if he knows that no one needs really healing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    It is not common knowledge to have to rely on others to be actually able to close gaps, or make your CCs or stuns work. Again, to some point teamwork is part of arena, to some point you have to fend for yourself, for there will be situations in which your mates are kept busy. A rogue or warrior in such a situation will have many ways of dealign with the situation, a shaman will be in deep shit.
    Any Range class outside of mage will be in shit, you can't keep Melees away for an eternity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    A disc doesn't require babysitting. He has instant aoe fears on a short cooldown, strong absorbs and instant heals as well as dispell to get allies out of CC so they can come back help him. A disc can fend well for himself (that includes getting others out of situations were they are kept busy so that they can safe your ass).
    Many Melees can roll over a Disc, mostly because Priest relies on of PW:S, which is great vs Caster because he can just cast PW:S and continue to hug a pillar, this strat isn't working vs Melees.

    And Warrior & Dk can break fear via Zerker Rage and Lichborne, the problem that Disc have, they don't have really a CD to counter Melee Dmg or at least properly reduce it.

    Even if you can't break fear with a spell, you can still get dispelled (since you play 100% offensive if you train a Disc with every CD) or use Trinket, next fear won't be ready until CD's are over anyway.

    If a Feral and Warrior start to train a Disc you will have a Problem because they will blow any CC available to them, Ferals are unkiteable and they got Stampeding twice thanks to Symbiosis.

    Spectral Guise isn't that helpful vs Melees and Pain Sup isn't strong enough to counter these CD's.

    There's a reason why Disc is currently weak in Arena, any Comp with Warrior / Feral just rolls over them, they do decent vs Caster comps but vs Melees Comps a Disc is just a Dead guy.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2013-01-19 at 06:13 PM.
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    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


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