5.2 Shaman changes

[Deleted]

Once again:

Yet if you want to do maximum damage you still have to flame shock first. So what's changed?

[Recom]

By that logic, there was no need for the change since you could just cast lava burst onto non FS affected targets.

I don't see the problem, we know have more choices which is always a good thing and we don't lose anything in the process.

As you said, if the targets dies fast enough there's no point for the elem to switch at the moment and I usually didn't but in 5.2 we can assist a little.

[Sarevokcz]

Once again:

No you dont, thats the point. LvB + fulmi does more on the add than two ticks of FlS + stronger LvB. Of course if you are hunting WoL records, you wouldnt switch anyway, as its dps loss either way, but way less severe with the 5.2 change.

---------- Post added 2013-02-12 at 07:10 PM ----------

I don't see the problem, we know have more choices which is always a good thing and we don't lose anything in the process.

As you said, if the targets dies fast enough there's no point for the elem to switch at the moment and I usually didn't but in 5.2 we can assist a little.

well, in 10mans you might not have much choice to switch or not, especially when your setup has usually only 2 ranged

[Deleted]

No you dont, thats the point. LvB + fulmi does more on the add than two ticks of FlS + stronger LvB. Of course if you are hunting WoL records, you wouldnt switch anyway, as its dps loss either way, but way less severe with the 5.2 change

So you're saying the mob will be dead in under 6 seconds. Unless it's got some kind of raid wipe mechanic, whats the point of swapping?

[Sarevokcz]

So you're saying the mob will be dead in under 6 seconds. Unless it's got some kind of raid wipe mechanic, whats the point of swapping?

because its not gonna die in 6 seconds, if you are one of two ranged in 10man and dont switch.

or you HAVE to kill the adds on garajal and FlSing three or four means not a single fulmi down there?

[Aleksej89]

People seem not to understand that there is something between "Maximum damage" and "No damage".

In both PvP and PvE Elem is not doing well, and having improved "Below maximum damage" is a welcome buff.

However many more improvements are needed in order for Elem to become acceptably viable - especially in PvP.

[Mothoin]

I'm not actually convinced they're nerfing Lava Burst damage overall; GC said they're lowering it slightly and making it auto-crit and adding the +50% damage on FS target effect. He phrased the comparison a bit oddly; right now an LvB on a Flame Shocked target hits for 250% damage. What I think they're planning to do is shift that so that LvB does ~83% of the current damage, baseline, so a guaranteed crit would be 166%, and +50% of that would be ~250%. So the damage on a flame shocked target would be the same, but the damage on a non-flame-shocked target is a guaranteed 166%, as opposed to 100% plus normal chance for a crit.

The change would be the damage on a target without Flame Shock, not damage to a target with flame shock.

---------- Post added 2013-02-11 at 10:41 PM ----------



*I* was saying that during the beta.

It may be late, but they're addressing it, at least.

......not a doctor but that math seems off. 166% + 50% = 216% dmg. That is 34% of dmg gone haha. Not QQing about that change to LB, i actually think it will be more beneficial butin PVP it is SO easy to shut an ele sham down, sham pops ascendance - blanket silence/instant clone/poly. We do adequate at best dmg against single targets but we are the laughing stock of the pvp world. we are considered free kills and have childish defensive cd's which make us easy targets. I

Stone Bulwark totem, is a joke absorbing ~40k. in full malev gear with four 2/2 upgrades i get crit for up to 150K depending on class and their gear but that means if i even drop SBT ill still get hit for 110k. which is roughly 1/3 of my health. not to mention the fact that im usually stunned/silenced/kidney'd/cloned/cc'd while getting tunnelled because im a "free kill" i cant even cast this totem. and compared to ice barrier or sacred shield, the "defensive" is useless. OH and its dispellable. gg blizz.
Astral Shift is the only choice for a defensive cd but a 40% dmg reduction just doenst cut it in todays burst.

A change im excited to see is Shamanistic Rage for ele shams, this was definitely needed but it should be baseline for all specs years ago.

Something needs to be done to give shams either an aura to reduce dmg taken (dps spec only) just how warlocks new fel armor is a 10% dmg reduction and they have the most survivability in the game, dark bargain, teleport, gateway, self healing, fear etc.

Ele sham's thunderstorm needs to be more effective. the purpose of the spell is to give the shaman room to cast on a target and it does the opposite! ALL melee classes have a ridiculous counter to it.
TS Feral - Wild Charge
TS Warrior - Charge & heroic leap
TS Rogue - Shadowstep or Cloak so TS is useless
TS Death Knight - Grip
i understand classes need to have counters for other classes but thunderstorm needs to be more effective to give the shaman AT LEAST the ability to cast one spell before being stun locked again. (all those moves interrupt/stun the shamans spell casting) Give the thunderstorm a 3 second stun to the end of the 20yd knockback to give the sham the ability to cast a freaking spell.

Speaking of stuns, Capacitor totem? REAAALLLYYYY? has to charge for 5 seconds (glyphed 3 secs) and only stuns targets within 8 yards of it!!!??(and cant cast it while stunned) Yet another stupid totem given to shamans to make them think they have some cool moves. it is far to easy to see and counter even with a 3 second timer, warriors use capacitor totem as an excuse to heroic leap away and charge just to stun. compared to other classes with similar stuns capacitor is a joke and its insulting.
Warlocks Shadowfury, Warrior Shockwave, Racial War Stomp, Paladin Blinding Light, Monk Charging Wild Ox, Monk Leg sweep. All significantly better and most instant casts and are unavoidable. Only viable way to utilize capacitor is with totemic projection which usually cant even be used while being trained. remove it or make it an instant cast stun, or combine it with thunderstorm would kill two birds with one stone giving us a chance to cast one spell after using TS.

Mobility isnt a terrible problem for shams with the glyph to run while casting a Lightning Bolt, but with Lightning Bolt being one of our weaker spells im glad to see it will be buffed in 5.2 from what ive read. however, why in the world can druids shapeshift out of roots/snares, when shamans cant? we are changing form/shapeshifting to become a wolf. it should remove movement impairing effects. glyph of ghost wolf is an insult because its a major glyph and we shouldnt have to glyph for what should be baseline.

to summarize:
- Shaman "defensives" Stone Bulwark Totem = useless. absorbs ~40k, not castable while stunned/silenced, dispellable. mages ice barrier, pallys sacred shield & priests power word: shield just put our sad excuse for a shield to shame......astral shift is mediocre as well.
- Thunderstorm needs to be given a 3 second stun added to the end of the knockback or needs to be reworked to actually give shaman a chance to cast AT LEAST one spell before being face rolled.
- Capcitor totem needs to either become an instant stun like thunderstorm or just be coupled with thunderstorm to give the shaman what thunderstorm was intended to do.
- Ghost wolf should remove all movement impairing roots/snares just as it does for druids. glyph of ghost would is insulting and should either be a minor glyph
- Hex i think is in a good place, it polys the target but gives them mobility, can be coupled with AS for an instant hex. 45 sec Cd. instant hex is huge for shaman but the 45 sec cd is a deterrent and would like to see that be decreased but being able to instant hex something as an interrupt for an incoming Chaos Bolt is good. but us as shaman should let the chaos bolt get off but get grounded to waste a locks shard. it pisses them off

let me know what you think Endus, thanks

[binkenstein]

Arena, patch 5.2

<Flame shock is dispelled>

Elemental Shaman: i can use my LvB anyway, EAT THIS MISERABLE!

Elemental Shaman: WTF!!!!? they hit like a fucking lighting bolt!

Elemental Shaman: WTF!!!!? NO LAVA SURGE PROC!!!!!!!!!!!!

Elemental Shaman: WTF!!!!? New gliph of flame shock is USELESS without Flame Shock on target.... ARGHHHHH!

Elemental Shaman: WTF!!!!? Ok must cast Flame Shock first.

Elemental Shaman: WTF!!!!? OMG what happen to my LvB damage???

You are dead.

/facepalm

Once again:

The difference is that if Flame Shock is dispelled you lose the 50% bonus. However, it currently is a loss of a 150% bonus, so going from 1.00 to 1.67 as the base multiplier is an improvement (and also means FS is less likely to be dispelled as it's not much of a damage reduction)

[Northy]

I thought that was really weird with them buffing aoe and not buffing single target at first but it looks like they're on track to buffing single target, I'm pretty excited for 5.2 so far hopefully all these changes stay and we see a slight buff to lightning bolt.

Lightning Bolt needs a massive buff, slight wouldn't cut it. As an Ele Sham who arenas (I'm a masochist) I can say that I NEVER cast lightning bolt in arenas. Seems silly to spend what amounts to a long cast time to land a spell which hits for seemingly 1-2% of the target's max hp. Elemental in arena consists of EB, LvB, followed by running around hexing, shearing, purging, while waiting for EB and LvB to come off cooldown. Also lots of praying for Lava Surge procs while I am being trained all game during KFC or Wizard Cleave's ham fest. Mostly I lose. My BC And WotlK 2400+ Ele days will never return. Still looking for more in 5.2 but relatively pleased (not fully pleased) with what I see so far.

My idea:
Earthquake (redesigned): Rumbling quakes echo outward from the Shaman, cauising X amount of damage to nearby enemies (doesn't need to be a large amount of damage as it's primary design is PvP) and causing ALL melee or ranged attack to knock enemies down for x seconds. Lasts 5-7 seconds (Can't decide on duration). 30-45 second cooldown (Unsure on cooldown duration as well, but anything more than 45 secs seems excessive).

[shell]

Arena, patch 5.2

<Flame shock is dispelled>

Elemental Shaman: i can use my LvB anyway, EAT THIS MISERABLE!

Elemental Shaman: WTF!!!!? they hit like a fucking lighting bolt!

Elemental Shaman: WTF!!!!? NO LAVA SURGE PROC!!!!!!!!!!!!

Elemental Shaman: WTF!!!!? New gliph of flame shock is USELESS without Flame Shock on target.... ARGHHHHH!

Elemental Shaman: WTF!!!!? Ok must cast Flame Shock first.

Elemental Shaman: WTF!!!!? OMG what happen to my LvB damage???

You are dead.

I don't think its quite that black and white. From the context of the blue post Flame Shock + Lava Burst should do as much or more damage than it does now. The example that you've given could happen but its more likely to happen in the beginning of a fight. If the fight has being going on for a bit, you're likely to have Flame Shock up on multiple targets, which means you will have Lava Surge procs.

Even if Flame Shock isn't on the target your training, you can unleash flame (which I believe is +30% dmg to your next fire spell) and use Lava Burst OR if you happen to be using Unleashed Fury, you can use that for the +30% fire dmg and +10% LvB dmg. Unleashed Fury can be dispelled but you have a window where you can bait a dispel, and even if it does you keep unleash flame for the +30%. Throw in some clearcasting procs and your lava burst can do pretty close to the dmg it would have done if you'd had Flame Shock up.

Its not like LvB is our only source of dmg, we still have Fulmination and Elemental Blast, if we so choose. If flame shock gets dispelled Unleash Elements + LvB, should still put out some nice dmg. Yes, they're going to nerf LvB but unless they're nerfing it by 50% (which would be ridiculous) than I'm not worried.

[Endus]

......not a doctor but that math seems off. 166% + 50% = 216% dmg. That is 34% of dmg gone haha.

It depends on whether you mean +50% or 150%. My napkin math was on the assumption that the flame shock effect would increase LvB damage by 150%, multiplicatively with other effects, because that's the less advantageous option; if it's +50% with no damage loss, that means an LvB on a no-flame-shock target will hit for 200%, and then the +50% from the flame shock effect will catch it up to par. That doesn't match the 1:1.5 ratio that GC mentioned, though.

My overall point was we don't know the exact mechanic, and thus there's no suggestion LvB is getting nerfed here.


The gist people should be taking is that someone dispelling your FS means you'll lose about 33% of the LvB damage, rather than 60% as it currently is. That's the stated intent of the change. You're not going to want to TRY and use LvB without FS up a lot (a quick shot with a Lava Surge proc on an add, maybe), but it getting dispelled is less punitive.

[Nebria]

we just have to be a little bit patient till the next build (or next after next) to see the new numbers

[Deleted]

because its not gonna die in 6 seconds, if you are one of two ranged in 10man and dont switch.

or you HAVE to kill the adds on garajal and FlSing three or four means not a single fulmi down there?

Will of the Emp is the only fight I can see this change actually having benefit. If you can't get a flameshock on 95% of your swapping then you are mannaging your shocks badly. It's not even relevant that you say you want to earthshock an add..why not shock the boss and FS the add? Why can't you do both?

And for PvP let's be honest, you will won't hit for crap without FS up. You hardly are viable with FS on target, leave alone without...

[Nebria]

why not shock the boss and FS the add? Why can't you do both?

you have a shared cd... now you can use LvB where before you couldn't as you had to wait for FS first
think out of the box

[Deleted]

you have a shared cd... now you can use LvB where before you couldn't as you had to wait for FS first
think out of the box

Again, if you can't mannage that you can't do both then you are doing it wrong in most cases. I rarely have the issue that I can't do both.

[Sarevokcz]

Again, if you can't mannage that you can't do both then you are doing it wrong in most cases. I rarely have the issue that I can't do both.

Please, enlighten me how you do it on garajal.

[Shoo]

As an Ele Sham who arenas (I'm a masochist) I can say..

Haha exactly, I think only masochists could play PvP as Ele nowadays... Thumbs up!

[shell]

And for PvP let's be honest, you will won't hit for crap without FS up. You hardly are viable with FS on target, leave alone without...

Depends. I'm under the impression that most players don't unleash before they LvB in PvP currently. I don't have anything to back that up, its just my observation. Better players will but there are more subpar players than good ones. Subpar players are more likely to stick to a PvE spell priority where Unleashed Elements is not used in a standard rotation. So while I'm operating under this assumption, I'm also under the impression that more will use UE if this change goes through. In which case they won't be losing that much dmg from live to 5.2.

I'm making broad generalizations about what I think the average ele pvper does but any way people look at it, its still a buff. Will it hit for crap dmg, yeah, but before it was a pile-o'-crap and now its upgraded to just crap. We're not viable on live but depending on the buffs we get, we might be able to put enough pressure on an enemy player to get them to play defensively. It's all hypothetical until we see what those numbers are and whether LvB will scale with crit.

[HeedmySpeed]

I welcome this change but it doesn't seem like enough.

It may be my ignorance but I don't know of many other classes that have this sort of problem target switching.
Enhancement use to have this problem but now they completely wiped it (save for the Stormstrike debuff but it's minuscule) yet they still penalize Elemental.

It just feels like a half-hearted attempt. I get that they want us to have Flame Shock still be necessary but the Lava Surge talent will always be enough to want to cast it.

They really ought to remove the dependency from Flame Shock.

[Moshne]

We don't have enough information to know if this has any impact in PVE or not. Though reading what is actually said they seem to imply that they view this as a damage increase, not a nerf.

"Elemental's PvE damage will still be lower than we want after this change"

This was stated right after announcing the Lava Burst change. This wouldn't make any sense if they intended this to net lower Lava Burst with no increase to go with it. Merely that they don't think it is enough to fix us completely.

This change is exactly the direction we want to go with Lava Burst. Making it more like Chaos Bolt (and making it easier for them to make the damage scale with our critical strike rating) will favorably impact our stat scaling, and make our best cooldown, Ascendance, actually benefit from all of our stats. It isn't clear if that is included in this or not, but anyone assuming this will be a net decrease is looking for something to be unhappy about. The only numbers included in the post are speaking about relative damage (2.5:1 vs. 1.5:1 with respect to w/ Flame vs. no-Flame Shock.)

The change to needing Flame Shock on the target is mostly a PVP change, making is so you don't lose as much damage if your Flame Shock is dispelled while casting your Lava Burst, it won't have any notable impact on PVE, as we'll of course want to have FS up before casting it, which they stated they want to see continue. There is no reason to assume the total damage with Flame Shock up should be any different than on Live given what was actually said.