[5.2 Balance] Changes discussion!

[Deleted]

I will support FoN as my talent choice the day it becomes castable like Mirror Images and not targetable like now ( or be very OP :P )

An extra 50% damage as quoted above would definitely be something to consider at high haste values. Remember they get more casts with higher haste (I think up to 11 in my original testing?) compared to the base 6 casts.

[mikoslav]

I am sorry for duplicating the posts, this one I have put in Nature's vigil change thread (and it matches this thread more):



Incarnation + nature’s vigil Or SotF + HotW

Before we go into 5.2 and get NV nerf and SotF buff I decided to compare the current damage done in both Inc+NV and SotF+HotW specs.
I went to dummies to compare single target rotation output.
I positioned myself carefully to prevent starfall hitting more than 1 dummy.
My I lvl equipped is 488, 5274 haste BP, I used int flask and MotW buff only.
I was doing normal rotation, prepotted, and did 6 mins rotation.
I used Inc+NV twice, and stopped when Inc +NV became available 3rd time (about 6 mins length).

Then I specced SotW +HotW and did the same rotation for 6 mins (stopped when CA became available 3rd time)

The effect for this 2 specs was Inc+NV was 64 k DPS, SotF+ HotW was 60 k DPS.

Only 4 k DPS difference for 6 mins fight.

I did it only 1 time, but it looks to me that after 5.2 changes, if they stay how they announced it, SotF+HotW will be probably better.



I only wish blizzard thought of some change to HotW 6 mins CD,
cos frankly I dont see any reason to use it for anything but improved tranquility, once in a fight.
I dont see any reason to use it for dpsing in kitty form.
To switch to guardian is too situational to be really useful.

I d love to see a change where speccing HotW would reduce tranquility CD for nonresto druids (and make it 6 mins or something), but that could be seen as being OP.

[Treehogger]

Since i originally posted this in the NV thread, and it felt a bit out of place there:


A change what i would like to see is an addition to Lunar Shower

For each stack of Lunar shower your next damaging spell has its cast time reduced by (33/66/100%) Any spell other than Moonfire/Sunfire drops all stacks.

Gives us more movement DPS without it being worth using during a normal dps rotation.

[Drayarr]

With regards to "cd stacking" if they are going to nerf our only way to achieve competitive dps I will whole heartedly be expected cd nerfs to all classes, otherwise it's completely unfair.
Second, nerfing a talent because of pvp whine is a joke, make it have different effects like pretty much everything else does in pvp. I'm actually a little annoyed about these proposed changes, hopefully they don't make it to live

[Sierra85]

I dislike the way DoC plays, so if they are nerfing Inc+NV then the combination of SoTF & HoTW better be competitive.

[Juvencus]

An extra 50% damage as quoted above would definitely be something to consider at high haste values. Remember they get more casts with higher haste (I think up to 11 in my original testing?) compared to the base 6 casts.

If I remember correctly, haste was making the casts faster but also keeping the number the same, so you basically get bigger spaces of downtime between them. Only on certain haste levels (breakpoints is you like) an extra cast would be added and even then it wasn't stable (e.g default 6, you get haste for 7 but they will occasionally cast 6 and other times 7). Unless they improved their AI with the changes to them.

I also avoid DoC like the plague.

Edit: random numbers in the example

[xtramuscle]

Maybe we're looking at this all wrong.

We're basing the change on the current tier set bonus; How about we ask a new question..

What 2 and 4 set bonus, would make this change okay??

So they're reducing our burst, what if they gave set bonuses that: Increases wrath damage by 15%; Increases Moonfire and Sunfire's chance to crit by 10%

made us much less bursty, but more sustained overall DPS; would this make it okay!?

---------- Post added 2012-12-24 at 04:47 PM ----------

How could it be more damage? If you stop casting, you just spent a whole GCD doing absolutely nothing.

Because starsurge hits WAY harder than wrath, and in most cases harder than starfire, however SF is much closer, so it depends how much of a cast you're clipping in order to work out if its a DPS increase or not.

Taking an example from Grand Empress normal, over an 8 minute fight (with CDs ofc, but no damage multipliers like Elegon)

Wrath; Av hit: 55893 Av Crit: 116509
Starfire: Av hit: 110272 Av Crit: 254275
Starsurge: Av hit: 128761 Av Crit: 254515

However, our biggest problem with maximizing Starsurge casts isn't them being wasted by multi procs, is being unable to cast them whilst there is another mid air. Sort that out, to work like pyro' or lavaburst and we'll be much smoother imo.

[Sunfyre]

The problem with that, xtradruid, is its a bandaid for one tier. We have seen that before. We need a baseline change so we don't face this same problem in 5.3 or whatever the next content patch will be.

[xtramuscle]

The problem with that, xtradruid, is its a bandaid for one tier. We have seen that before. We need a baseline change so we don't face this same problem in 5.3 or whatever the next content patch will be.

I agree it could be better, but maybe its the best we can hope for. With gear scaling; unless DoC and NV get some love, I think the 6% Intellect from HOTW will make it our, go to talent, for the later tiers of the expansion anyway. Maybe they just wanna promote that decision earlier on, to allow people to get comfortable with the spec in advance. Personally I don't like it, and hope this change doesn't even make it to live - but It's a thought..

[earthwormjim]

Because starsurge hits WAY harder than wrath, and in most cases harder than starfire, however SF is much closer, so it depends how much of a cast you're clipping in order to work out if its a DPS increase or not.

Taking an example from Grand Empress normal, over an 8 minute fight (with CDs ofc, but no damage multipliers like Elegon)

Wrath; Av hit: 55893 Av Crit: 116509
Starfire: Av hit: 110272 Av Crit: 254275
Starsurge: Av hit: 128761 Av Crit: 254515

However, our biggest problem with maximizing Starsurge casts isn't them being wasted by multi procs, is being unable to cast them whilst there is another mid air. Sort that out, to work like pyro' or lavaburst and we'll be much smoother imo.

You missed the part where I stated that you spent a whole GCD doing nothing by canceling your cast. Wrath is typically a GCD capped cast anyway, it makes zero sense to cancel it.

I fully understand that Starsurge hits hard, it still does not make any sense to cancel your casts. You do realize that you cannot instantly recast something when you cancel your current cast, you have to wait for the GCD to finish.

[xtramuscle]

Wrath is a 1.7sec cast, gcd is 0.75 and starsurge hits more than twice as hard. Not to mention with enough dots out, like on windlord or ambershaper, you could get a second starsurge proc immediately after, meaning 2 starsurges in a 1.75 wrath cast.

you stick to your 55k Wrath, I'll take my two 125k starsurges.

[crunk]

Wrath is a 1.7sec cast, gcd is 0.75 and starsurge hits more than twice as hard. Not to mention with enough dots out, like on windlord or ambershaper, you could get a second starsurge proc immediately after, meaning 2 starsurges in a 1.75 wrath cast.

you stick to your 55k Wrath, I'll take my two 125k starsurges.

this.


i probably wouldnt clip a starfire that was halfway done but wrath? hell yeah gimme dem procz

[Mudkiper]

Wrath is a 1.7sec cast, gcd is 0.75 and starsurge hits more than twice as hard. Not to mention with enough dots out, like on windlord or ambershaper, you could get a second starsurge proc immediately after, meaning 2 starsurges in a 1.75 wrath cast.

you stick to your 55k Wrath, I'll take my two 125k starsurges.

Cancelling a cast midway for a proc is never worth it unless you are guaranteed to get another proc before you finish the cast, and since that is impossible to know, you don't cancel any casts. Even with 10 dots up it's never a sure thing, it's all about lowering the RNG in the rotation. Besides, you're just as likely to get another starsurge proc after you have finished the wrath and cast the proc, which is more DPS than cancelling the wrath using two procs and starting another wrath.

[markos82]

You missed the part where I stated that you spent a whole GCD doing nothing by canceling your cast. Wrath is typically a GCD capped cast anyway, it makes zero sense to cancel it.

I fully understand that Starsurge hits hard, it still does not make any sense to cancel your casts. You do realize that you cannot instantly recast something when you cancel your current cast, you have to wait for the GCD to finish.

What's he saying is that starsurge hits harder + you can't cast new one even if you have proc until one you finished casting hasnt hit target. You always wanna get maximum when u have proc simple as that.


Also i dont like change to proc, its kinda stupid to nerf our dps burst since when its over we continue to slack ( same ilvl/gear ) compared to persons/classes using similar gear or bit lower in ilvl. Our sustained dps isnt that good it depends on moving and so far there is a lot of movement involved in raids. Standing still we have good dps but still not as good as other classes/
Best way to make us more better dps wise is to buff wrath bonus dmg by 3% after each crit hit + mana for each cast is increased by 6%, stacks to 5 and then reset.

---------- Post added 2012-12-25 at 10:51 PM ----------

Cancelling a cast midway for a proc is never worth it unless you are guaranteed to get another proc before you finish the cast, and since that is impossible to know, you don't cancel any casts. Even with 10 dots up it's never a sure thing, it's all about lowering the RNG in the rotation. Besides, you're just as likely to get another starsurge proc after you have finished the wrath and cast the proc, which is more DPS than cancelling the wrath using two procs and starting another wrath.

You are missing the point, they are saying to cancel when u have proc. And it is gain dps wise, canceling wrath when u have 0.3 sec left to finish casting so you can use proc on starsurge is 1 sec gain in dps due to gcd + since it takes time for starsurge to hit even more if you get another proc.

[crunk]

idk zoomkins cancels his casts for procs and hes usually top 5 dps in blood legion maybe you've heard of them. ill trust his advice but you guys go ahead do what you do

[Griffter]

The problem with that, xtradruid, is its a bandaid for one tier. We have seen that before. We need a baseline change so we don't face this same problem in 5.3 or whatever the next content patch will be.

Agreed. I'd like to see them even out our damage "permanently," not with a set bonus. I still don't even have the set bonuses for tier 14 because I haven't been doing LFR.

[Deleted]

It's pretty much always a dps increase to cancel a wrath for a starsurge, canceling a starfire for one is generally not worth it single target but can be when your multidotting like mad.
And people need to stop seeing this as a nerf until the ptr is out, there's guaranteed to be more changes before 5.2 goes live.

[Deleted]

Everything is viable. It's just down to how you wish to use it.

To simply see the differences just hold tight, and wait until you get some physical playtime of your own. It's all well and good spouting percentages but in terms of simple practicality and how things end up working in the 'real world' proof will be in the pudding.

[huth]

You missed the part where I stated that you spent a whole GCD doing nothing by canceling your cast. Wrath is typically a GCD capped cast anyway, it makes zero sense to cancel it.

I fully understand that Starsurge hits hard, it still does not make any sense to cancel your casts. You do realize that you cannot instantly recast something when you cancel your current cast, you have to wait for the GCD to finish.

Canceling a cast cancels the GCD.

[earthwormjim]

Canceling a cast cancels the GCD.

This is a little embarrassing, but you're right.

Going to add a cancel cast to my starsurge now.