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  1. #61
    Throwing around pw:s while moving without rapture up isn't really viable. Cascade has a long cd and has to be used at the right time to get the most use out of it. PoM+Penance (both on cds) is hardly a lot of stuff do to while moving (especially since you don't want to 'save' them for this). Assuming that holy fire isn't made instant without the glyph and all the assumptions regarding solace are correct it'll most likely be the better option for most fights. Using the new solace+shadowfiend on cd post 5.2 should basically result in the same thing as using holy fire+mindbender on cd right now (slightly less regen than bender since you don't want to use it during shell, but if it's free this easily makes up for it) while mindbender+holy fire post 5.2 will be stuck with a 2 sec cast on holy fire.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Throwing around pw:s while moving without rapture up isn't really viable. Cascade has a long cd and has to be used at the right time to get the most use out of it. PoM+Penance (both on cds) is hardly a lot of stuff do to while moving (especially since you don't want to 'save' them for this). Assuming that holy fire isn't made instant without the glyph and all the assumptions regarding solace are correct it'll most likely be the better option for most fights. Using the new solace+shadowfiend on cd post 5.2 should basically result in the same thing as using holy fire+mindbender on cd right now (slightly less regen than bender since you don't want to use it during shell, but if it's free this easily makes up for it) while mindbender+holy fire post 5.2 will be stuck with a 2 sec cast on holy fire.
    I didn't take into account that holy fire will be stuck with a cast time again next patch should you choose to stick to mind bender. Makes solace the clear choice for me regardless of the math (which favors solace any way, shrug)

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorfie View Post
    I didn't take into account that holy fire will be stuck with a cast time again next patch should you choose to stick to mind bender. Makes solace the clear choice for me regardless of the math (which favors solace any way, shrug)
    Hopefully they just make hf instant, at least gives us the option to mix it up based on the fight and won't make one option clearly superior in every situation (just like mindbender is now).

  4. #64
    Thread discussion:

    I don't think they are making HF instant. I think if you want instant HF you will have to choose solace. Mindbender isn't the best option in every fight. FDCL is better in a couple of fights, tsulong being one of them. The only reason solace is so terrible right now, is because we have too much mana from rapture, so we can't use it well.

    The very purpose of solace was to allow you to use a higher proportion of expensive high HPS spells (e.g. more PWS and flash in a single target healing fight), by sacrificing some cast time. The idea was that spamming expensive spells would net you a higher return overall. Seeing as PoH is a cheap and very high HPS spell and the tier bonuses for single target healing fights, this was definately a bad idea.

    I think the new solace gives you an important utility (instant HF) and better mana return, but again it chains you into using HF on CD, which is not always ideal for disc (especially if you have the 4tier bonus), as its not always perfectly optimal to pop archangel exactly on CD.

    If it does turn out that we need to stack haste (and I think we do), then maximising regen to allow for maximum haste stacking might make solace an absolute necessity.




    ========================================================================================== ==========
    Flamming clueless trolls, who need a massive overdose of L2P (can be safely skipped):

    Quote Originally Posted by Dumbfoundead View Post
    Discipline is not the hardest healing spec in the game. Stop lying to yourself, I am sure once 5.2 you will find the bottom of the ladder just as comfortable as us Mistweavers have the past weeks.
    Clueless mistweaver no1: You may be outhealed by a disc player playing badly but that is because you don't know how to play your class. Mistweavers are still topping the ranks in many fights. The disc players who also top the ranks are those who use all the buttons available to them and that is more buttons than any other class.

    PoH may be doing the brunt of the healing, but unlike mistweavers for whom its mostly awareness of the fight and good reactions that brings maximum performance, disc needs twice as much awareness and to perfectly juggle literally a dozen things to squeeze maximum performance out of their spells.

    No one plays disc perfectly. Maximum perfomance is for those who screw up the least. That is simply not true for any other class. The players who say disc is easy are those who are doing badly, but are too clueless to know that they are.

    Disc won't be the bottom of the ladder after the patch anymore than mistweavers who know how to play are now. Disc priests who don't use all the buttons at their disposal cannot get even close to maximising disc performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyLathusDisc View Post
    Disc is BY FAR.. THe easiest healing spec in the game as well as the most simply designed.

    Spirit shell has ruined this spec by a long shot, what they could have done was just made spirit shell a raid wide cooldown similar to aura mastery with a long cooldown (3 minutes)

    FOr example, instead of turning your heals into absorbs, it acts like aura mastery and for 6 seconds it absorbs 50k from any damage done to players in the raid.


    Right now disc is a 1 trick pony and I hate playing it, but know if I don't we won't down most heroic content.
    Sounds to me like you are one of the players who play disc at 60 and 70% and think that they are doing well. I got news for you, you aren't. There are just a few fights in HoF where disc is grssly OP and that is that. Spirit shell is fine as it is. Disc is both a great tank healer (less so in 5.2) and has powerful utility as a raid healer, even if other classes have noticeably higher maximal HPS. That is not a one trick pony. As for not downing hc modes without disc, that is telling. Disc is useful in a couple of hc modes, where it can slightly lower the difficulty bar, it is not does not make the least bit of difference for the rest even if it performs well, due to heal sniping. Several fights in HoF where designed with spirit shell and absorb stacking in mind, that does not mean disc has the strongest HPS. Look at garalon 10man hc. Holy priests mistweavers and palas dominate the top because this is a true sustained HPS fight and disc still has lower sustained HPS than other classes.

    If you hate disc I assure you, you don't need to play it. I personally think the only reason you do play disc, is because disc is OP in several fights and you can beat other healers easily. That does not mean you are playing disc well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    Dude are you kidding? The only thing even remotely hard about playing a disc is making sure you hit 5 targets with your PoH on some fights. Everything else is just the same old "use your cooldowns and procs when appropriate and keep important buffs and debuffs active"....

    I did a couple of pugs on .....The only thing I had trouble with was dealing with sustained, heavy single-target dps on the tanks......

    I could obviously improve my preformance, having done nothing but LFR up to this point, but the difference between an extremely skilled disc priest and a merely decent one is not as large as you pretend that it is. Most fights I just spam penance/hfire on the boss on cooldown, use mindbender on cooldown, cast PW:S when my rapture tracker tells me it's about to be able to proc again, and macro archangel to abilities that prelude heavier healing (inner focus, spirit shell, PI, etc). PainSupp and Barrier when appropriate and void shift as a panic button.....

    Anyway... it's not perfect play, but it's also not even remotely any more difficult than the other healers out there, and don't sit here in the priest forum and preach to the choir that it is, because it's not. If you ask me, disc's extremely lax mana conservation concerns, and the luxury of being able to stack shields in preparation for incoming damage, rather then being limited to merely reacting to it as it happens, makes disc easier than most.
    The moment you said "I have done nothing except LFR and pugs" your argument became invalid. The difficulty of disc is not beating other healers in fights where absorbs can snipe heals, but producing maximal HPS. You aren't maxing disc healing with that gameplay, you aren't even optimising it. Paired with highly skilled healers in a fight with challenging incoming damage you would be the one getting destroyed. What is telling is that you couldn't deal with single target damage on LFR(!) with what is arguably at the moment the best tank healing spec in the game. I have solo healed LFR with 15 ppl alive and me the only healer from 25% to 0% and that is before disc was overbuffed and 200% rapture. Its not something really special either, most other healer specs could do the same easily. You can definitely improve your perfomance, you can improve it massively, but when you try to do so you will find a very steep skill-wall barring your way.

    Keeping important buffs active and using CDs is one thing, having 4 different short duration buffs that you need to keep active and keeping track of oh say 10 short duration cooldowns, while having to time everything to perfection is quite another.

    The very idea that because its absorb its easier is quite frankly preposterous. You are completely limited by boss timers. The other healers just have to be aware of roughly when something is coming. You have to be aware of exactly how much time is left until the next boss ability at all times and you have to carefully plan what to do well ahead of time. Reacting is easy planning ahead is much more difficult. You are confusing the low damage in LFR, which you can overwhelm with your absorbs, with the massive damage in hc modes, where 10% more absorb is the difference between saving ppl and losing them.

    This is the same discussion as the end of beta, when I was telling ppl disc is tough to play and has really low output and everyone was saying no its easy, I am raping DS hc without breaking a sweat. The MoP hit and there was a 50% difference in the top 50 ranks for disc. I was hitting 2x the rank limit like practically everyone in the top 50. Disc is just as hard to maximise now as it was then. The difference is with the way disc was overbuffed its possible to just snipe heals and beat other healers, without coming anywhere near maximum performance in many fights.

    Outside for a few fights in HoF, which are just made for the disc abilities you can tell just how much skill is needed to play disc well from looking at the ranks. Look at lei shi 25man. Rank 1 72k, rank 11 59k.

    Compare with holy pala: Rank 1 72k, rank 11 66k

    Compare with mistweaver: Rank1 66k, rank 11 59k

    Compare with resto druid: Rank1 63k, rank 11 59k.

    Its the same in many other fights. Only holy paladins occasionally have the same spread.

    Its easy to play disc badly, but in some fights and with teamates of only moderate skill that is still enough to top the meters. Anyone who plays disc well enough to rank in the top50 will tell you that maximising disc is extremely hard. This is the very reason why blizzard overbuffed disc.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2013-01-01 at 11:19 PM.

  5. #65
    Look at lei shi 25man. Rank 1 72k, rank 11 59k.

    Compare with holy pala: Rank 1 72k, rank 11 66k

    Compare with mistweaver: Rank1 66k, rank 11 59k

    Compare with resto druid: Rank1 63k, rank 11 59k.
    Even if I agree with most of your post (disc being even close to the best tankhealer in the game on anything but niche fights is imo. far from correct) using this as an argument is just silly. Being high on the rankings probably means that you are doing something right, but to get the top ranks it depends just as much (or more) on what healers you are healing with and to an extent even how the rest of your players are performing/what they are playing, this disparity proves just as much as hams 'facts'.

  6. #66
    Why would you use Lei Shi as a judgement for anything? It's the worst fight of the tier. Garalon is probably the best fight to gauge healer performance and Discs are ahead by a huge margin. Using Lei Shi as 'evidence' of healer balance is like using Stormwind Stockades as a balance for 25 man HC healing.

    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...00000000111111

    Yeah... Disc surely isn't ahead of anything.

    Also, it's funny that people are asking for Holy buffs when Holy is performing just as well as Holy Pallies/Shamans, and on some fights Mistweavers. The sad truth is that no-one plays Holy because speccing Disc reduces the number of skills needed to play to (max) 4 and increases the healing you do by 25-30%.

    I could pick apart every single argument Havoc has but the chance he would listen is close to 0%. Anyone who argues Disc is complicated, or has ever been complicated in PvE, are beyond ridiculous. This is my Disc Priest: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../clarqt/simple (I haven't touched it in a while) but I was able to completely faceroll people on the meters via speccing Disc and using my shadow gear - even with the shadow trinkets/gems. The spirit value is telling too. Playing Disc is as easy as it has ever been.

    PS: Using all your skills on CD is a HPS loss for Disc, spamming PoH with PW:S every 15-20 seconds, using SS to deny others the chance to heal the biggest spikes in the game (Shek'zeer's heroic discharge or HC Vizier's F&V) and only changing to Penance/HF/PoM for movement is generally how you maximise HPS.

    And if you want to compare the number of buttons Mistweavers use, I use 29 keybinds in a raid. 30 if I'm on dispell duty.
    Last edited by HamSandwichFace; 2013-01-02 at 04:28 AM.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    And if you want to compare the number of buttons Mistweavers use, I use 29 keybinds in a raid. 30 if I'm on dispell duty.
    I use 29 buttons as well, so that argument holds no value.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Urumii View Post
    I use 29 buttons as well, so that argument holds no value.
    Then you're doing something wrong because on My Disc all I use is 8 (and 2 of those have hugely long CDs).

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    Then you're doing something wrong because on My Disc all I use is 8 (and 2 of those have hugely long CDs).
    Says the monk...

    I have around 32 and that's not counting buffs and pots and other stuff that I have hidden that you're probably counting. Also some of those are like 2-3 spells macroed together. And honestly let's not associate class complexity with keybinds Lol this is just getting silly now.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Whicker View Post
    Says the monk...

    I have around 32 and that's not counting buffs and pots and other stuff that I have hidden that you're probably counting. Also some of those are like 2-3 spells macroed together. And honestly let's not associate class complexity with keybinds Lol this is just getting silly now.
    I agree.

    I think calling Disc the "hardest healing spec to play" is a bit of a joke though.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    Then you're doing something wrong because on My Disc all I use is 8 (and 2 of those have hugely long CDs).
    No offense, but your disc has cleared some normal modes >.>, unless there's some bug on the armory again. And aren't you the guy that was playing a pala in DS and explaining how balanced they are on the wow forums? Now you play a monk, strange inclination to big numbers on short term commitment relationships with your main.

    The sad truth is that no-one plays Holy because speccing Disc reduces the number of skills needed to play to (max) 4 and increases the healing you do by 25-30%.
    Can you explain to me what are the extra buttons holy uses compared to disc?

    PS: Using all your skills on CD is a HPS loss for Disc, spamming PoH with PW:S every 15-20 seconds, using SS to deny others the chance to heal the biggest spikes in the game (Shek'zeer's heroic discharge or HC Vizier's F&V) and only changing to Penance/HF/PoM for movement is generally how you maximise HPS.
    Which explains why you dont use too many buttons - visible also in your priest's glyphs. Maybe you are happy to be some cushion bot, but most of us consider ourselves normal healers - which includes using all our useful skills, not just blanketing raids, which evidently will be stupidly OP in normal modes where there isn't enough dmg for other healers once you slapped a disc priest in with no assignment other that "do hps". Also most of us are normal ppl, we dont live to "deny others", but hey, if that gets your mood on...Can we see some logs of you facerolling other healers by 20% on your disc? Hey, maybe I can learn from you!

    Well, now that I know who you are, I'm sorry to say that your past arguments have not been the convincing type for me, so meh.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    No offense, but your disc has cleared some normal modes >.>, unless there's some bug on the armory again. And aren't you the guy that was playing a pala in DS and explaining how balanced they are on the wow forums? Now you play a monk, strange inclination to big numbers on short term commitment relationships with your main.



    Can you explain to me what are the extra buttons holy uses compared to disc?



    Which explains why you dont use too many buttons - visible also in your priest's glyphs. Maybe you are happy to be some cushion bot, but most of us consider ourselves normal healers - which includes using all our useful skills, not just blanketing raids, which evidently will be stupidly OP in normal modes where there isn't enough dmg for other healers once you slapped a disc priest in with no assignment other that "do hps". Also most of us are normal ppl, we dont live to "deny others", but hey, if that gets your mood on...Can we see some logs of you facerolling other healers by 20% on your disc? Hey, maybe I can learn from you!

    Well, now that I know who you are, I'm sorry to say that your past arguments have not been the convincing type for me, so meh.
    My character during DS: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...A1rissa/simple

    I switched to my Priest though, now I play a Monk.

    I'm sorry if it comes off like I'm trying to say I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread - I'm not. When I play Mistweaver I make mistakes (I Chi Torpedo's into Garalon's purple circle last week and almost wiped the entire raid ) of course but Discipline is so 'failsafe' at the moment to screw up you have to be some sort of individual who a) pays zero attention to the fight b) pays zero attention to your own character and c) pays zero attention to your keyboard.

    I'm not arguing Mistweaver is hard, it's not. It's a DPS class (that's the best way to describe it IMO) and keeping up/tracking 5-10~ different buffs isn't hard either, but Discipline doesn't need to do anything but use PoH, SS, PW:S, Mindbender, HF and (if you want) Cascade. As a Mistweaver though I have to use 3 different melee skills, 6 different heals, I have to judge 20 seconds in advance when an 'AoE' spike will occur (TFT is really powerful) and focus my healing around that. Again, this isn't hard. It's pretty simple, but somehow Discipline is even easier.

    Also, I don't know about you but I think Holy is 10* more fun to play than Disc. Sparkle spec for life.

    As for the thread, it's silly. You'll go Mastery next patch because the change to SS is barely noticeable until you have super-insane scaling on Mastery (talking 70-80%, which isn't going to happen). Even if Mastery does lose some value, with your Rapture buff I'm sure you can just gem haste + spirit and just do even more HPS because you'll be blanketing DA even harder.
    Last edited by HamSandwichFace; 2013-01-02 at 10:25 AM.

  13. #73
    If you think playing a spec at 80% of it's potential is what should be judged, then yes disc (and every other spec in the entire game) is really fucking easy. Playing disc at 100%/perfectly is on the other hand most likely humanly impossible. Since most of us aren't content playing a spec at 80% of it's potential we argue that it IS challenging. If you feel that you play your mistweaver anywhere close to perfectly you are either incorrect or it's incredibly easy compared to disc.

    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    As for the thread, it's silly. You'll go Mastery next patch because the change to SS is barely noticeable until you have super-insane scaling on Mastery (talking 70-80%, which isn't going to happen). Even if Mastery does lose some value, with your Rapture buff I'm sure you can just gem haste + spirit and just do even more HPS because you'll be blanketing DA even harder.
    From most math I (and others) have done, without knowing exactly how the SS calc will look, crit will probably be slightly stronger than mastery in most cases post 5.2. So yes, this is a very valid thread, unlike your response.

  14. #74
    Also, I don't know about you but I think Holy is 10* more fun to play than Disc. Sparkle spec for life.
    You still didnt tell me the "more buttons" you press.

    I've played both speccs for quite a while and for me, Holy is boring xD. Passive and spammy like hell. And I dont see your priest with a holy specc, nor have I ever seen it tbh. Its an alt free to play whatever it wants and its disc/shadow, so cut the "holy is 10* more fun than disc" crap, will you? xD You suggested to increase the cost on poh to solve the disc "issue" without thinking for a second how badly it would destroy holy.

    I dont get ppl that say it uses more buttons than disc. Sparkles on the floor? You mean the useless shit that sanctuary is? Frankly, half the ppl that claim that holy is more interesting are special snowflakes stuck in the impression they are somehow playing the "superior" and "hard" spec, typical wow player complex. I play whatever is better for my team and I have no special hatreds for either of the speccs. I played holy for the first month of MoP, simply because disc was worse, and I got ranked on almost every kill my guild got at that time, but I dont consider myself much of a holy priest. I didn't see anything especially harder than any other healer I played. After playing pretty much all healers in cata, I find the whole "x specc is harder than y specc" pretty silly. They are all easy to play at a base level and hard to master, and I've seen enough amazing healers of all classes over time to know that some ppl can just get out of a class what few others can. I'm not enjoying disc more because I think its "harder", I'm enjoying it because of the multiple things it can do: sure for you its just best to spam poh and shine on meters, but for me, that's not what disc is about: I love the fact that it can help with dps, I love the fact that it can save somebody's ass with a PWS (even more now we have B&S), I love the fact that I can predict dmg and prevent it, or that I can do triage in an equally good manner. Compared to that, what does holy have? Chakra dancing is generally cluncky, so you'll just stay in sanctuary most of the time and be pretty shit at triage/tank healing. You will spam poh, coh if you need to move, as otherwise its an hps loss, and keep PoM on cd, which became a lot more fun since DI. Sure from this onward, the really good holy priests will do more things, but most of them spam poh/coh/pom and do fine, just like most disc priests spam poh/PWS/cds and do fine. Still, for any healer, there's more than numbers on wol, and as much as I enjoy them too, I'll still toss a PWS on a low hp person even if he might not get more dmg than cast another poh that will make me shine more on wol.

    But hey, what do I know, I'm a half casual player that killed half the bosses you did, so my opinion is evidently moot.

  15. #75
    I feel terrible doing this, but I'm going to defend hamsammich just a tiny bit.

    In 25man, it's entirely possible that having your disc priest only there as an absorb bot is viable. You can bring a mix of healers with different strengths, and discs strength is doing nothing but PoH/Spirit Shell and PW:S for rapture.

    In 10man however, this playstyle is nearly impossible to maintain. With most fights requiring two healers, you need both healers using all of their spells to keep the raid alive while not blowing all of their mana 3/4 in to the fight.

    If I recall, hamsammich raids in a 25man heroic guild, so they are likely having their disc priest sit around doing nothing until there is AoE damage to heal (absorb). Quite a boring and easy playstyle it seems. I like raiding 10mans and having to use all my spells efficiently.

  16. #76
    I raid 25 mans, sure not at bleeding cutting edge level, but I dont recognize this whole "absorb bot" thing. Maybe you need to be in an awesome guild to do it. In mine, I need to use plenty of buttons, and nobody's asking me to not do it. I'd like to see some logs of these amazing priests that raid 25 man hcs and spam one button before ppl assuming what they dont actually play.

  17. #77
    Even if the spamming absorbs on the entire raid/maximizing hps would be the best choice in 25 man (I seriously doubt that) there's way more to that than what Ham is stating as well.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean, but as free heals I meant the atonement ones from solace, which, unlike holy fire, doesn't cost mana - so they are free.
    Yes but you already counted the mana you save from those heals. What you did is like getting a piece of bread for free and then say, "the bread (which would have cost 5€ is free) and I saved 5€" (unintentionally) implying you saved 10€, by mentioning those two things as if they were seperate, while in fact they are the same thing just worded differently.

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