1. #1

    5.2 Invocation Change

    Do you guys think the change to Invocation would prove to be a dps gain or decrease? Personally, I've taken a liking to Invocation over the other 2 talents because of the ability to move freely. Also, when combined with the glyph, I can get a really nice powerful burst of healing that helps out the healers extremely in fights like Feng, Wind Lord, Elegon, etc. When combined with the Temporal Shield talent, I can basically heal myself to full.

    Invocation now removes Evocation cooldown and reduces its channeling time and duration by 50%. A completed Evocation now grants 15% increased damage (was 25%) for 1 minute (was 40 seconds) after an Evocation is completed. Passive mana regeneration is reduced by 50% only while Invoker's Energy is active.
    It still seems like it would be amazing for self healing, with no cooldown and channgeling time reduced to about 3-ish seconds (if I'm reading this right). I'm just questioning if the damage gained would even out, especially compared to something like the Rune of Power.

  2. #2
    Its dps decrease for most fights.. and for very few fights where you couldnt find reliable time to do evocation every 45 secs its a dps increase. But overall for people that know what they were doing a decrease..

    For fire and frost its still better than RoP though cause you just cast it once every 60 secs and its only ,5 secs longer cast with same damage increase
    Last edited by mrgreenthump; 2012-12-22 at 10:26 PM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Silverlite View Post
    It still seems like it would be amazing for self healing, with no cooldown and channgeling time reduced to about 3-ish seconds (if I'm reading this right). I'm just questioning if the damage gained would even out, especially compared to something like the Rune of Power.
    They're probably going to reduce the evocation heal if you take Invocation.

    I like how they reduced the cast time and increased the duration though. I'm sick of trying to cold cast a 6 second evocate before every pack in heroics, 3 seconds is definitely less painful.

  4. #4
    On average it is the roughly same:

    1.25 * (40/45.5) ~= 1.09
    1.15 * (60/62.75) ~= 1.09

    But this means your combustions will be lower, so it is actually a DPS decrease due to that.

  5. #5
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhorin View Post
    On average it is the roughly same:

    1.25 * (40/45.5) ~= 1.09
    1.15 * (60/62.75) ~= 1.09

    But this means your combustions will be lower, so it is actually a DPS decrease due to that.
    Evo is 6s base cast. So at 0 haste:

    5.1: 1.087%
    5.2: 1.095%

    It's a slight buff at no haste. The problem is that when you start adding higher haste values, it screws you due to shorter cast times. I have about 34% haste raid buffed. This results in:

    5.1: 1.124%
    5.2: 1.109%

    I only half expect a slight change, probably up to 17% instead of 15% to make it even. RoP under perfect usage at the same haste values I have results in 1.129%. On the other hand, this could be attempting to add some skill cap by taking RoP, and learning how to position yourself better. I guess we'll find out as PTR goes on.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    Evo is 6s base cast. So at 0 haste:

    5.1: 1.087%
    5.2: 1.095%

    It's a slight buff at no haste. The problem is that when you start adding higher haste values, it screws you due to shorter cast times. I have about 34% haste raid buffed. This results in:

    5.1: 1.124%
    5.2: 1.109%

    I only half expect a slight change, probably up to 17% instead of 15% to make it even. RoP under perfect usage at the same haste values I have results in 1.129%. On the other hand, this could be attempting to add some skill cap by taking RoP, and learning how to position yourself better. I guess we'll find out as PTR goes on.
    Except basing the DPS effect only on damage buff per uptime isn't looking at the whole picture. It reduces the DPET of Combustion and all Fire Mage burst windows. Its a sizeable nerf to Fire's damage as a result. This also applies to Frost and their Alter Time + Icy Veins + 2x FoF/BF burst window.

    This discussion is likely going to be pointless though because these Evo changes will never go live. Why? Because of Arcane. Its already been theorycrafted that you can use 1 tick of Evocate where you would previously have used Scorch and now you can Evo weave instead of Scorch weave. Since Blizzard hates 6 stack camping our Evo change is going to get reverted in some way.
    Last edited by Megotaku77; 2012-12-22 at 11:48 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Megotaku77 View Post
    Except basing the DPS effect only on damage buff per uptime isn't looking at the whole picture. It reduces the DPET of Combustion and all Fire Mage burst windows. Its a sizeable nerf to Fire's damage as a result. This also applies to Frost and their Alter Time + Icy Veins + 2x FoF/BF burst window.

    This discussion is likely going to be pointless though because these Evo changes will never go live. Why? Because of Arcane. Its already been theorycrafted that you can use 1 tick of Evocate where you would previously have used Scorch and now you can Evo weave instead of Scorch weave. Since Blizzard hates 6 stack camping our Evo change is going to get reverted in some way.
    I just love the fact that the player base, in the first 12 hours since these changes were released, have found a way to maintain the 6 stack playstyle. If only blizzard would stop being so damn proud of themselves and accept the fact that this is the playstyle we prefer.

  8. #8
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Would that really hold up though? Scorch had the advantage of actually being damage, and proccing AM. Evo weaving wouldn't give you near the advantage, would it? A link to the math would be cool. I just don't see essentially a bunch of empty GCDs where scorch was, being at least DPS neutral to scorch weave.

    Also yes, 25% has a bigger impact on our DPS because CDs. It also entirely screws any form of haste priority that frost had. Frost's secondary stat scaling goes down the shitter with this change, with haste about 1.7. That said, I'm interested to see how these pan out, though. Starting to address our L90 talent concerns is progress. They're listening, despite what many of you seem to think.

  9. #9
    Starting to address our L90 talent concerns is progres
    What concerns? I have no problems with level 90 talents. The only whines I hear are 'quality of life' whines where some people subjective think Invocating is a 'chore' and that Rune of Power should be castable on the move, but I'm quite happy with both talents and the DPS they provide. If addressing the so called (and to me nonexistent) 'concerns' means nerfing those talents, please, leave them alone.

  10. #10
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensai666 View Post
    What concerns? I have no problems with level 90 talents. The only whines I hear are 'quality of life' whines where some people subjective think Invocating is a 'chore' and that Rune of Power should be castable on the move, but I'm quite happy with both talents and the DPS they provide. If addressing the so called (and to me nonexistent) 'concerns' means nerfing those talents, please, leave them alone.
    Which seems to be the majority of every forum that has mages. I have no issue with them personally. But people keep bitching, so hey, they're listening. I posted a lot during beta saying that there's no real issues with doing them, but I can see where people would hate them. The forums degraded into endless QQ about them, so they're obviously not popular. So here comes the second look at them, and we've gotta deal with the consequences. At first glance, that seems like losing the burst combination of invoc+CDs.

    I also think it was partially done to make RoP more attractive a choice for stand/burn fights over invoc, but that's just my opinion.

  11. #11
    The talents are still terrible, having casted self buffs for X time isn't exactly a fun mechanic.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    Would that really hold up though? Scorch had the advantage of actually being damage, and proccing AM. Evo weaving wouldn't give you near the advantage, would it? A link to the math would be cool. I just don't see essentially a bunch of empty GCDs where scorch was, being at least DPS neutral to scorch weave.

    Also yes, 25% has a bigger impact on our DPS because CDs. It also entirely screws any form of haste priority that frost had. Frost's secondary stat scaling goes down the shitter with this change, with haste about 1.7. That said, I'm interested to see how these pan out, though. Starting to address our L90 talent concerns is progress. They're listening, despite what many of you seem to think.
    Well the one thing to consider with Evo weaving and the current 5.2 patch notes is that the arcane stack is also getting buffed from 144% -> 150% so Evo weaving isn't taking quite the DPS hit as would be immediately apparent. I'd be happy to link you the math, but people are still fiddling with Sims to get it to model, this was just an idea put up in the official forums. The hard numbers aren't out yet. However, I don't see how it wouldn't be preferable to stack dropping because it means an immediate 60%% drop in the damage of Arcane Blast and Arcane Missiles. Yes this difference diminishes as you rebuild your stacks, but it bears mentioning that it would take more than 2 arcane blasts after the stacks are dropped to compensate for 1 6 stack Arcane Blast. The GCD cost of Evocating is almost certainly superior to doing this (trading 1 AB instead of > 2).

    Really there's a lot of stuff being modeled right now. The 3 second base Evocate and the value of Haste for Arcane recently might bring just turn Arcane into a Burn -> Evo since high haste builds will spend only 2 GCD's in Evo compared to 4 previously. There's just a lot of different things this Invocation change means for Arcane and will likely cause a PTR revert rather than trying to discover and balance all possible methods of 6 stack cheesing.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    Would that really hold up though? Scorch had the advantage of actually being damage, and proccing AM. Evo weaving wouldn't give you near the advantage, would it? A link to the math would be cool. I just don't see essentially a bunch of empty GCDs where scorch was, being at least DPS neutral to scorch weave.

    Also yes, 25% has a bigger impact on our DPS because CDs. It also entirely screws any form of haste priority that frost had. Frost's secondary stat scaling goes down the shitter with this change, with haste about 1.7. That said, I'm interested to see how these pan out, though. Starting to address our L90 talent concerns is progress. They're listening, despite what many of you seem to think.
    Exept in like 1.4 second you get 45% mana back with the new invoc, Now that is only 5 arcane blasts, but mix some AM's there and bomb refresh and multi bomb on multi target fights, its pretty darn good option compared to the alternative. Now is that enough to keep arcane viable in raiding, we will have to wait and see..

    Oh and as for the level 90 talents. The game is meant to be fun, and for the most part while level 90 talents bring some complexity to our rotation.. It allways makes me gringe a bit when a game mechanic makes me have to interupt an ivoc, or invoc dont line up with free casting time, when RoP has a casting time making you effective loose 1.something seconds of dps time each time you have to move, and instead you could just cast the RoP while moving and continue dps when you arrive to the new location and I just really dislike IW atm, They should just remove the mana component from the shield and damage component from passive and make it trigger differently, given on heroic atm there is allmost allways something to trigger it that wont kill you.

    And yes they are quality of life changes, but they are also things that no other class has to deal with really in order to max their dps. Now this doesnt mean I dont like the concept. Its just that they all have flaws in them to make them truly "fun" gameplay for most mages.. And this new invoc will be a lot better for that particular reason, now it might and will not be dps increase, but still I like it more for progress fights, you just dont have to worry abt it at all even if you had 0 haste, when before you could get dicked by rng or just not being able to stay put for 5 secs.
    Last edited by mrgreenthump; 2012-12-23 at 06:58 AM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Exept in like 1.4 second you get 45% mana back with the new invoc, Now that is only 5 arcane blasts, but mix some AM's there and bomb refresh and multi bomb on multi target fights, its pretty darn good option compared to the alternative. Now is that enough to keep arcane viable in raiding, we will have to wait and see..
    I understand how much mana you gain, but in comparison to what was being done, you're doing a ton less damage. I honestly don't think it'll be a viable playstyle in comparison to playing it how it was designed to be played. Maybe if invoc was still 25%. But it's the same damage bonus as RoP, without the benefit of being able to sit high on mastery, and straight up doing less damage rotationally.

    I just don't see it being remotely close to what is being played currently. I'd love to see math proving it works, but I can't imagine it's out there.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    I understand how much mana you gain, but in comparison to what was being done, you're doing a ton less damage. I honestly don't think it'll be a viable playstyle in comparison to playing it how it was designed to be played. Maybe if invoc was still 25%. But it's the same damage bonus as RoP, without the benefit of being able to sit high on mastery, and straight up doing less damage rotationally.

    I just don't see it being remotely close to what is being played currently. I'd love to see math proving it works, but I can't imagine it's out there.
    Ye maybe you are right, but still scorch werent really good dps either, and sometimes you had to cast quite a few of em, and with this, when you cast invoc, you will go to full mana, instead of howering at 80-88% so, have to see but its at least looking rather ok atm..

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kodaz View Post
    I just love the fact that the player base, in the first 12 hours since these changes were released, have found a way to maintain the 6 stack playstyle. If only blizzard would stop being so damn proud of themselves and accept the fact that this is the playstyle we prefer.
    Sorry to tell you this, but six-charge camping is going to go the way of protribution. It's completely contrary to the design of the spec as a mana management tool.

    Not that I don't -mind- the six charge camp, it's just I hate having to use a Fire spell.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by panterarules View Post
    The talents are still terrible, having casted self buffs for X time isn't exactly a fun mechanic.
    I agree with this. I'm not sure why Blizzard added these, but I really wish they were gone and replaced with something that is fun and makes you go, "WoW! It was totally worth getting to level 90 for these talents!" Because currently, I do not get that feeling..

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