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  1. #21
    "Each of these animated amber oozes focus mindlessly on a random player." Dungeon journal is actually a good read.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenophos View Post
    Well obviously if you don't multidot you won't get aggro on them, if you have a shadowpriest in your raid or any other multidotter for that matter, so yes it kind of has to do with multidotting
    The adds fixate on people how would you pull aggro off of them?

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  3. #23
    Exactly. They choose their target completely randomly and will ignore everything else.
    Last edited by huth; 2012-12-22 at 09:06 PM.

  4. #24
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    The problem with 'leveling balance burst' was that when we weren't bursting, we were already poor. They've done nothing to raise our "non burst" dps. If the goal here is to just nerf feral PVP (since PvE doesn't use NV), they can make the effects different for ferals than balance. They obviously do this with other talents (such as HotW).

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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    The problem with 'leveling balance burst' was that when we weren't bursting, we were already poor. They've done nothing to raise our "non burst" dps. If the goal here is to just nerf feral PVP (since PvE doesn't use NV), they can make the effects different for ferals than balance. They obviously do this with other talents (such as HotW).
    Some ferals do use NV for pve dps. I personally do not like the DoC rotation and NV was my go to. Big nerf for me :-(

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigzumzah View Post
    Some ferals do use NV for pve dps. I personally do not like the DoC rotation and NV was my go to. Big nerf for me :-(
    nv was the way to go on fights were you cannot tunnel on one target, or when there is burst dps needed. Garalon?!
    It's also a nice talent to take if you feel like relaxing on farm content or something like that.

  7. #27
    As a boomkin, it just seems like it would be more annoying to use now. So i'd probably swap over to HotW, even if NV is still slightly better.

  8. #28
    I personly dont see how people can see this not lineing up with other cooldowns. Its half the CD so you could use it 2x before you line with cooldowns so.. in a way its good but bad if you sometimes are abit slow.. and delay your incarnation :P like me

    I was tempted to go feral again in pve they seem to be doing more DPS for me but im a very new / rusty boomkin. Aint been once since TBC in my resto items for dailys lol.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Shyzhi View Post
    I personly dont see how people can see this not lineing up with other cooldowns. Its half the CD so you could use it 2x before you line with cooldowns so.. in a way its good but bad if you sometimes are abit slow.. and delay your incarnation :P like me

    I was tempted to go feral again in pve they seem to be doing more DPS for me but im a very new / rusty boomkin. Aint been once since TBC in my resto items for dailys lol.
    if you're playing moon druid to full potential you already have a lot to keep track of. another short duration cooldown sounds awful. ideally you'll pop each 1.5m NV at the start of a lunar eclipse however you'll also want to make sure to have it for every incarnation - with all the preplanning for eclipse states we already have to do having to take this into consideration is fucking annoying.

    i honestly hope sotf ends up being better than incarnation now as ive always liked the talent. im okay with either NV or Inc its just the way the two will jive together now thats going to be annoying.
    Last edited by crunk; 2012-12-23 at 02:55 AM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Shyzhi View Post
    I personly dont see how people can see this not lineing up with other cooldowns. Its half the CD so you could use it 2x before you line with cooldowns so.. in a way its good but bad if you sometimes are abit slow.. and delay your incarnation :P like me

    I was tempted to go feral again in pve they seem to be doing more DPS for me but im a very new / rusty boomkin. Aint been once since TBC in my resto items for dailys lol.
    Because stacking buffs is more beneficial and now that's 10% increase: Inc+NV 10% + NV 10% < Inc + NV 20%

  11. #31
    Haven't seen much talk about it from a Guardian perspective, concerning the NV proposed changes. Albiet, just going HotW is likely the safe way to do most fights, I tended to use NV when I didn't need the extra HP and/or on high damage burn phases where I'd use NV + Incarnation and Mangle/Maul spam. I suppose the change is bad if there's only really one point in the fight where you'd want to use the ability or the times you'd want to use said ability already occur >3min apart (most of the times I wish to use NV is in conjunction with Incarnation already occur at this interval). However, with most of the current raid tier being behind me now, choosing HotW or NV was optional, so we can only speculate towards the next raid content and how these abilities may align.

    From a 5man/Challenge mode perspective, I'd say it's likely a downgrade. Sure, the damage is spread out, but if you're about burning things down and self-healing at the same time, it's likely to affect Guardians in similar ways to Feral/Moonkin.
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  12. #32
    It basically lets you splash-heal more often as a bear. It could be a slight DPS nerf, but not really that much.

    In general it's probably stronger than it was for bear.

  13. #33
    I really didn't want to be CD dependent on DPS anyways. Felt too much like a ranged paladin.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenophos View Post
    Well obviously if you don't multidot you won't get aggro on them, if you have a shadowpriest in your raid or any other multidotter for that matter, so yes it kind of has to do with multidotting
    NV is awesome for killing people with the debuff on Amber Shaper. You should only use it with extreme care.

    ^ this also for people suggesting to just macro it so it gets used every CD.

  15. #35
    High Overlord Xenophos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandomGamer View Post
    NV is awesome for killing people with the debuff on Amber Shaper. You should only use it with extreme care.

    ^ this also for people suggesting to just macro it so it gets used every CD.

    That's why you stand alone as moonkin on that fight during your burst ^_^
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  16. #36
    ::MOONKIN POV::

    One of the main arguments I'm presenting is how players must use T90 talents effectively. The easiest one that proves the most rewarding for the effort (NV), will be chosen over the crazy-difficult rotation of DOC, and the overly-situational HOTW due to the lack of flexibility.

    NV is simple to use, and has synergy with other talents and base cooldowns.

    DOC is a John Madden spell priority system. It is absolutely terrible with ANY movement. To minimize downtime on Healing Touch casts, very rarely Healing Touch will be used via mouseover macro to help toss heals on the raid in the quickest way possible; it's simply easier and faster to bind it to a tank or yourself, defeating the purpose of off-healing by twisting the concept of 'throwing out heals to DPS'.

    HOTW is simply too situational to be a raid-viable option. Non-DPS speccs get the most benefit out of HOTW. You're brought to the raid to DPS, you will be DPS. If you are called to Tranq, you Tranq for 6sec and continue DPSing. The concept of filling combat roles was cool on paper, but simply was not translating to exciting/viable gameplay. If HOTW were implemented as passive, and/or reactive, effects, HOTW would be more attractive. (DPS to Tank/Healer did not work well. Tank/Healer to DPS worked out well).

    If DOC and HOTW were as flexible, and had a greater effect on the "Hybrid" design, NV would not be as popular as it was in 5.0 and 5.1. The issue is that NV is an "One Size Fits All" talent. DOC is an exceptionally difficult concept to execute properly, but does not offer more damage/benefits for executing the hardest rotation ever made. HOTW's concept of "Combat Role swapping" does not work in a raid setting for DPS. If the Non-Guardian, and Non-Resto benefits were passive effects, such as a reactive " 'healing' Stagger effect," and/or a "Cheat Death" effect, maybe staple Thorns to Barkskin (Non-Guardian), it would be more attractive for PVP and PVE Feral and Balance as a whole. If the Non-Feral and non-Balance benefits were the same (less damage than currently offered), but passive effects (Cat Form = increase AP and combat stats; Wrath/Hurricane/Moonfire = More damage, no/reduced mana cost), it would keep the usefulness of HOTW to non-DPS roles.

    TL;DR
    Make Dream of Cenarius and Heart of the Wild more appealing and practical. DOC should be redesigned or split to honor Balance's core issues, specifically forced movement. HOTW changed to provide passive benefits (in place of Activated benefits); DPS->Heal/Tank is not practical in PvE and near useless in PvP, and Heal/Tank->DPS works well in PVE and PVP.

  17. #37
    Stood in the Fire Steik's Avatar
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    I use this for guardian tanking and i must say the change looks good.

  18. #38
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyous View Post
    ::MOONKIN POV::

    One of the main arguments I'm presenting is how players must use T90 talents effectively. The easiest one that proves the most rewarding for the effort (NV), will be chosen over the crazy-difficult rotation of DOC, and the overly-situational HOTW due to the lack of flexibility.

    NV is simple to use, and has synergy with other talents and base cooldowns.

    DOC is a John Madden spell priority system. It is absolutely terrible with ANY movement. To minimize downtime on Healing Touch casts, very rarely Healing Touch will be used via mouseover macro to help toss heals on the raid in the quickest way possible; it's simply easier and faster to bind it to a tank or yourself, defeating the purpose of off-healing by twisting the concept of 'throwing out heals to DPS'.

    HOTW is simply too situational to be a raid-viable option. Non-DPS speccs get the most benefit out of HOTW. You're brought to the raid to DPS, you will be DPS. If you are called to Tranq, you Tranq for 6sec and continue DPSing. The concept of filling combat roles was cool on paper, but simply was not translating to exciting/viable gameplay. If HOTW were implemented as passive, and/or reactive, effects, HOTW would be more attractive. (DPS to Tank/Healer did not work well. Tank/Healer to DPS worked out well).

    If DOC and HOTW were as flexible, and had a greater effect on the "Hybrid" design, NV would not be as popular as it was in 5.0 and 5.1. The issue is that NV is an "One Size Fits All" talent. DOC is an exceptionally difficult concept to execute properly, but does not offer more damage/benefits for executing the hardest rotation ever made. HOTW's concept of "Combat Role swapping" does not work in a raid setting for DPS. If the Non-Guardian, and Non-Resto benefits were passive effects, such as a reactive " 'healing' Stagger effect," and/or a "Cheat Death" effect, maybe staple Thorns to Barkskin (Non-Guardian), it would be more attractive for PVP and PVE Feral and Balance as a whole. If the Non-Feral and non-Balance benefits were the same (less damage than currently offered), but passive effects (Cat Form = increase AP and combat stats; Wrath/Hurricane/Moonfire = More damage, no/reduced mana cost), it would keep the usefulness of HOTW to non-DPS roles.

    TL;DR
    Make Dream of Cenarius and Heart of the Wild more appealing and practical. DOC should be redesigned or split to honor Balance's core issues, specifically forced movement. HOTW changed to provide passive benefits (in place of Activated benefits); DPS->Heal/Tank is not practical in PvE and near useless in PvP, and Heal/Tank->DPS works well in PVE and PVP.

    As a moonkin, I couldn't care less about HotW's healing. The 6% intellect is pretty damn attractive, especially with the nature's vigil nerf. It no longer will have synergy with base cooldowns, so I'm not sure what you're arguing here, and to your TL;DR point, HotW has a passive benefit. 6% int. That's what matters.

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  19. #39
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyous View Post
    ::MOONKIN POV::

    One of the main arguments I'm presenting is how players must use T90 talents effectively. The easiest one that proves the most rewarding for the effort (NV), will be chosen over the crazy-difficult rotation of DOC, and the overly-situational HOTW due to the lack of flexibility.

    NV is simple to use, and has synergy with other talents and base cooldowns.

    DOC is a John Madden spell priority system. It is absolutely terrible with ANY movement. To minimize downtime on Healing Touch casts, very rarely Healing Touch will be used via mouseover macro to help toss heals on the raid in the quickest way possible; it's simply easier and faster to bind it to a tank or yourself, defeating the purpose of off-healing by twisting the concept of 'throwing out heals to DPS'.

    HOTW is simply too situational to be a raid-viable option. Non-DPS speccs get the most benefit out of HOTW. You're brought to the raid to DPS, you will be DPS. If you are called to Tranq, you Tranq for 6sec and continue DPSing. The concept of filling combat roles was cool on paper, but simply was not translating to exciting/viable gameplay. If HOTW were implemented as passive, and/or reactive, effects, HOTW would be more attractive. (DPS to Tank/Healer did not work well. Tank/Healer to DPS worked out well).

    If DOC and HOTW were as flexible, and had a greater effect on the "Hybrid" design, NV would not be as popular as it was in 5.0 and 5.1. The issue is that NV is an "One Size Fits All" talent. DOC is an exceptionally difficult concept to execute properly, but does not offer more damage/benefits for executing the hardest rotation ever made. HOTW's concept of "Combat Role swapping" does not work in a raid setting for DPS. If the Non-Guardian, and Non-Resto benefits were passive effects, such as a reactive " 'healing' Stagger effect," and/or a "Cheat Death" effect, maybe staple Thorns to Barkskin (Non-Guardian), it would be more attractive for PVP and PVE Feral and Balance as a whole. If the Non-Feral and non-Balance benefits were the same (less damage than currently offered), but passive effects (Cat Form = increase AP and combat stats; Wrath/Hurricane/Moonfire = More damage, no/reduced mana cost), it would keep the usefulness of HOTW to non-DPS roles.

    TL;DR
    Make Dream of Cenarius and Heart of the Wild more appealing and practical. DOC should be redesigned or split to honor Balance's core issues, specifically forced movement. HOTW changed to provide passive benefits (in place of Activated benefits); DPS->Heal/Tank is not practical in PvE and near useless in PvP, and Heal/Tank->DPS works well in PVE and PVP.
    The way I see it:

    Once the 5.2 PTR is rolled out, I wont be looking at the talents themselves and raid dummying my DPS to see a temperamental difference between the options. Instead, I'll be focussing on the fights themselves and seeing what proportion of fight types 5.2 brings: ie. multi-target, damage mod and single-target.

    DoC is only viable when we consider a single-target scenario, and fails in comparison to the other two options once you add a second target. Casting additional HT's to buff additional sets of dots becomes troublesome, hard to manage and essentially a DPS loss with all factors considered. With a single-target fight, every fourth HT will be instant, thus offsetting part of the timing issues. We must also remember that in 5.2 we'll have a new 4-piece, and it was our T14 4-piece that made DoC quite attractive (synergistic between lengthier dots and additional dot damage, amplifying each GCD used for our dots), and thus DoC will drop dramatically without the T14 4-piece.

    NV shines on any fight with a damage multiplier, with the prime example being Elegon. If the fight has an in-built damage modifier, even with the NV nerfs, NV will still be a very competitive talent. Combined with Incarnation, heroism, pots and any other on-proc/use effects, the burst spec will still be powerful. Multi-target, NV is still a good choice. I commented on a thread on the retail druid forums about the nerf to NV, and calculated it to be a 1.09% DPS nerf for single-target, amplified by damage mods. It's not too much of a change to take it out of the running as best L90 talent, but it does require you to press another button every 90 seconds - best time would be at the height of a Lunar eclipse, just like during a normal burst phase.

    HotW is still a viable talent. 6% int makes each point of int on gear worth more, and would modify its marginal stat changes. Remember that int gives spell power (= damage), as well as a small amount of crit. HotW would be an attractive option if the nerfs to NV proved significant enough on multi-target fights - I very much doubt HotW will beat out NV on an Elegon-style fight.

    Then there's the option of switching Incarnation for SotF, in light of the SotF buff. Once the PTR is out and WrathCalcs has a PTR version released, we'll be able to see how alluring SotF will be. Obviously, by discarding Incarnation, NV will drop in value significantly, and does have a chance to dip below HotW even on damage mod fights (6% int damage change will still be affected by damage mod fights).

    All-in-all, I believe the Incarnation/NV combo will still be viable, if not the top DPS choice for boomkins in 5.2. Incarnation/HotW will be another combo worth considering, and so will SotF/HotW (possibly NV too). There's no use quabbling until we can assess whether or not the NV nerf is indeed ~1%, and what types of fights we'll expect in the 5.2 raid. DoC is a terrible talent and should feel terrible, its Patchwerk-style demand is a long-forgotten relic of past raids, and thus would only be viable on fights that do not matter.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2012-12-24 at 05:56 AM.

  20. #40
    From a boomkin perspective, I actually do like the cool down reduction, several of the fights this tier have been 5-6 minute long fights. That basically screws you over if you depend on 3 minute long CDs to do competitive DPS. A 5-6 minute fight ends right when you're about to get your 3rd round of CDs, at least now we can get 4 rounds of NV.

    Buffing Soul of the Forest is nice too. I bet you could attain nearly 100% Nature's Grace up-time with it. Makes mastery slightly better than it is now too since you will spend even more time eclipsed.


    Now if only they would fix our AOE, and not punish us for using hurricane longer than 15 seconds (long enough for Nature's Grace to fall off).

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