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  1. #41
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    Incarnation + nature’s vigil Or SotF + HotW

    Before we go into 5.2 and get NV nerf and SotF buff I decided to compare the current damage done in both Inc+NV and SotF+HotW specs.
    I went to dummies to compare single target rotation output.
    I positioned myself carefully to prevent starfall hitting more than 1 dummy.
    My I lvl equipped is 488, 5274 haste BP, I used int flask and MotW buff only.
    I was doing normal rotation, prepotted, and did 6 mins rotation.
    I used Inc+NV twice, and stopped when Inc +NV became available 3rd time (about 6 mins length).

    Then I specced SotW +HotW and did the same rotation for 6 mins (stopped when CA became available 3rd time)

    The effect for this 2 specs was Inc+NV was 64 k DPS, SotF+ HotW was 60 k DPS.

    Only 4 k DPS difference for 6 mins fight.

    I did it only 1 time, but it looks to me that after 5.2 changes, if they stay how they announced it, SotF+HotW will be probably better.



    I only wish blizzard thought of some change to HotW 6 mins CD,
    cos frankly I dont see any reason to use it for anything but improved tranquility, once in a fight.
    I dont see any reason to use it for dpsing in kitty form.
    To switch to guardian is too situational to be really useful.

    I d love to see a change where speccing HotW would reduce tranquility CD for nonresto druids (and make it 6 mins or something), but that could be seen as being OP.

  2. #42
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    Changes I'd like to see in 5.2 (from a boomkin)

    Hotw 25second duration every 3minutes; or passive. I'd love to be able to hop into bear form and tank once in a while

    Doc activated by Healing touch and/or Rejuve!! This would allow for it to be used on a movement heavy fight, wouldn't simplify the rotation any, but would be fun to play in both pve and pvp.

    As for the hurricane buff someone mentioned, I don't think standing still and spamming hurricane for 15+ seconds is fun. Re empower mushrooms, even if detonate is a longer CD, make them strong, but don't make them spamable like in firelands.

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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    As a moonkin, I couldn't care less about HotW's healing. The 6% intellect is pretty damn attractive, especially with the nature's vigil nerf. It no longer will have synergy with base cooldowns, so I'm not sure what you're arguing here, and to your TL;DR point, HotW has a passive benefit. 6% int. That's what matters.
    This is exactly my point. You're not truly using HOTW, you're selecting it for the passive benefit. The actual "Hybrid" healing isn't even considered because it's practically useless to you, as a Moonkin. The idea is to make HOTW more viable in a PVE setting. Yes, the +6% Stats exists, but only to specifically compensate for HOTW's intended use, "Role Switching," (also, it didn't provide a DPS increase to match up against NV).

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    All-in-all, I believe the Incarnation/NV combo will still be viable, if not the top DPS choice for boomkins in 5.2. Incarnation/HotW will be another combo worth considering, and so will SotF/HotW (possibly NV too). There's no use quabbling until we can assess whether or not the NV nerf is indeed ~1%, and what types of fights we'll expect in the 5.2 raid. DoC is a terrible talent and should feel terrible, its Patchwerk-style demand is a long-forgotten relic of past raids, and thus would only be viable on fights that do not matter.
    Subjective, but I feel that same way. The NV change doesn't truly break burst/cooldown stacking. To me, it seems like rather than making DOC and HOTW more appealing to all druid speccs, they make NV look less attractive. The "Bring two ugly friends to a party to make yourself look prettier than you really are" effect will still exist with this NV change, but this change makes NV have less appeal. With that said, NV on a 90sec cooldown is just another button to press within a ridiculously small window to maximize output. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather have 3 raid-viable options for various siutations instead of a one-size-fits-all talent (NV post- and pre-change)

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyous View Post
    This is exactly my point. You're not truly using HOTW, you're selecting it for the passive benefit. The actual "Hybrid" healing isn't even considered because it's practically useless to you, as a Moonkin. The idea is to make HOTW more viable in a PVE setting. Yes, the +6% Stats exists, but only to specifically compensate for HOTW's intended use, "Role Switching," (also, it didn't provide a DPS increase to match up against NV).


    Subjective, but I feel that same way. The NV change doesn't truly break burst/cooldown stacking. To me, it seems like rather than making DOC and HOTW more appealing to all druid speccs, they make NV look less attractive. The "Bring two ugly friends to a party to make yourself look prettier than you really are" effect will still exist with this NV change, but this change makes NV have less appeal. With that said, NV on a 90sec cooldown is just another button to press within a ridiculously small window to maximize output. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather have 3 raid-viable options for various siutations instead of a one-size-fits-all talent (NV post- and pre-change)

    HotW's non-passive isn't completely useless. It's actually a very good healer cooldown. You pop it then use Tranquility. Your Tranquility hits people for 100k+ a tick with HotW. Heroic Bladelord is an excellent use for it, HotW+Tranq the instant phase 2 starts.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by earthwormjim View Post
    HotW's non-passive isn't completely useless. It's actually a very good healer cooldown. You pop it then use Tranquility. Your Tranquility hits people for 100k+ a tick with HotW. Heroic Bladelord is an excellent use for it, HotW+Tranq the instant phase 2 starts.
    I don't mean to pick at details, but HOTW specifically for Tranquility seems like a flawed concept on behalf of Blizzard. Going off our last Blade Lord Ti'yak kill, 6:54 (414sec), Tranquility was up for 6 seconds. The effective HOTW uptime was 6 sec. 6/414 = 1.45% effective uptime (13.3% of HOTW duration). Most Heroic encounters will see a single Tranquility, few will have Tranquility used twice (i.e. Empress). Is it fair to say the only reason why a Moonkin would pick HOTW is to use the passive stat increase? Is HOTW "good enough" or can it be improved to a spell that has more uses, rather than just a mega Tranq for 6sec, once a fight. I have yet to see a Moonkin take HOTW specifically for Tanking. I have yet to see a Moonkin take HOTW specifically for Healing. Moonkin are brought to raids to DPS, not Heal/Tank. Blizzard had to staple +6% stats to HOTW to make HOTW appear more attractive.

    I'm not suggesting HOTW's passive stats to be removed. The activated abilities of HOTW need to be revamped for Non-Guardian and Non-Resto. I'm suggesting that NV should not be changed. I'm suggesting that DOC and HOTW need to be designed to be more useful. While not 100% useless, the current activated HOTW benefits are 98.55% useless. DOC is a long way from raid/pvp-viable and really needs to be redesigned. HOTW is conceptually excellent, but flawed in practice with its current implementation.
    Last edited by Cyous; 2012-12-25 at 05:54 AM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyous View Post
    I don't mean to pick at details, but HOTW specifically for Tranquility seems like a flawed concept on behalf of Blizzard. Going off our last Blade Lord Ti'yak kill, 6:54 (414sec), Tranquility was up for 6 seconds. The effective HOTW uptime was 6 sec. 6/414 = 1.45% effective uptime (13.3% of HOTW duration). Most Heroic encounters will see a single Tranquility, few will have Tranquility used twice (i.e. Empress). Is it fair to say the only reason why a Moonkin would pick HOTW is to use the passive stat increase? Is HOTW "good enough" or can it be improved to a spell that has more uses, rather than just a mega Tranq for 6sec, once a fight. I have yet to see a Moonkin take HOTW specifically for Tanking. I have yet to see a Moonkin take HOTW specifically for Healing. Moonkin are brought to raids to DPS, not Heal/Tank. Blizzard had to staple +6% stats to HOTW to make HOTW appear more attractive.

    I'm not suggesting HOTW's passive stats to be removed. The activated abilities of HOTW need to be revamped for Non-Guardian and Non-Resto. I'm suggesting that NV should not be changed. I'm suggesting that DOC and HOTW need to be designed to be more useful. While not 100% useless, the current activated HOTW benefits are 98.55% useless. DOC is a long way from raid/pvp-viable and really needs to be redesigned. HOTW is conceptually excellent, but flawed in practice with its current implementation.
    tranq is the obvious example, and you make a very good point, but the buff to rejuv and healing touch spam is no nonsense too. if you lose a healer and you're close to a kill you can save the raid. blood legion's moonkins landed world first empress by using hotw bear dps. yeah, its situational, but its not a "bad" cooldown.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by crunk View Post
    tranq is the obvious example, and you make a very good point, but the buff to rejuv and healing touch spam is no nonsense too. if you lose a healer and you're close to a kill you can save the raid. blood legion's moonkins landed world first empress by using hotw bear dps. yeah, its situational, but its not a "bad" cooldown.
    I never said HOTW was a bad talent for Guardian, nor Restoration. Quite the opposite, really; HOTW is actually very useful for those two speccs. It's bad because it's too situational for Feral and Balance, not even viable (You never plan on a tank or healing dying for the sake of a strategy). I offered a set of suggestions to keep the viability of Guardian and Restoration HOTW'ing to DPS, but make Feral and Balance HOTW more appealing. (Lets be honest here, If you're a healer, will you ever go tank for a fight? How about tank to healer? [HOTW+Tranq excluded since you're using HOTW for only 6sec, worth it])

    I'll present it in an easy-to-read manner:
    Code:
    Heart of the Wild
    
    Your knowledge of the versatility of druids has increased your Stamina, Agility and Intellect by 6%.  In addition, your secondary combat roles have greatly improved.  These effects are passive.
    
    Non-Guardian: Barkskin will apply Thorns to the druid, causing enemies to inflict 10% of incoming damage back to themselves.
    
    Non-Restoration:  Reduces of cooldown of Tranquility by 5min.   In addition, you heal back 10% of incoming damage of 10 sec.  This effect cannot exceed 15% of your maximum health. (1.5% per 1 seconds)
    
    Non-Feral:  While in Cat Form, increases your Agility, Hit and Expertise.  The agility bonus provided will be +85% of your Agility or Intellect, whichever is more beneficial to you.
    
    Non-Balance: Increases the direct damage done by Wrath, Moonfire and Hurricane by 80% and the periodic damage of Moonfire by 240%.  These spell cost no mana.  Your Spell Hit Chance is increased.
    Basically, the suggestion above nerfs the benefits of non-Balance/Feral by ~25% on all fronts. This is because my HOTW is passive, not activated. In spirit of the current HOTW, these values will allow Resto and Guardian to still do a very good amount of damage without being a true DPS (they're up there in damage, but should still be well below true DPS). The non-Resto/Guardian changes will be very useful for PVP and PVE. Non-Resto cuts the healing from +50% to +0%, in return, Tranquility is now a 3 minute cooldown. Non-Guardian druids will get a very PvP friendly effect. Guardian druids get an "inverse Stagger" and Bearcat/Bearchicken abilities.

    Again, these are only suggestions. Maybe you will like these over the current HOTW. Paired up against the current NV (20%, 3min CD), you get a fair trade off of on demand Burst damage and healing, or a steady flow of low and sustained passives.
    Last edited by Cyous; 2012-12-26 at 08:01 AM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyous View Post
    I never said HOTW was a bad talent for Guardian, nor Restoration. Quite the opposite, really; HOTW is actually very useful for those two speccs. It's bad because it's too situational for Feral and Balance, not even viable (You never plan on a tank or healing dying for the sake of a strategy). I offered a set of suggestions to keep the viability of Guardian and Restoration HOTW'ing to DPS, but make Feral and Balance HOTW more appealing. (Lets be honest here, If you're a healer, will you ever go tank for a fight? How about tank to healer? [HOTW+Tranq excluded since you're using HOTW for only 6sec, worth it])

    I'll present it in an easy-to-read manner:
    Code:
    Heart of the Wild
    
    Your knowledge of the versatility of druids has increased your Stamina, Agility and Intellect by 6%.  In addition, your secondary combat roles have greatly improved.  These effects are passive.
    
    Non-Guardian: Barkskin will apply Thorns to the druid, causing enemies to inflict 10% of incoming damage back to themselves.
    
    Non-Restoration:  Reduces of cooldown of Tranquility by 5min.   In addition, you heal back 10% of incoming damage of 10 sec.  This effect cannot exceed 15% of your maximum health. (1.5% per 1 seconds)
    
    Non-Feral:  While in Cat Form, increases your Agility, Hit and Expertise.  The agility bonus provided will be +85% of your Agility or Intellect, whichever is more beneficial to you.
    
    Non-Balance: Increases the direct damage done by Wrath, Moonfire and Hurricane by 80% and the periodic damage of Moonfire by 240%.  These spell cost no mana.  Your Spell Hit Chance is increased.
    Basically, the suggestion above nerfs the benefits of non-Balance/Feral by ~25% on all fronts. This is because my HOTW is passive, not activated. In spirit of the current HOTW, these values will allow Resto and Guardian to still do a very good amount of damage without being a true DPS (they're up there in damage, but should still be well below true DPS). The non-Resto/Guardian changes will be very useful for PVP and PVE. Non-Resto cuts the healing from +50% to +0%, in return, Tranquility is now a 3 minute cooldown. Non-Guardian druids will get a very PvP friendly effect. Guardian druids get an "inverse Stagger" and Bearcat/Bearchicken abilities.

    Again, these are only suggestions. Maybe you will like these over the current HOTW. Paired up against the current NV (20%, 3min CD), you get a fair trade off of on demand Burst damage and healing, or a steady flow of low and sustained passives.
    The talent is fine, the on use is not designed to be in your rotation. The passive int bonus is the DPS increase from it, and on top of that you get the added bonus of being a back up tank if shit hits the fan, or a back up healer should one of your healers go down, or an insane healing cooldown in cases of extreme predictable raid damage. How can you complain about having the utility of a 100k+ a tick tranquility?

    Damage is great, but utility is king. HotW is one of the few truly unique yet still useful talents out there.
    Last edited by earthwormjim; 2012-12-26 at 09:52 AM.

  9. #49
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by earthwormjim View Post
    The talent is fine, the on use is not designed to be in your rotation. The passive int bonus is the DPS increase from it, and on top of that you get the added bonus of being a back up tank if shit hits the fan, or a back up healer should one of your healers go down, or an insane healing cooldown in cases of extreme predictable raid damage. How can you complain about having the utility of a 100k+ a tick tranquility?

    Damage is great, but utility is king. HotW is one of the few truly unique yet still useful talents out there.
    If you think you can honestly be a 'back up healer' or 'back up tank' in anything other than 5man dungeons...

    The only thing HotW gives balance, currently, is the ability to have an uber tranquility raid cooldown.

    For feral, they get some decent DPS at ranged, for certain scenarios where they can't get in and melee safely (and an uber tranquility raid cooldown). The whole point the OP was making on these changes is to give *real* utility, and not this imaginative 'save the day' superman cooldown which makes absolutely no sense in anything outside of 5mans.

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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by earthwormjim View Post
    The talent is fine, the on use is not designed to be in your rotation. The passive int bonus is the DPS increase from it, and on top of that you get the added bonus of being a back up tank if shit hits the fan, or a back up healer should one of your healers go down, or an insane healing cooldown in cases of extreme predictable raid damage. How can you complain about having the utility of a 100k+ a tick tranquility?

    Damage is great, but utility is king. HotW is one of the few truly unique yet still useful talents out there.
    It's really not that great. It's a super amazing Tranq for 6sec. It's used once a fight. It's 100k*5*6 ticks, 3mil healing AT BEST, whereas as my NV in the opener on Blade Lord (25H) would have healed for nearly 2mil, given proper circumstances. In addition to that, Tranquility does ~1.1mil. Just from the opener and a subsequent Tranq, that's 3.1mil, and I can still use NV 1-2 more times in that given fight (for much less potential healing though).

    Fair question: Tank or Healer dies. Do you pop HOTW and try to heal/tank, or do you Rebirth the dead player?

    Not trying to be mean or stubborn, just making points.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyous View Post
    It's really not that great. It's a super amazing Tranq for 6sec. It's used once a fight. It's 100k*5*6 ticks, 3mil healing AT BEST, whereas as my NV in the opener on Blade Lord (25H) would have healed for nearly 2mil, given proper circumstances. In addition to that, Tranquility does ~1.1mil. Just from the opener and a subsequent Tranq, that's 3.1mil, and I can still use NV 1-2 more times in that given fight (for much less potential healing though).

    Fair question: Tank or Healer dies. Do you pop HOTW and try to heal/tank, or do you Rebirth the dead player?
    TBH I see no point in healing the raid at the beginning, when all healers are on full mana and when (on most fights) raid does not even take damage. Also 2m healing in 25man is not something worth mentioning. What is it? 0.5% of all healing?

    But in the same time tranquillity is powerful raid cooldown. If executed properly it will save your raid and your healers mana.

    Fair question: Tank or Healer dies. Do you pop HOTW and try to heal/tank, or do you Rebirth the dead player?
    It depends if you did or not use the br limit obviously. If you can't ressurect more people in this fight, then you don't have much choice.

    Also you are not alone in this fight. The first thing you should do when the tank dies - you should taunt the boss, pop cooldowns and tank the boss untill DKs, warlocks and other druids ressurect the dead tank. Otherwise the boss will oneshot someone.
    If your healer died - it all depends on situation. If he died because of heavy raid aoe - then you should definitely pop hotw and heal the raid with tranquility. Ressurecting healer would not help much - the raid would be dead by the time he accepts the res. Also he would not have mana to heal and will die from aoe again anyway.
    If healer died because if his own stupidity and nothing bad is going on - you have all the time in the world do ressurect the healer, other 4(2) healers are more than capable to heal the raid/tank for quite a long time.

    Anyway, talent choice depends greatly on fight and on your own assignments. Choose the one that suites better for you.
    Personally I love NV and to heal the tank with macro on PS procs.
    But I used both hotw and NV on our first kills.

  12. #52
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    Also you are not alone in this fight. The first thing you should do when the tank dies - you should taunt the boss, pop cooldowns and tank the boss untill DKs, warlocks and other druids ressurect the dead tank. Otherwise the boss will oneshot someone.
    Okay, as a balance druid, and assuming I have Wild Charge --

    I'd have to drop moonkin form, wild charge to a melee, bear form, hotw, taunt boss, pop cooldowns (by that you mean barkskin), and attempt to tank the boss. Which will probably just result in my death if this isn't a 5man heroic.

    Or, I could NS battle rez the tank in one GCD.

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  13. #53
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    This thread...just...

    wow.

    If you don't have a constructive comment to post, don't post. Infracted.
    Last edited by Sunfyre; 2012-12-26 at 04:06 PM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    Okay, as a balance druid, and assuming I have Wild Charge --

    I'd have to drop moonkin form, wild charge to a melee, bear form, hotw, taunt boss, pop cooldowns (by that you mean barkskin), and attempt to tank the boss. Which will probably just result in my death if this isn't a 5man heroic.

    Or, I could NS battle rez the tank in one GCD.
    Why would you use wild charge? Taunting boss from the distance will give you 2 additional seconds without damage. Its not like hotw makes you a proper tank.
    You should not taunt boss as moonkin unless you used all your battle resses AND there is no one more suitable to do this job.

    Oops. Meant to hit reply instead of edit. Removed my quote.
    Last edited by Sunfyre; 2012-12-26 at 10:32 PM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    If you think you can honestly be a 'back up healer' or 'back up tank' in anything other than 5man dungeons...

    The only thing HotW gives balance, currently, is the ability to have an uber tranquility raid cooldown.

    For feral, they get some decent DPS at ranged, for certain scenarios where they can't get in and melee safely (and an uber tranquility raid cooldown). The whole point the OP was making on these changes is to give *real* utility, and not this imaginative 'save the day' superman cooldown which makes absolutely no sense in anything outside of 5mans.
    You've never had 1% wipes before where both of your tanks are dead, and 1 person tanking for an extra 15-20 seconds would have gotten you a kill?

    It's a 6 minute CD, it's quite clear that it really is designed for panic situations.

    The changes that Cyous came up with are very nice and creative, I'd be very happy with them, but they're not really needed.
    Last edited by earthwormjim; 2012-12-26 at 09:56 PM.

  16. #56
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by earthwormjim View Post
    You've never had 1% wipes before where both of your tanks are dead, and 1 person tanking for an extra 15-20 seconds would have gotten you a kill?

    It's a 6 minute CD, it's quite clear that it really is designed for panic situations.

    The changes that Cyous came up with are very nice and creative, I'd be very happy with them, but they're not really needed.
    So I have a tier 90 talent that's applicable in 1 of every 1000 wipe scenarios? Brilliant.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-26 at 10:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    Why would you use wild charge? Taunting boss from the distance will give you 2 additional seconds without damage. Its not like hotw makes you a proper tank.
    You should not taunt boss as moonkin unless you used all your battle resses AND there is no one more suitable to do this job.

    Oops. Meant to hit reply instead of edit. Removed my quote.
    Generally bosses have requirements as to where they should be tanked.

    Where I'm standing in moonkin form is not one of them, and depending on the boss, taunting from range is going to kill a lot of people.

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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    So I have a tier 90 talent that's applicable in 1 of every 1000 wipe scenarios? Brilliant.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-26 at 10:32 PM ----------



    Generally bosses have requirements as to where they should be tanked.

    Where I'm standing in moonkin form is not one of them, and depending on the boss, taunting from range is going to kill a lot of people.
    I'm of the belief if my raid's success is dependent on my HotW tanking or healing for a few seconds, then my raid is doing something wrong. By the time you hit heroics and are at the gear level for them (not the case for the world first guilds), you shouldn't be reliant upon a 6 min CD getting the boss down that last 1% - your raid survived the last 99%, maybe they should step up and finish the boss off without dying.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by earthwormjim View Post
    You've never had 1% wipes before where both of your tanks are dead, and 1 person tanking for an extra 15-20 seconds would have gotten you a kill?

    It's a 6 minute CD, it's quite clear that it really is designed for panic situations.

    The changes that Cyous came up with are very nice and creative, I'd be very happy with them, but they're not really needed.
    HoTW's on use function is not viable in a 25man heroic raiding environment for balance druids. It does not increase your ability to tank, heal, or melee dps well enough to make it worth speccing into. From experience, NV, when used at key time when there is heavy raid damage will outheal a HoTW buffed tranq by an enormous margin. Most fight's have significant raid damage during the execute phase, which is typically when you'll be using your 2nd or 3rd NV with BL and 2nd pot. There's also a significant amount of fights this tier with damage modifiers, increasing the value of NV even more substantionally. On burn phases of elegon and amber-shaper you will be able to double as a healer and dps (while excelling at both roles during those 30seconds).

    Your suggestion is laughable from a tank death perspective. As recommended by other druids, you should be NS rebirthing the tank asap so he can get rebuffed and pick up the boss again as soon as possible. You are not crit immune nor have enough survivability with HoTW to take a single melee swing reliably. With most raids have a warrior, they will most definitely ask them to step in with die by the sword before a moonkin with heart.

    If you want to be able to perform much more poorly at every other spec other than your chosen spec for 45seconds, by all mean feel free to spec into heart. The only fight where this talent is actually viable is something like heroic will, where you need to consistently be doing the same damage getting every add wave down at the same rate, rather dominating a wave with nv/incarn and then falling behind on the next. And as an extra bonus you may actually be able to tank a strength add as well as a DK, warrior, or rogue if one of them dies unexpectedly.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 03:11 AM ----------

    Sorry about double post, but after reading this I found it funny that pure classes have better survivability cds/immunities to deal with a tank death than druids do with HoTW.

  19. #59
    I said it on the official forums and I'll say it here, we need to petition to have NV stay the same at least for moonkin if possible. I used to play mage so I'm quite familiar with ptr changes being reverted :P

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by amoonkin View Post
    HoTW's on use function is not viable in a 25man heroic raiding environment for balance druids. It does not increase your ability to tank, heal, or melee dps well enough to make it worth speccing into. From experience, NV, when used at key time when there is heavy raid damage will outheal a HoTW buffed tranq by an enormous margin. Most fight's have significant raid damage during the execute phase, which is typically when you'll be using your 2nd or 3rd NV with BL and 2nd pot. There's also a significant amount of fights this tier with damage modifiers, increasing the value of NV even more substantionally. On burn phases of elegon and amber-shaper you will be able to double as a healer and dps (while excelling at both roles during those 30seconds).

    Your suggestion is laughable from a tank death perspective. As recommended by other druids, you should be NS rebirthing the tank asap so he can get rebuffed and pick up the boss again as soon as possible. You are not crit immune nor have enough survivability with HoTW to take a single melee swing reliably. With most raids have a warrior, they will most definitely ask them to step in with die by the sword before a moonkin with heart.

    If you want to be able to perform much more poorly at every other spec other than your chosen spec for 45seconds, by all mean feel free to spec into heart. The only fight where this talent is actually viable is something like heroic will, where you need to consistently be doing the same damage getting every add wave down at the same rate, rather dominating a wave with nv/incarn and then falling behind on the next. And as an extra bonus you may actually be able to tank a strength add as well as a DK, warrior, or rogue if one of them dies unexpectedly.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 03:11 AM ----------

    Sorry about double post, but after reading this I found it funny that pure classes have better survivability cds/immunities to deal with a tank death than druids do with HoTW.

    I thought crit immunity was part of the tooltip. Obviously an NS+Res is ideal, but I guess everyone on MMO-Champion are in super raids and they never use up their rez's...

    I don't see why you'd use HotW to tank a strength, all the damage is avoidable.

    Depending on the fight length and the kind of damage required, HotW can be on par with NV as far as damage from the Int increase, and it gives added utility bonuses, I don't see why it needs buffing.

    Nature's Vigil will never heal as much as a HotW tranq when you actually need the healing with the exceptions of Heroic Windlord and Heroic Elegon. Overall NV might be more healing, but most of it's healing is overhealing in a fight, and it's not as concentrated, it's spread out over 30 seconds. You usually only need a raid healing cooldown for a short period of time, and you want huge output within that period, not steady output spread over 30 seconds.

    Yes it's a very quirky talent, it's not really vitally important for anything, however it still has the static Int increase, so it's not hugely behind NV, and it can be helpful in some very extreme circumstances. Would you really want it to be designed around being a necessity with a 6 minute long CD?

    Other areas need attention anyway, like our AOE, not HotW.
    Last edited by earthwormjim; 2012-12-27 at 08:41 AM.

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