So we're rerolling to frost when 5.2 hits? -.-

[Methusula]

lol, 5th from the bottom spec score, and an overall DPS spec resulting from exactly what? I don't see a single fight where SV is even in the top 5. What is the overall dps score based on? The overall DPS in WoL? I hear trash AoE is a good measure of a class's viability. BM is 3rd on Spirit Kings H though, so that's good stuff. Yay?

You are showing me exactly what I was trying to expose. You know nothing about logs. They record ranking on boss fights only. Overall DPS therefor, is exactly what one might imagine, the DPS of all boss fights combined. Spec score is an objective measurement that adjusts weights where "gimmicks" are present. It isn't as useful for comparing hard data. http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/25N/all/7/30/avg/ What are you looking at?

[Feindy]

according to this, combat is the best rogues dps spec, are you serious with it? .D

[mrgreenthump]

lol, 5th from the bottom spec score, and an overall DPS spec resulting from exactly what? I don't see a single fight where SV is even in the top 5. What is the overall dps score based on? The overall DPS in WoL? I hear trash AoE is a good measure of a class's viability. BM is 3rd on Spirit Kings H though, and 2nd on H-Vizier, due to movement, so that's good stuff. I suppose that next-to-last ranking in overall DPS for BM, the far superior (yet still lagging) hunter spec must be the be-all, end-all of arguments. Yay?

Don't use "overall DPS" as an indication of everything. It includes everything in the logs, and yes, on trash SV can pull silly numbers because we're essentially not AoE capped.

Welcome to the world of fire mages, this was the exact reason why fire was low for the better part of cata, our cleave aoe was so redic that blizz balanced us so that we would be abt balanced on overall dps.. So ye rather than whine at mages, maybe go whine at your own class and blizzard devs from making so dog decisions.. It might even work, but letting it out on mage forums on a non-blizz website is prolly the worst use of your and everyone elses time.

---------- Post added 2012-12-23 at 09:26 AM ----------

according to this, combat is the best rogues dps spec, are you serious with it? .D

Are you seriously trying to say that blade flurry aint super good for cleave fights? Sure muti is ahead on single target if you got the gear, but that doesnt mean combat aint better overall.

[Deleted]

I recommand to compare just top 100 instead of "all parses"

[huth]

Trash, PVP, dailies, shit that'll die quickly and can be frozen. Stuff that likely won't survive long enough for the frostbolt+water jet to finish.

Which will get shattered anyway due to being frozen.

[Metallikiddd]

Kalgan ruined mages in BC

All Mage problems are a direct result of Kalgan and "Jaw Dropping Damage"

he ruins everything he touches. so long as he still works for blizz, or just remains in the gaming industry, he is a problem.

Infracted.

[eschatological]

You are showing me exactly what I was trying to expose. You know nothing about logs. They record ranking on boss fights only. Overall DPS therefor, is exactly what one might imagine, the DPS of all boss fights combined. Spec score is an objective measurement that adjusts weights where "gimmicks" are present. It isn't as useful for comparing hard data. http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/25N/all/7/30/avg/ What are you looking at?

So you're willing to link 25 H for Overall DPS where SV is somehow top despite not even registering on many fights (how does that work?) but 25 N for spec score where BM is 7th, and SV is 11th, instead of 3rd and 4th from last, and that's only because MM doesn't even register on anything. Honestly, please show me an individual fight on 25H where SV is a top 5 spec? I looked, there are none. Which is why I'm questioning this metric of "overall DPS."

Also, I love how SV is 1st in "all parses" at 154k....but if you go to "top 100 parses", it's 12th (and BM 16th) at....154k. What that says to me is SV is easy to master but literally doesn't and can't compete. Keep in mind, this is after significant buffs to SrS, if you look at parses from before 5.1, it was even worse.

[mrgreenthump]

Honestly, please show me an individual fight on 25H where SV is a top 5 spec? I looked, there are none. Which is why I'm questioning this metric of "overall DPS."

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Wind_...14/60/default/

[andain]

"Frostbolt now deals 24% more damage, but its debuff no longer increases subsequent Frostbolt damage." - is the exact wording. Icelance and pet still stack to 15% extra unless i'm just too tired and missing another unofficial note.

Has any sim been done with the "Frostbolt cast by Mirror Image now deals 50% more damage."?

I'd expect to see the majority of this first batch of changes to be tweaked multiple times before 5.2 goes live, just as a few others have suggested.

[eschatological]

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Wind_...14/60/default/

A 2 week median is not the standard measurement, and skews results, and you had to fish for one fight to get SV at 5th.

[mrgreenthump]

and you had to fish for one fight to get SV at 5th.

Not to be rude or anything you asked for it didn't you?

But generally speaking I'm with you on the part that hunters need some redesign and carefull buffs. But that doesn't mean mages should be ignored all together. Like sure mages have found a way to be good all the time in MoP, but thats pretty much cause we've put a lot of work on minmaxing everything, AT+ PoM+ Pyro weren't blizzards intention for the class, but it upped our dps to a point that we were nr 1 single target even before the combustion buff and nerf, And again 6 stack camping weren't blizzard's intention, but we didnt like the 1-6 stack ramp up time at all, so people started exploring the possibility of just ramp up once per fight and we found it, and it even upped our dps in similar fachion as did AT,Pom,Pyro macro.

And blizz decided to basicly nerf 6-stack camping and it is done as badly as the Critical Mass before, a change that not only affects 1 particular situation and overpowered mechanic, but changes the whole spec for the worse.. and thats basicly why this and 4 other threads like this 1 excists.

[Notamonk]

arcane will be just as fine, though when it comes down to top specs I am quite worried that frost might be on top. and i hate frost and micromanaging everything. 3.5% scorch seems a bit over the top, hopefully wont be more than 1-1.5%

Read the changes to Fire's Mastery and you will understand why. Scorch should now (in 5.2) be used where movement is required.

[mrgreenthump]

Read the changes to Fire's Mastery and you will understand why. Scorch should now (in 5.2) be used where movement is required.

Still even as fire, using invoc and scorch will be a no go really, it just uses too much mana to really be viable on actual raiding situations.

[Rorschachs]

Thats probably just a tooltip fix, the last updates are the changes.

[Deleted]

Yep it is sad truth. If you want play on higher level and do some heroics you will have to go frost. If you raid normals or lfr you can play w/e you want.

[Deleted]

I will never get it. Why should a player choose a spec with the weakest output potential given by the current encounters, if he wants to play the strongest spec?

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/30/default/

[eschatological]

Not to be rude or anything you asked for it didn't you?

But generally speaking I'm with you on the part that hunters need some redesign and carefull buffs. But that doesn't mean mages should be ignored all together. Like sure mages have found a way to be good all the time in MoP, but thats pretty much cause we've put a lot of work on minmaxing everything, AT+ PoM+ Pyro weren't blizzards intention for the class, but it upped our dps to a point that we were nr 1 single target even before the combustion buff and nerf, And again 6 stack camping weren't blizzard's intention, but we didnt like the 1-6 stack ramp up time at all, so people started exploring the possibility of just ramp up once per fight and we found it, and it even upped our dps in similar fachion as did AT,Pom,Pyro macro.

And blizz decided to basicly nerf 6-stack camping and it is done as badly as the Critical Mass before, a change that not only affects 1 particular situation and overpowered mechanic, but changes the whole spec for the worse.. and thats basicly why this and 4 other threads like this 1 excists.

Do you think us hunters just sit around and twiddle our thumbs? It's insulting to insinuate we don't min-max ourselves - the difference is our max is low, lower than mages ever have been in MoP, and in most of Cata, etc etc, yet in all the class forums I read, you don't hear as much unjustified whining and "sky is falling" comments like the mage forums. You can see this in these infamous raidbots parses, where our "All parses" average is less than 500 dps behind our "Top 100" parses. Even our forums when people say "ermergerd hunters are shit," we just tell them to buck up and deal with it.

As to actual mage mechanics being used "unintentionally" or "not as designed," I dunno. It seems to reason foreseeing 6 stack camping would be relatively easy, as were the problems with fire before its nerfs. The playerbase is smart, but I don't think the designers are dumb. They intend for arcane to have burn phases at 6 stacks (just not indefinitely), they intended for you to use alter time to stack buffs/debuffs, they just didn't make the downsides large enough - in other words, they overtuned mages, like they always do. Mages aren't doing anything unintended, they're just overtuned. Simple as that.

[Shmeh]

Do you think us hunters just sit around and twiddle our thumbs? It's insulting to insinuate we don't min-max ourselves - the difference is our max is low, lower than mages ever have been in MoP, and in most of Cata, etc etc, yet in all the class forums I read, you don't hear as much unjustified whining and "sky is falling" comments like the mage forums. You can see this in these infamous raidbots parses, where our "All parses" average is less than 500 dps behind our "Top 100" parses. Even our forums when people say "ermergerd hunters are shit," we just tell them to buck up and deal with it.

As to actual mage mechanics being used "unintentionally" or "not as designed," I dunno. It seems to reason foreseeing 6 stack camping would be relatively easy, as were the problems with fire before its nerfs. The playerbase is smart, but I don't think the designers are dumb. They intend for arcane to have burn phases at 6 stacks (just not indefinitely), they intended for you to use alter time to stack buffs/debuffs, they just didn't make the downsides large enough - in other words, they overtuned mages, like they always do. Mages aren't doing anything unintended, they're just overtuned. Simple as that.

Mages were fine before the hotfix fire nerf, they broke them in 5.1, and annihilated the fire spec as a response. Arcane is absolute garbage if you don't 6 charge camp, when they blow that play style up, arcane will be near unplayble too. You hear that much "sky is falling" talk on the mage forums because it actually is. When they nerf mages, they don't just tune down the spec. They drive a fucking stake through its heart.

[Tickspoon]

I recommand to compare just top 100 instead of "all parses"

You have a gift for giving terrible advice.

[lhehitman]

You hear so much "sky is falling" talk on the mage forums because it actually is. When they nerf mages, they don't just tune down the spec. They drive a fucking stake through its heart.

I love this so much its going in my sig <3