Thread: 2H vs DW

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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Lamperouqe View Post
    You only think that way because you have that impression in your head. If you had no clue about anything and played DW you wouldn't find it much different than Unholy; HB=SS OB=FeS FS=DC KM=SD then you're left with Rime and DT which are a bit different. Both use BT as their rune resource which requires more attention than RE and both specs utilize PL which is also requires a bit more attention than UB. I think you're a bit biased.

    Personally, after we went from RE to BT I've started to enjoy the DW playstyle more. At first it was just something I had to play since I couldn't pass on the design flaw of HB to play something I wouldn't perform as well with, but now that sitting an unholy rune is gone it feels more natural and BT as a rune resource is a lot more fun than RE to me. RE is a very random feast or famine type of rune resource, as opposed to BT which is on demand and stackable up to 2.4 runes total which makes AMS soaks more worthwhile.
    I think it is more of a playstyle issue than a bias. It feels WRONG to spam an AOE SPELL as a melee character. Many people don't care so long as they maximize DPS, but it feels so wrong to me.

    I am in a 2-day/week guild with a much more casual approach to progression than many of you, so for me I just refuse to play something that I don't like. I don't care if DW does 20k more damage than 2 hand, I won't play it in its current form. I am not interested in being a warlock/mage in plate. Back in DS when I used to care about WOL ranks I did whatever it took to get those numbers, but now I just want to enjoy my character. Our progression problems have been mechanics issues and not DPS checks, so maybe I would feel different if we were wiping to enrage timers, but for now DW just feels like a complete bastard spec to me.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Skarssen View Post
    It feels WRONG to spam an AOE SPELL
    This is a design issue which blizzard has not acknowledged yet as far as I know.

    Hopefully all of the stacking in the current tier will be enough to demonstrate that there is a problem.

  3. #23
    i lvled my dk at the beginning of wrath as frost and continued to raid as a frost dk all the time until cata.

    i simply loved the combination of being a warrior who uses ice spells to shatter his foes from war away. I was pretty disappointed when they removed icy touch from the standard rotation.

    - give HB a cooldown of 10 sec and let rime procs reset the CD of HB (with lower rime procchance). dmg slightly higher than IT single dmg; aoe ~50% weaker

    - Rime should proc of icy touch and icy touch and HB should be affected by KM again. This would push dw further away from the playing style of 2h-frost. Using IT for frost / death runes and OB / HB for frost + unholy.

    - HB should cost 1 frost / 1 unholy again.

    - And Icy touch would be a useful skill again -> primary single target filler move instead of OB (and not just a range dispel)

    i know many people don't like that style, but i loved it

  4. #24
    I hate the masterfrost playstyle too. The fix seems completely obvious to me-- nerf howling blast's single-target damage by 20% and increase the AE multiplier from its current 80% to 100%, so AE performance doesn't change at all. Then change Rime to

    Rime
    Your Obliterate has a 45% chance to cause your next Howling Blast or Icy Touch to consume no runes and your next Icy Touch to deal triple damage.

    Bunch of benefits.

    1) This change kills masterfrost. DW frost would use the hastefrost priority as intended.
    2) Does not change AE at all.
    3) Gives Frost a reason to keybind Icy Touch, as it would slightly outdamage Howling Blast on single targets with Rime procs.
    4) And of course IT doesn't break CC, which is important for PvP.

  5. #25
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    Since we're talking about DW & HB style: I'm feeling the same at this point. When MoP dropped, I thought the new DW Masterfrost style was really cool at first. It was a weird, shiny new toy.

    Now I'm trying 2H for fun, and I have to say that personally, it feels so much better. It's hard to explain, I can't quite identify why, but it just feels so much more comfortable. Probably not going back to DW unless forced to.

  6. #26
    It's not really new, it's very similar to the masterfrost priority DW frost was forced to use in 4.3. You were just probably Unholy due to the buffs to Unholy Might and Gurthalak existing.

  7. #27
    Pandaren Monk hellhamster's Avatar
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    DW is the clear winner when it comes to the best spec at the moment. It is similar (if not marginally better) on single target than 2H, but its AOE/cleave can't be compared. Also make sure like Lamperouqe said to go BT, it doesn't only make the spec more fluid, but totally negates the rune casino effect of RE.

  8. #28
    If you use BT correctly with DW frost, it is anything but "more fluid". You can't just macro it into frost strike-- that is a slight DPS loss from RE gamed against U runes. Although it is much easier to play, since it's totally fire and forget, I guess.

    You use Blood Tap at top priority when you hit 10 stacks and would cap RP by Obliterating (ie, have >=76RP). Then you use it at medium priority if the target is in execute range, Soul Reaper is off cooldown, but you don't have any F runes to Soul Reaper. Then you use it at lowest priority when you have over 8 stacks and the target isn't in execute range. If you don't properly execute these actions in the right priority, BT is a DPS loss over RE. Not easy to do. Not easy at all. That's why I use RE.

    Gaming against Unholy is fairly easy to execute properly. If you're about to have 2U runes up, spend one of them on Plague Strike (if Blood Plague is about to drop and Outbreak is on cooldown), DnD (if AE) or Obliterate.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2012-12-23 at 09:01 PM.

  9. #29
    High Overlord Lamperouqe's Avatar
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    Eh, BT isn't that hard to play with. If you track it well it becomes fairly easy to hit whenever needed. It's not as complex as you make it out to be; in fact, execute range with RE is a lot harder to play correctly since you cannot predict if you will proc a rune to SR with or not, so you have to hold runes at times.

    I don't really follow you guys with not wanting to cast spells as a DK either, since DC is a spell too. Going by that logic, you wouldn't want to play Unholy either, since you don't want to be a melee spell caster. That's what DK's are. If it's the part about spamming an AoE ability, well, I welcome the cleave with open arms as a bonus. In fact, that's what makes Frost so good in the first place. Most cleave/AoE abilities have been purged from dps priorities so far, but for some reason they went with this type of play for DW. I just grabbed the point about "mindless 1 button spam killing your brain" in the earlier posts since it's not like HB spam differs from SS spam in any way, both are main rune abilities used by DW and Unholy and cost 1 rune each. It's just an impression most people have.

  10. #30
    Blizzard have stated in the past that they don't like people using aoes and cleaves on single targets because they just get free damage as soon as extra targets are in range, this is why whirlwind and blade flurry were changed.

    It makes frost very strong in a few encounters right now, but I can't see it lasting. It's just better design for us to not want to use howling blast on single targets.

  11. #31
    Pandaren Monk hellhamster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    If you use BT correctly with DW frost, it is anything but "more fluid". You can't just macro it into frost strike-- that is a slight DPS loss from RE gamed against U runes. Although it is much easier to play, since it's totally fire and forget, I guess.

    You use Blood Tap at top priority when you hit 10 stacks and would cap RP by Obliterating (ie, have >=76RP). Then you use it at medium priority if the target is in execute range, Soul Reaper is off cooldown, but you don't have any F runes to Soul Reaper. Then you use it at lowest priority when you have over 8 stacks and the target isn't in execute range. If you don't properly execute these actions in the right priority, BT is a DPS loss over RE. Not easy to do. Not easy at all. That's why I use RE.

    Gaming against Unholy is fairly easy to execute properly. If you're about to have 2U runes up, spend one of them on Plague Strike (if Blood Plague is about to drop and Outbreak is on cooldown), DnD (if AE) or Obliterate.
    Personally, so far that I played with BT I found it pretty easy to maintain once I got the hang of it. It certainly beats having like 9 frost strikes in a row giving you back 0 runes with RE (oh yes, that happens sometimes), having to explain in the raid why your dps is so stupidly low. It is also the best way to prevent this:

    Also you use BT at >10 stacks if you have over 20 RP and Killing Machine procs, which makes it considerably easy. Lastly, you can use Killing Machine on frost strike easier with BT, with RE you have to be sure it may give back a rune, you waste quite alot of frost strikes without KM. This also makes our T14 2 set bonus better.

    I highly recommend getting Compact Runes if you are to play with BT, it is basically DocsDebugRunes with BT stack tracker. It is downloadable here: http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/compact-runes

    @ Shiira: Then why does masterfrost exist almost completely unchanged since Firelands? (I think it was Lamperouqe who came up with it in the first place).
    Last edited by hellhamster; 2012-12-24 at 10:14 AM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    @ Shiira: Then why does masterfrost exist almost completely unchanged since Firelands? (I think it was Lamperouqe who came up with it in the first place).
    I don't know.

    Ask blizzard.

    It may be because dragon soul was a lot more single target focused than the current tier.
    Last edited by Shiira; 2012-12-24 at 03:07 PM.

  13. #33
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lamperouqe View Post
    I don't really follow you guys with not wanting to cast spells as a DK either, since DC is a spell too. Going by that logic, you wouldn't want to play Unholy either, since you don't want to be a melee spell caster. That's what DK's are.
    Originally though, DKs had a heavily Physical spec (Blood) giving that sort of "Warrior" feeling with a dash of shadowy stuff. Cata forward has forced DPS into one of two extremely magical-oriented specs. It's not a big deal, but the more physical/weapon-oriented feeling of 2H Frost's Oblitageddon just feels better to me than the more mushy, caster-y feeling of machine-gunning snowballs at people. Just personality differences.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellhamster View Post
    @ Shiira: Then why does masterfrost exist almost completely unchanged since Firelands? (I think it was Lamperouqe who came up with it in the first place).
    Blizz takes official stances on issues at times, but doesn't let itself be chained to them. If the devs want to experiment with an idea, they go ahead and do it. I suspect Masterfrost is on their list of "stuff we're watching", as GC puts it. If and when they determine it's crossing a line as they perceive it, you can be pretty sure something will done.

    But they also will hold off on changes if they're afraid it will hurt a spec too much without a good compensatory solution in mind first. So it may also just be an issue of "Well, this didn't work out right, but we'll change it in 6.0 when we have room to do it".

    Finally, it seems like Masterfrost evolved sort of unexpectedly in Cata. They didn't solidify it into a deliberate rotation for DW until MoP, so this all may be a deliberate experiment to see if that emergent gameplay can work as a deliberate design. When GC was questioned about it on the MoP Beta forums near the end of Beta, he made it very clear that DW using an HB priority was neither surprising nor accidental.
    Last edited by Lovestar; 2012-12-24 at 04:26 PM.

  14. #34
    Seriously why is it a problem for HB for DW...it's not its rather a strength that we don't have to sacrifice anything to do our AoE rotation on a Single Target, we're boss in both cases, a whirlwind of ice and death. Also for SR applications its so easy to maintain a high uptime on this ability with no problems. People complain about Unholy's 1 rune SS as well, but I find that in both Unholy and DW Frost it's great...you always have runes to do stuff with and especially with SR its smooth sailing.


    *As a side note...to those thinking it feels wrong casting a "spell" or "AoE", you realize Dks are very much "Casters in Plate" if they want to be, 1st gen. Unholy should be that tree more than it is currently but yeah...it perfectly fits for the lore and if you are DW and not wielding a big 2hander I'd imagine you'd rely more on finess and spells than bashing someone in the face with a huge weapon.*

    *Another note, BT, amazingly easy and awesome to use. Set up a Weak Aura letting you know when you have 6 charges, 8 charges, and capped. Do your rotation, run out of runes, FS FS FS, keep 20 in the bank, get 6 charges, BT Unholy Runes and bam instantly get rid of it FS FS, BT, bam, its very very fluid and during SR, you can empty your runes and FS and know you have an instant SR ready to tap back as soon as it falls off. People that don't like BT don't know how to download an addon and make it smooth and work.
    Last edited by rap87; 2012-12-24 at 07:08 PM.

  15. #35
    It's a problem if you run into bosses where cleave might get you killed (Spirit Kings HC for example)
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by rap87 View Post
    Seriously why is it a problem for HB for DW...it's not its rather a strength that we don't have to sacrifice anything to do our AoE rotation on a Single Target, we're boss in both cases, a whirlwind of ice and death.
    It's not a problem, I'm not asking for frost to be nerfed or suggesting that it should be.

    But the current state of frost contradicts decisions that blizzard have made in the past. In the end it's up to them to decide whether anything needs to be done.

  17. #37
    I find those fights (where you can't cleave) a rarity, put Icy Touch on your Bar and Oblt and FS, you will lose some dmg, but its 1 fight and it won't put you at the bottom of the meters either, as Oblt/FS/HB are close enough in dmg per execute that it isn't the end of the world.

    *I assume the design choice is that no class has a 100% uptime on cleaves?

    Do combat rogues?

    Past that I know coming from a warlock I didn't get cleaves but with Soul Swap you pretty much got 2 target dmg with no issues. We may be melee but their are "classes" that with 2 targets are able to do what we do pretty easily. I mean a warlock might have to keep dots up, but doesn't have to worry about range of the bosses together for the cleave.

    I don't know I would just say they would nerf us and pretty fast if they thought our dmg was crazy overpowered. I find that in theory it is, if nobody else can do it, but at the same time with tank vengence what it is other classes like Rogues and what not I find they compete with us with no issues. I'm only arguing over this "flavor" issue and "type" of spell thing with DW.
    Last edited by rap87; 2012-12-24 at 07:21 PM.

  18. #38
    The design choice that dw frost currently conflicts with is that classes don't get free aoe or cleave damage.

    If you want aoe or cleave you normally have to sacrifice single target damage.

    Rogues sacrifice energy when they blade flurry. We sacrifice nothing when we howling blast for aoe damage because we are already using it on single targets.

  19. #39

    2h > dw

    Quote Originally Posted by Vereesà View Post
    This. I wouldn't advise anyone, however, to ever play DW Frost in its current iteration because the Howling Blast spamming it includes will slowly kill your brain altogether.
    I actually do considerably more dps as 2H. And that's saying a lot as the rotation for DW is the easiest rotation in WoW. Ever. By the third day you will be ripping your ears off as the sound of howling blast will start to make your head hurt; it's spammed so often. It takes zero skill and maybe that's why so many people do it. But if you have the situational awareness, understand the 2H build, and have some skill you can pull far more single target dmg as 2H. Now for aoe once you hit 3 to 4. targets then DW is def better due to the nature of HB given you respec for mastery. But if you get frazzled in raids easy or breathe primarily out of your mouth DW is the way to go. Otherwise go 2H.
    Last edited by zadtrp; 2012-12-24 at 08:33 PM.

  20. #40
    And that's why a lot of the top parses are DW...

    I'm pretty sure Gan and Lamp know what they're doing. Heck, I'm pretty sure I know I'm doing too.

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