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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    If we decided to just not have any physical currency at all you'll end up with problems like not being able to avoid being taxed (government loves this) and you'll have jack shit to show for to counter inflation since it's a total virtual faith.
    Don't worry. It will NEVER happen. Gold and silver coins will ALWAYS have value, because too many intelligent people understand that paper / digital currency is dangerous as governments cannot be trusted. The government is actually powerless vs gold and silver coins. Government can issue a decree that they are worthless, and only digital currency has value, but people will not treat gold and silver coins as worthless. Its grass roots currency. You cannot stop it if you tried. They would just trade goods and services for gold and silver coins on a black market if it came to that.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-23 at 09:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    There's that thing you can clip ontop of an iphone or ipad that can charge people now.

    There's really no excuse for any non third world country to not be on a paperless system
    Paperless will NEVER happen. Oh, it may happen in the short term, for example one generation. That would be an incredibly stupid generation to ignore all of currency history and believe you can trust a government to that extent with your money. But they'd quickly learn their lesson when the currency collapses within a generation's time.

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    Paperless will NEVER happen. Oh, it may happen in the short term, for example one generation. That would be an incredibly stupid generation to ignore all of currency history and believe you can trust a government to that extent with your money. But they'd quickly learn their lesson when the currency collapses within a generation's time.
    The vast majority of wealth, even under a cash system, doesn't exist in the form of cash or even gold. Just saying.

    Money exists because governments exist, so this anarchist propaganda is simply ignorant of history.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    There's that thing you can clip ontop of an iphone or ipad that can charge people now.

    There's really no excuse for any non third world country to not be on a paperless system
    Yeah, requiring expensive technology to use your money is really going to go over well.

    Think about more than just the capabilities of the technology itself.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    The vast majority of wealth, even under a cash system, doesn't exist in the form of cash or even gold. Just saying.

    Money exists because governments exist, so this anarchist propaganda is simply ignorant of history.
    If the average person had any understanding of the money supply and its metrics, their brains would turn to puddingshit with how pointless physical currency really is. Let me try and put it into perspective.

    M0 is the supply of physical currency.
    MB is the monetary base. This is physical currency + federal reserve deposits.
    there are Ms 1, 2 and 3 but for our purposes let's skip 1.
    M2 includes all of the above plus savings accounts, demand deposits, money market accounts... pretty much any bank account you can think of.

    Here's a chart of the US money supply.



    This chart doesn't list the M0 (Which is unfortunate because the actual M0 is obfuscated by the MB in this chart). Suffice it to say there is approximately $900 billion in cash circulating around in physical form. The total amount of money available, however, is close to $12 trillion.

    This is just available money, btw. It says NOTHING of wealth in non-monetary forms (such as stocks or commercial bonds).

    The actual wealth held by the United States is a truly staggering number. Last time I put some dirty math together it was around $100 trillion.
    Last edited by Laize; 2012-12-24 at 05:32 AM.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    Don't worry. It will NEVER happen. Gold and silver coins will ALWAYS have value, because too many intelligent people understand that paper / digital currency is dangerous as governments cannot be trusted. The government is actually powerless vs gold and silver coins. Government can issue a decree that they are worthless, and only digital currency has value, but people will not treat gold and silver coins as worthless. Its grass roots currency. You cannot stop it if you tried. They would just trade goods and services for gold and silver coins on a black market if it came to that.
    The government isn't powerless against gold and silver, nor are we being controlled by paper currency. Gold and silver do not have inherent value and are only given the value people assign it, exactly like paper money. Do you even know why currency came about?
    Paperless will NEVER happen. Oh, it may happen in the short term, for example one generation. That would be an incredibly stupid generation to ignore all of currency history and believe you can trust a government to that extent with your money. But they'd quickly learn their lesson when the currency collapses within a generation's time.
    I could easily see paperless happening in this century.

  6. #226
    I always pay cash - just quicker than the whole annoying pincode entering crap and all the security risks. If I only have 50€ cash with me that's the maximum I can lose. If someone hacks my creditcard he can get thousands...

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryos View Post
    I always pay cash - just quicker than the whole annoying pincode entering crap and all the security risks. If I only have 50€ cash with me that's the maximum I can lose. If someone hacks my creditcard he can get thousands...
    Or you can...get a card with a very low spending limit? -le gasp-

    Cards are only unsafe for the people foolish enough not to take precautions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  8. #228
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    I usually pay with my card but I always have around 50-100€ in cash aswell. You never know when that will be useful!

  9. #229
    Its sad but i will always prefer the feel of real money

    i dont know why but i hate when i have to buy shit off my card

    even though i know i got money in the bank i always have the feeling the card is gonna be rejected and make me look like a cheap cunt at the check out

    God iam so old

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizbeth View Post
    If it was up to me, I'd remove all electronic currency(but leave it in as a convenient alternative) and paper currency and reintroduced precious metal coins.

    Why? Because that would give money a real value instead of worthless paper of a few bytes in some computer that could be gone if some decides so. With precious metal currency, the whole country can fall but money would still be valuable. This would also stop governments from being able to devalue money by printing more of it on a whim. Make more coins? Gold is still gold and silver is still silver so you wouldn't lose anything from it.
    all value is determined by humans, it doesnt matter if it is gold or paper, the value comes from the people that need them

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    The vast majority of wealth, even under a cash system, doesn't exist in the form of cash or even gold. Just saying.

    Money exists because governments exist, so this anarchist propaganda is simply ignorant of history.
    No, money does not exist because government exists. The universal standard of currency for hundreds, thousands of years, has been 1 ounce of gold. The unit never changes. Sometimes, other currencies get invented using other materials. But they don't seem to last. You should read about the end of the Roman Empire. They started out using gold coins, then, in order to help pay for their massive social programs, they began to debase their currency. They developed complicated processes to pickle and boil metals together so that you would have a thin film of valuable metal coated on some cheap metal slug. Eventually, the Roman Empire collapsed.

    Society went back to gold coins.

    As I say, its similar to the SOJ economy in D2. Without currency, people create one on their own out of a fundamental need to trade. Blizzard didn't create the SOJ economy. It was grass roots. In the real world, the same thing occurs, but people will eventually default to gold and silver coins if physical currency is taken away.

  12. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    No, money does not exist because government exists. The universal standard of currency for hundreds, thousands of years, has been 1 ounce of gold. The unit never changes. Sometimes, other currencies get invented using other materials. But they don't seem to last. You should read about the end of the Roman Empire. They started out using gold coins, then, in order to help pay for their massive social programs, they began to debase their currency. They developed complicated processes to pickle and boil metals together so that you would have a thin film of valuable metal coated on some cheap metal slug. Eventually, the Roman Empire collapsed.

    Society went back to gold coins.

    As I say, its similar to the SOJ economy in D2. Without currency, people create one on their own out of a fundamental need to trade. Blizzard didn't create the SOJ economy. It was grass roots. In the real world, the same thing occurs, but people will eventually default to gold and silver coins if physical currency is taken away.
    1 ounce of gold? This is, actually, tripe. Most standard currencies up until the Middle Ages were in silver, not gold.

    Furthermore, when the Western Empire fell, they did not 'go back to gold coins'. The money economy collapsed entirely.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  13. #233
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    Paper doesn't rely on eletricity, internet, and never bugs.

  14. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hraklea View Post
    Paper doesn't rely on eletricity, internet, and never bugs.
    You seem to be unaware of the fact that only a small percentage of money exists in the form of cash.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  15. #235
    Have fun explaining your 96 year old grandmother why there's no money any more and how she's supposed to use credit cards and online banking. And oh yeah, figure out a way to tip the waitress without her having to carry her own private card reader with her while you're at it.

    But yeah, let's just get rid of everything and anything that made sense for millenia because we have computers now. Yaaay.

  16. #236
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    I pretty much always use my pass for everything. I only have cash when i have to return something to the store and they give cash back!
    Then im almost always too lazy to put it back on my bank account.

  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    Have fun explaining your 96 year old grandmother why there's no money any more and how she's supposed to use credit cards and online banking. And oh yeah, figure out a way to tip the waitress without her having to carry her own private card reader with her while you're at it.

    But yeah, let's just get rid of everything and anything that made sense for millenia because we have computers now. Yaaay.
    A lot of people had very similar disagreements with the notion of paper currency. Are you imply that does not work?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    Have fun explaining your 96 year old grandmother why there's no money any more and how she's supposed to use credit cards and online banking. And oh yeah, figure out a way to tip the waitress without her having to carry her own private card reader with her while you're at it.

    But yeah, let's just get rid of everything and anything that made sense for millenia because we have computers now. Yaaay.
    Have you never paid for a restaurant check with a credit card? They bring you the slip and there's a little line marked "Tip" or "Gratuity" on there.

    You fill that in and add it to your check total and sign it. Easy peasy one-two-threesy.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    A lot of people had very similar disagreements with the notion of paper currency. Are you imply that does not work?
    Take a look at where we are headed with regards to paper currency.

    The modern "dollar" was invented in 1971. That was the day the government "closed the gold window" and you could no longer redeem your dollars for gold. From 1934 to 1971, gold was a perfectly stable $35/ounce. Once they delinked, the value of the dollar plummeted, with gold going over $800/ounce by 1980. From there, it drifted downward to under $300/ounce by 1999. Ever since, gold has rallied hard as the US government has gone on a debt bender, devaluing the dollar even more. today its at $1650/ounce. Its going to go higher still.

    Countless nations in history have tried to play a paper (and digital is essentially another form of paper) currency game. In the end, human beings are too corrupt. They find it irresistible to destroy the paper / digital currency to pay for things they cannot afford, like social programs, because it gets them elected to promise such things.

    Digital currency will fail hard if tried. Corruption is too great in the heart of man.

    Let's say your a politician.

    1. You promise lavish social programs to win votes.
    2. People vote you into office. You give them the programs.
    3. You cannot afford it. Tax hikes don't work.
    4. You begin to devalue the currency to pay for it. Debt spending.
    5. The currency goes bad. People are angry that they've lost their savings.
    6. Do you explain to them the TRUTH? Do you tell them it was the social programs they wanted that bankrupted everything?
    7. Do you lie? Find a scapegoat? Blame the 1%, the "rich", play class warfare, you caused the problem, blame someone else, and then pretend to ride in on a white horse and "punish the rich".

    Unfortunately, when you have a nation of selfish, undisciplined people, they will follow right along with the above logic until the currency is destroyed, the nation is bankrupt, everyone has their hand out wanting freebies, and the rich and productive people are either hated or flee.
    Last edited by Grummgug; 2012-12-25 at 12:16 AM.

  20. #240
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    Take a look at where we are headed with regards to paper currency.

    The modern "dollar" was invented in 1971. That was the day the government "closed the gold window" and you could no longer redeem your dollars for gold. From 1934 to 1971, gold was a perfectly stable $35/ounce. Once they delinked, the value of the dollar plummeted, with gold going over $800/ounce by 1980. From there, it drifted downward to under $300/ounce by 1999. Ever since, gold has rallied hard as the US government has gone on a debt bender, devaluing the dollar even more. today its at $1650/ounce. Its going to go higher still.

    Countless nations in history have tried to play a paper (and digital is essentially another form of paper) currency game. In the end, human beings are too corrupt. They find it irresistible to destroy the paper / digital currency to pay for things they cannot afford, like social programs, because it gets them elected to promise such things.

    Digital currency will fail hard if tried. Corruption is too great in the heart of man.
    Again, an unfair judgement because the situations in which paper (or rather fiat currency, which is what you seem to be arguing against) have been introduced have other circumstances of economic instability. Not to mention the issue of consumer confidence.

    Gold is no less 'secure' than paper, ultimately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

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