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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    Given a situation where digital currency replaced paper outright, history tells us that its just a matter of time before government becomes so corrupt that they destroy the digital currency. It would likely happen within one generation. Maybe 30-50 years. It takes time for people to stupidly trust such a system. We know this because there are many examples of societies going through it.

    After that, gold and silver would make a roaring comeback.
    Sure is a lot of history to back up this claim, given how long we've had digital currency.

    Also, gold and silver wouldn't make a comeback even if we went from all digital back to physical.

    To help you understand why this keeps happening, let's look at something similar that we all should now understand: housing bubbles.

    Housing bubbles / real estate bubbles have happened MANY, MANY times throughout human history. Yet they KEEP happening. We just had one in the United States last decade. As the bubble inflated, we heard from MANY confident, smart people that it couldn't possibly happen. People were swayed. They ignored history and allowed it to occur. And then it burst, and many people were hurt.

    It will be the same with currencies. Despite the overwhelming evidence that fiat currency is a HORRIBLE idea, despite the numerous currency disasters throughout history, people refuse to learn. I bet what will happen is the exact same thing with the housing bubble. MANY confident, smart people will tell us that a currency collapse cannot possibly happen, that a digital currency is perfectly safe and government won't abuse it. And people will be swayed. They will ignore history. It will be tried. And another currency will be destroyed, and many innocent people will be ruined.
    Talk about something you don't know about that isn't comparable like it is, think you've made a point.

    And then we will go back to gold and silver currency. Always happens.
    Gold survives economic instability. I agree that digital currency is very unlikely to. Corrupt government will destroy its value to try to "stimulate the economy", or rather stay in office.
    Gold as a resource survives economic instability to some degree, not as a currency. There is no fucking way in hell we are ever going to go back to a barter system, period, nor will people start using gold and silver coinage because of the other uses of gold and silver.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Ironically the federal government spends a ton of money paying independent farmers to NOT grow crops so they don't decimate the market, then get bought out by the big corps.

    My 2012 brain tells me I want to live in a society like the Cultures from the Iain M Banks novels, not the one we have now. I would support any and all moves towards that :P
    And I'd like to live in a society where I was king of the world and all pursuits were driven towards interstellar/dimensional travel. But the one we have now isn't too bad all things considered.
    “Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.”
    "Conservative, n: A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others."
    Ambrose Bierce
    The Bird of Hermes Is My Name, Eating My Wings To Make Me Tame.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Gold is no less 'secure' than paper, ultimately.
    This is a contradiction unfortunately because paper currency can be printed. GOLD cannot be. This is logic and common sense. the only way we can get gold. Is to mine where gold has not been found "which is extremely unlikely" on Earth, or go to space.

    rebuttal?
    Evil is apart of all things, an essential energy of vile corruption. Evil manifests where Good thrives. You cannot have order without chaos. Nor, chaos without order.


  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by shimerra View Post
    And I'd like to live in a society where I was king of the world and all pursuits were driven towards interstellar/dimensional travel. But the one we have now isn't too bad all things considered.
    I didn't say the one we live in now is the most terrible society to ever exist, I just said that I (much like tons of other people, I'm sure) think we could do a lot better for everyone.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    I didn't say the one we live in now is the most terrible society to ever exist, I just said that I (much like tons of other people, I'm sure) think we could do a lot better for everyone.
    Of course when can do better, I just think "today's world" gets shit on far more than it deserves especially when compared to fantasy. We've done far more in terms of human rights and standard of living and just sheer stuff made and learned in the last 200 years than almost all recorded history before then. It's understandable to be frustrated with a slow pace on somethings but the sheer pace of change is quite staggering when you consider it.
    “Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.”
    "Conservative, n: A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others."
    Ambrose Bierce
    The Bird of Hermes Is My Name, Eating My Wings To Make Me Tame.

  6. #266
    Stood in the Fire HavaanSoup's Avatar
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    no a lot of people on lower incomes still use cash.
    "I don't want to achieve immortality through my work... I want to achieve it through not dying."

    Woody Allen

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by shimerra View Post
    Of course when can do better, I just think "today's world" gets shit on far more than it deserves especially when compared to fantasy. We've done far more in terms of human rights and standard of living and just sheer stuff made and learned in the last 200 years than almost all recorded history before then. It's understandable to be frustrated with a slow pace on somethings but the sheer pace of change is quite staggering when you consider it.
    I don't want to bash on religion here, but that graph of the knowledge gap between pre-dark ages and now is pretty telling. Honestly the supposition is that we could easily be a spacefaring race if we hadn't taken that huge leap backwards.

    I'm kind of toying with the idea that a couple militaries already have rudimentary AI's, which will either make things amazing or end humanity forever.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Feardotwin View Post
    This is a contradiction unfortunately because paper currency can be printed. GOLD cannot be. This is logic and common sense. the only way we can get gold. Is to mine where gold has not been found "which is extremely unlikely" on Earth, or go to space.

    rebuttal?
    You don't know the reasons for currency. If you can melt down your gold currency and barter with it for more, then it isn't a stable currency. If not, then it doesn't matter anyway because it's worth the face value regardless.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    You don't know the reasons for currency. If you can melt down your gold currency and barter with it for more, then it isn't a stable currency. If not, then it doesn't matter anyway because it's worth the face value regardless.
    As I mentioned earlier. Or you seemed to ignore a previous post of mine. Barter is still a form of trade. The "ounces" of gold is what matters as melted down or NOT. Gold will remain a universal form of currency until the desire for something completely different comes into our minds. "Value of Possession" is what drives currency.

    Again... common sense...
    Evil is apart of all things, an essential energy of vile corruption. Evil manifests where Good thrives. You cannot have order without chaos. Nor, chaos without order.


  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Feardotwin View Post
    As I mentioned earlier. Or you seemed to ignore a previous post of mine. Barter is still a form of trade. The "ounces" of gold is what matters as melted down or NOT. Gold will remain a universal form of currency until the desire for something completely different comes into our minds. "Value of Possession" is what drives currency.

    Again... common sense...
    And bartering is more primitive and less useful than currency trading, which is where currency came from. Gold is not a currency anymore than copper or wool is a currency, it is a material. Using gold in currency increases the instability of the currency as the value of the gold may easily surpass the face value of the currency it is used in. Even worse still is a currency that is used to represent amounts of gold, as it allows ones currency to be controlled by the market for a raw material.

    It seems like you're confusing the fluidity of a resource with it being a currency.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    Sure is a lot of history to back up this claim, given how long we've had digital currency.
    From the inflation standpoint, there is little difference between paper and digital currency. Actually, digital would be VASTLY more prone to corruption. With paper, they actually have to have printing presses run and distribute the cash to destroy the value. With digital currency, they just log on to a computer and add a few zeroes at the end.

    The threat here is that corrupt governments will destroy the currency via inflation to pay for social programs. Digital currency does not protect us from that in any way.

  12. #272
    What the ....?

    You want gold, not numbers on a screen, one day your Dollars will plummit, and whoever got the gold will end up beeing extremely rich.


    Just look at the banks, it's all funny money, and it's fun while it lasts, but in the end, nothing is valuable like good old gold.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    What the ....?

    You want gold, not numbers on a screen, one day your Dollars will plummit, and whoever got the gold will end up beeing extremely rich.


    Just look at the banks, it's all funny money, and it's fun while it lasts, but in the end, nothing is valuable like good old gold.
    Gold is no different than any other raw material. Gold as a currency is just as vulnerable to crashing.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  14. #274
    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sledfang View Post
    Physical money represents value in gold equivalent to spot price plus any premium margins. When you cant trade it in for a pre-specified amount according to the physical money, then its not backed by gold.
    This is simply not true. Dollar Bills and other paper currencies around the world are not backed up by gold at all. Dollars represent only themselves and the confidence people have that they hold a value.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 05:20 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    Gold is no different than any other raw material. Gold as a currency is just as vulnerable to crashing.
    Yeah, I'm expecting a huge gold crash here in the next few years. If anything, Gold is MORE prone to booms and busts than fiat currency. Hell, just look at the value of Gold through the 80s.

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