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  1. #1

    Curious Profession Sims

    Can't post links apparently, but you can find my Character Jellybottom on Hellfire-EU

    As you can see I'm a herbalist/alchemist and was planning to change to tailor for an assumed dps increase. Curiously enough when I ran simulations using simulationcraft herbalism came out ahead. If possible I'd want a second opinion on this, maybe someone can find an error that I made?

    To make the sims I just did a normal one on my armory 25000iterations.

    To test tailoring I switched out professions at the top, removed the lifeblood action and added the lightweave 3 enchant.

    If anyone has current sim information of the best professions or can take a look at this i'd be happy!

    Thanks in advance

    Jelly

  2. #2
    The Patient Reolac's Avatar
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    I'm curious, can you link your code?

    I believe Engineering/Lightweave are currently the best professions.

  3. #3
    Since I can't post links I had to edit out the origin, thumbnails and talent lines in the beginning. Hope it doesn't matter.

    Not sure how I can make this less terrible to look at, but here you go:

    Code for normal sim with alch/herb:
    #!./simc

    warlock="Jellybottom"
    origin=""
    thumbnail=""
    level=90
    race=orc
    spec=affliction
    role=spell
    position=back
    professions=alchemy=600/herbalism=600
    talents=
    glyphs=soul_shards/siphon_life/healthstone/verdant_spheres/crimson_banish/nightmares

    # This default action priority list is automatically created based on your character.
    # It is a attempt to provide you with a action list that is both simple and practicable,
    # while resulting in a meaningful and good simulation. It may not result in the absolutely highest possible dps.
    # Feel free to edit, adapt and improve it to your own needs.
    # SimulationCraft is always looking for updates and improvements to the default action lists.

    actions.precombat=flask,type=warm_sun
    actions.precombat+=/food,type=mogu_fish_stew
    actions.precombat+=/dark_intent,if=!aura.spell_power_multiplier.up
    actions.precombat+=/summon_pet
    actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
    actions.precombat+=/jade_serpent_potion

    actions=curse_of_the_elements,if=debuff.magic_vulnerability.down
    actions+=/jade_serpent_potion,if=buff.bloodlust.react|target.health.pct<=20
    actions+=/lifeblood
    actions+=/blood_fury
    actions+=/dark_soul
    actions+=/service_pet,if=talent.grimoire_of_service.enabled
    actions+=/grimoire_of_sacrifice,if=talent.grimoire_of_sacrifice.enabled
    actions+=/summon_pet,if=talent.grimoire_of_sacrifice.enabled&buff.grimoire_of_sacrifice.down
    actions+=/run_action_list,name=aoe,if=active_enemies>3
    actions+=/summon_doomguard
    actions+=/soul_swap,if=buff.soulburn.up
    actions+=/haunt,if=!in_flight_to_target&remains<tick_time+travel_time+cast_time&shard_react&miss_rea ct
    actions+=/soul_swap,cycle_targets=1,if=active_enemies>1&time<10&glyph.soul_swap.enabled
    actions+=/haunt,cycle_targets=1,if=!in_flight_to_target&remains<tick_time+travel_time+cast_time&soul _shard>1&miss_react
    actions+=/soulburn,line_cd=20,if=buff.dark_soul.up&shard_react
    actions+=/soulburn,if=(dot.unstable_affliction.ticks_remain<action.unstable_affliction.add_ticks%2|d ot.corruption.ticks_remain<action.corruption.add_ticks%2|dot.agony.ticks_remain<action.ago ny.add_ticks%2)&target.health.pct<=20&shard_react
    actions+=/agony,cycle_targets=1,if=ticks_remain<add_ticks%2&target.time_to_die>=8&miss_react
    actions+=/corruption,cycle_targets=1,if=ticks_remain<add_ticks%2&target.time_to_die>=6&miss_react
    actions+=/unstable_affliction,cycle_targets=1,if=ticks_remain<add_ticks%2+1&target.time_to_die>=5&mi ss_react
    actions+=/drain_soul,interrupt=1,chain=1,if=target.health.pct<=20
    actions+=/life_tap,if=mana.pct<35
    actions+=/malefic_grasp,chain=1
    actions+=/life_tap,moving=1,if=mana.pct<80&mana.pct<target.health.pct
    actions+=/fel_flame,moving=1
    actions+=/life_tap

    actions.aoe=summon_doomguard,if=active_enemies<7
    actions.aoe+=/summon_infernal,if=active_enemies>=7
    actions.aoe+=/soulburn,cycle_targets=1,if=buff.soulburn.down&!dot.soulburn_seed_of_corruption.ticking&!a ction.soulburn_seed_of_corruption.in_flight_to_target&shard_react
    actions.aoe+=/soul_swap,if=buff.soulburn.up&!dot.agony.ticking&!dot.corruption.ticking
    actions.aoe+=/soul_swap,cycle_targets=1,if=buff.soulburn.up&dot.corruption.ticking&!dot.agony.ticking
    actions.aoe+=/seed_of_corruption,cycle_targets=1,if=(buff.soulburn.down&!in_flight_to_target&!ticking)|( buff.soulburn.up&!dot.soulburn_seed_of_corruption.ticking&!action.soulburn_seed_of_corrupt ion.in_flight_to_target)
    actions.aoe+=/haunt,cycle_targets=1,if=!in_flight_to_target&debuff.haunt.remains<cast_time+travel_time&s hard_react
    actions.aoe+=/life_tap,if=mana.pct<70
    actions.aoe+=/fel_flame,cycle_targets=1,if=!in_flight_to_target

    head=xarils_hood_of_intoxicating_vapors,id=86181,gems=burning_primal_80int_160mastery_180m astery,reforge=haste_hit
    neck=amulet_of_seven_curses,id=87028,reforge=crit_mastery
    shoulders=shaskin_mantle,id=85373,gems=80int_160hit_60int,enchant=200int_100crit
    back=cloak_of_snow_blossoms,id=89077,enchant=180int
    chest=shaskin_robes,id=85372,gems=320mastery_320mastery_180haste,enchant=80all,reforge=cri t_mastery
    shirt=tuxedo_shirt,id=10034
    wrists=twisting_wind_bracers,id=86170,enchant=180int,reforge=haste_mastery
    hands=shaskin_gloves,id=85369,enchant=170mastery,reforge=haste_mastery
    waist=belt_of_malleable_amber,id=86210,gems=320mastery_80int_160hit_320mastery_120haste,re forge=hit_mastery
    legs=shaskin_leggings,id=85371,gems=80int_160mastery_60int,enchant=285int_165crit,reforge= haste_hit
    feet=sandals_of_the_unbidden,id=86178,gems=320mastery_60hit,enchant=140mastery,reforge=hit _haste
    finger1=seal_of_the_lucid,id=90859
    finger2=simple_harmonius_ring,id=89072,reforge=hit_mastery
    trinket1=relic_of_yulon,id=79331
    trinket2=light_of_the_cosmos,id=86133,reforge=haste_mastery
    main_hand=loshan_terror_incarnate,id=86328,gems=500int,enchant=jade_spirit,reforge=crit_ma stery
    off_hand=tornadosummoning_censer,id=86171,enchant=165int,reforge=crit_mastery

    # Gear Summary
    # gear_strength=80
    # gear_agility=80
    # gear_stamina=18025
    # gear_intellect=14433
    # gear_spirit=80
    # gear_spell_power=7548
    # gear_hit_rating=5113
    # gear_crit_rating=1543
    # gear_haste_rating=4732
    # gear_mastery_rating=8019
    # gear_armor=14283
    # meta_gem=burning_primal
    # tier14_2pc_caster=1
    # tier14_4pc_caster=1
    # main_hand=loshan_terror_incarnate,weapon=sword_2.20speed_2749min_5106max,enchant=jade_spir it
    default_pet=felhunter



    Code for Alch/tailoring:

    #!./simc

    warlock="Jellybottom"
    origin=""
    thumbnail=""
    level=90
    race=orc
    spec=affliction
    role=spell
    position=back
    professions=alchemy=600/tailoring=600
    talents=
    glyphs=soul_shards/siphon_life/healthstone/verdant_spheres/crimson_banish/nightmares

    # This default action priority list is automatically created based on your character.
    # It is a attempt to provide you with a action list that is both simple and practicable,
    # while resulting in a meaningful and good simulation. It may not result in the absolutely highest possible dps.
    # Feel free to edit, adapt and improve it to your own needs.
    # SimulationCraft is always looking for updates and improvements to the default action lists.

    actions.precombat=flask,type=warm_sun
    actions.precombat+=/food,type=mogu_fish_stew
    actions.precombat+=/dark_intent,if=!aura.spell_power_multiplier.up
    actions.precombat+=/summon_pet
    actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
    actions.precombat+=/jade_serpent_potion

    actions=curse_of_the_elements,if=debuff.magic_vulnerability.down
    actions+=/jade_serpent_potion,if=buff.bloodlust.react|target.health.pct<=20
    actions+=/blood_fury
    actions+=/dark_soul
    actions+=/service_pet,if=talent.grimoire_of_service.enabled
    actions+=/grimoire_of_sacrifice,if=talent.grimoire_of_sacrifice.enabled
    actions+=/summon_pet,if=talent.grimoire_of_sacrifice.enabled&buff.grimoire_of_sacrifice.down
    actions+=/run_action_list,name=aoe,if=active_enemies>3
    actions+=/summon_doomguard
    actions+=/soul_swap,if=buff.soulburn.up
    actions+=/haunt,if=!in_flight_to_target&remains<tick_time+travel_time+cast_time&shard_react&miss_rea ct
    actions+=/soul_swap,cycle_targets=1,if=active_enemies>1&time<10&glyph.soul_swap.enabled
    actions+=/haunt,cycle_targets=1,if=!in_flight_to_target&remains<tick_time+travel_time+cast_time&soul _shard>1&miss_react
    actions+=/soulburn,line_cd=20,if=buff.dark_soul.up&shard_react
    actions+=/soulburn,if=(dot.unstable_affliction.ticks_remain<action.unstable_affliction.add_ticks%2|d ot.corruption.ticks_remain<action.corruption.add_ticks%2|dot.agony.ticks_remain<action.ago ny.add_ticks%2)&target.health.pct<=20&shard_react
    actions+=/agony,cycle_targets=1,if=ticks_remain<add_ticks%2&target.time_to_die>=8&miss_react
    actions+=/corruption,cycle_targets=1,if=ticks_remain<add_ticks%2&target.time_to_die>=6&miss_react
    actions+=/unstable_affliction,cycle_targets=1,if=ticks_remain<add_ticks%2+1&target.time_to_die>=5&mi ss_react
    actions+=/drain_soul,interrupt=1,chain=1,if=target.health.pct<=20
    actions+=/life_tap,if=mana.pct<35
    actions+=/malefic_grasp,chain=1
    actions+=/life_tap,moving=1,if=mana.pct<80&mana.pct<target.health.pct
    actions+=/fel_flame,moving=1
    actions+=/life_tap

    actions.aoe=summon_doomguard,if=active_enemies<7
    actions.aoe+=/summon_infernal,if=active_enemies>=7
    actions.aoe+=/soulburn,cycle_targets=1,if=buff.soulburn.down&!dot.soulburn_seed_of_corruption.ticking&!a ction.soulburn_seed_of_corruption.in_flight_to_target&shard_react
    actions.aoe+=/soul_swap,if=buff.soulburn.up&!dot.agony.ticking&!dot.corruption.ticking
    actions.aoe+=/soul_swap,cycle_targets=1,if=buff.soulburn.up&dot.corruption.ticking&!dot.agony.ticking
    actions.aoe+=/seed_of_corruption,cycle_targets=1,if=(buff.soulburn.down&!in_flight_to_target&!ticking)|( buff.soulburn.up&!dot.soulburn_seed_of_corruption.ticking&!action.soulburn_seed_of_corrupt ion.in_flight_to_target)
    actions.aoe+=/haunt,cycle_targets=1,if=!in_flight_to_target&debuff.haunt.remains<cast_time+travel_time&s hard_react
    actions.aoe+=/life_tap,if=mana.pct<70
    actions.aoe+=/fel_flame,cycle_targets=1,if=!in_flight_to_target

    head=xarils_hood_of_intoxicating_vapors,id=86181,gems=burning_primal_80int_160mastery_180m astery,reforge=haste_hit
    neck=amulet_of_seven_curses,id=87028,reforge=crit_mastery
    shoulders=shaskin_mantle,id=85373,gems=80int_160hit_60int,enchant=200int_100crit
    back=cloak_of_snow_blossoms,id=89077,enchant=lightweave_embroidery_3
    chest=shaskin_robes,id=85372,gems=320mastery_320mastery_180haste,enchant=80all,reforge=cri t_mastery
    shirt=tuxedo_shirt,id=10034
    wrists=twisting_wind_bracers,id=86170,enchant=180int,reforge=haste_mastery
    hands=shaskin_gloves,id=85369,enchant=170mastery,reforge=haste_mastery
    waist=belt_of_malleable_amber,id=86210,gems=320mastery_80int_160hit_320mastery_120haste,re forge=hit_mastery
    legs=shaskin_leggings,id=85371,gems=80int_160mastery_60int,enchant=285int_165crit,reforge= haste_hit
    feet=sandals_of_the_unbidden,id=86178,gems=320mastery_60hit,enchant=140mastery,reforge=hit _haste
    finger1=seal_of_the_lucid,id=90859
    finger2=simple_harmonius_ring,id=89072,reforge=hit_mastery
    trinket1=relic_of_yulon,id=79331
    trinket2=light_of_the_cosmos,id=86133,reforge=haste_mastery
    main_hand=loshan_terror_incarnate,id=86328,gems=500int,enchant=jade_spirit,reforge=crit_ma stery
    off_hand=tornadosummoning_censer,id=86171,enchant=165int,reforge=crit_mastery

    # Gear Summary
    # gear_strength=80
    # gear_agility=80
    # gear_stamina=18025
    # gear_intellect=14433
    # gear_spirit=80
    # gear_spell_power=7548
    # gear_hit_rating=5113
    # gear_crit_rating=1543
    # gear_haste_rating=4732
    # gear_mastery_rating=8019
    # gear_armor=14283
    # meta_gem=burning_primal
    # tier14_2pc_caster=1
    # tier14_4pc_caster=1
    # main_hand=loshan_terror_incarnate,weapon=sword_2.20speed_2749min_5106max,enchant=jade_spir it
    default_pet=felhunter

  4. #4
    Check your uptimes in your results. If you don't see lightweave, then it didn't work and the results are wrong.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Check your uptimes in your results. If you don't see lightweave, then it didn't work and the results are wrong.
    hehe of course I see uptime, so the sim is getting the lightweave buff.
    lightweave_embroidery_3 8.2 0.0 58.4sec 58.4sec 26.78% 26.78%

  6. #6
    What exactly did you get for results?

  7. #7
    Herbalism is ever so slightly better than Tailoring for me too. Not too surprising, that's a lot of haste.
    http://wowupgrade.com/ - instant gear comparison for all classes / specs

  8. #8
    Mechagnome -Raer-'s Avatar
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    It'll be something to do with the haste pushing you to a breakpoint. Swap to a haste heavy build and see that it will probably lose it's value.

  9. #9
    High Overlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leyowin View Post
    It'll be something to do with the haste pushing you to a breakpoint. Swap to a haste heavy build and see that it will probably lose it's value.
    Thay might be true. Please confirm your haste value, if like it seems it is 4732, then there is no breakpoint in sight.

    My guts tell me it has to do with something very special (and false) going on with simulationcraft and haste for affliction. I have posted on the main affliction thread about it and did not get any other opinion yet, but I wouldn't trust simcraft about that results, really, until we can sort things out.
    Last edited by Surutcra; 2012-12-24 at 10:43 AM. Reason: typo

  10. #10
    I don't see why you guys are so surprised/disbelieving. It's 2880 haste for 20 seconds every 2 minutes, that's 480 haste on average, plus you get to use the 180 int cloak enchant. In comparison, lightweave is 2000 intellect for 15 seconds every minute, so that's 500 intellect on average if it procs right away, which it won't. So more like 465-475 intellect on average.

    I don't think it's too unreasonable that 180 int + 480 haste can be better than 470ish int, especially when you consider the fact that bigger procs on longer cooldowns tend to sim better than smaller procs on shorter cooldowns due to massive proc stacking at the start of the fight. Obviously which one wins out will depend on your exact gear setup and which encounter you're going up against, but they should be pretty close in all cases.
    http://wowupgrade.com/ - instant gear comparison for all classes / specs

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Gobuchul View Post
    I don't see why you guys are so surprised/disbelieving. It's 2880 haste for 20 seconds every 2 minutes, that's 480 haste on average, plus you get to use the 180 int cloak enchant. In comparison, lightweave is 2000 intellect for 15 seconds every minute, so that's 500 intellect on average if it procs right away, which it won't. So more like 465-475 intellect on average.

    I don't think it's too unreasonable that 180 int + 480 haste can be better than 470ish int, especially when you consider the fact that bigger procs on longer cooldowns tend to sim better than smaller procs on shorter cooldowns due to massive proc stacking at the start of the fight. Obviously which one wins out will depend on your exact gear setup and which encounter you're going up against, but they should be pretty close in all cases.


    By your logic, Int and Haste have similar stat weights. They don't. Int more than doubles Haste.

    You're probably hitting some obscure cap that you wouldn't be hitting it you were right at the proper cap with your gear.

  12. #12
    High Overlord
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    Tailoring cloak enchant will provide, on average, the same amount as other professions (320 intellect). 480 average haste being equivalent to that means 1 haste = 0.67 intell, which I strongly doubt, but which is unexpectedly close to recent simcraft outputs. I stand by my previous advice (i.e. simcraft is wrong to put herbalism ahead of other "320 intell" professions, and I believe the reason for that is not reaching a specific haste cap).

  13. #13
    Okay so i was a bit busy during christmas but decided to try and persue this a bit more. This is what my sims say (if we assume that simcraft handles the extra haste from herbalism correctly, which I'm still doubting).

    Assume simmed dps for static 320int/320int profession = 0
    Using my armory as the base this gives us the follow values for each profession combination:
    Tailoring/Herbalism = +1106dps
    320int/Herbalism = +706dps
    320int/Tailoring = +289dps
    Engineering/Tailoring = +204dps
    320int/320int = 0
    320int/Engineering = -83dps

    This sounds really wierd and the sim gives an insane value for herbalism at +706dps compared to a normal 320int profession.

    Same comparison but with the t14heroic gear (simulationcrafts BiS):
    Tailoring/Herbalism = +1111dps
    Engineering/Tailoring = +971dps
    Engineering/Herbalism = +968dps
    320int/Herbalism = +546dps
    320int/Engineering = +476dps
    320int/Tailoring = +469dps
    320int/320int = 0

    Atleast the value of herbalism seems to drop with better gear, but it's still higher than any other single profession.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by renchak View Post
    Okay so i was a bit busy during christmas but decided to try and persue this a bit more. This is what my sims say (if we assume that simcraft handles the extra haste from herbalism correctly, which I'm still doubting).

    Assume simmed dps for static 320int/320int profession = 0
    Using my armory as the base this gives us the follow values for each profession combination:
    Tailoring/Herbalism = +1106dps
    320int/Herbalism = +706dps
    320int/Tailoring = +289dps
    Engineering/Tailoring = +204dps
    320int/320int = 0
    320int/Engineering = -83dps

    This sounds really wierd and the sim gives an insane value for herbalism at +706dps compared to a normal 320int profession.

    Same comparison but with the t14heroic gear (simulationcrafts BiS):
    Tailoring/Herbalism = +1111dps
    Engineering/Tailoring = +971dps
    Engineering/Herbalism = +968dps
    320int/Herbalism = +546dps
    320int/Engineering = +476dps
    320int/Tailoring = +469dps
    320int/320int = 0

    Atleast the value of herbalism seems to drop with better gear, but it's still higher than any other single profession.
    Something doesn't look right. Granted, I'm not a math guy, but tailoring and herbalism gives you 900 more dps than tail/engi with your current gear? This seems way off unless I'm completely missing something.
    Perfect example of why "community" forums are poisonous to the health of a development team. These developers are wasting hundreds of hours trying to stem the tide of incessant bitchery that would never, ever abate so long as these entitled, unfortunate human beings don't get their way.

  15. #15
    This needs to be reported as a bug to Simcraft. Its a very obvious bug that needs to be fixed on their end.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    This needs to be reported as a bug to Simcraft. Its a very obvious bug that needs to be fixed on their end.
    Before reporting such things, you should gather a bit more "evidence" than just A should do more dps than B because of X.

    - Buffs in the html report can be expanded, where stat buffs will show you the stat and value they are using.
    Eg. lightweave embroidery should show 2000 int there, and lifeblood can be found as well.
    - The stats section allows you to easily compare "static" stat differences. An easy way to double-check if the profession adds the promised values.
    - If you report dps numbers ( both here on mmoc and on the simc project page), please always add rough error numbers which get reported alongside the dps number. Without it we can't know if there's a statistically significant difference or not.

  17. #17
    High Overlord
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    If I can find the time I'll try and gather some strong evidence. From what I've seen that far, the issue lies with haste. If anyone else has the time to check it out I believe additional ticks with haste are somehow buggy (see http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post19535020). That's probably a symptom of the real problem, but a good place to start looking still.

  18. #18
    There's absolutely no evidence of any bug here - temporary buffs just aren't as easily comparable to each other as passive stats are. As mentioned earlier, the big thing that tends to skew things is the period of time during the start of the fight where all procs are up at once, along with bloodlust, stormlash, etc. Having a big haste buff up during the first 20 seconds of a fight is huge.

    Also, if I had to guess (and I do have to, since you haven't linked your armory), you have two intellect-proc trinkets. This means you have a ton of intellect during that first part of the fight, diminishing the effect of the lightweave proc. That would explain the difference in the results between yourself and the "BiS" profile, since that profile uses a haste proc trinket.
    http://wowupgrade.com/ - instant gear comparison for all classes / specs

  19. #19
    Finally found some time to check this out myself. As others have pointed out, the math here is pretty simple: Herbalisms Lifeblood maths out to 480 Haste, while Lightweave and Synapse Springs both math out to 320 Int. If Int is worth more than 1.5 times Haste, Lifebloom should be worse, if not, Herbalism is an option. However, Warlocks scale funky with Haste this Addon. Considering our many Haste breakpoints (with 3 DoTs and 3 different Haste-Sets), those 2880 Haste from Lifebloom will get you over some of those breakpoints almost guaranteed, so from a purely mathematically standpoint there really is no easy answer.

    Now, first lets take a look at the individual professions (note all simulations were done using my main Warlock):

    The default behaviour of the simulated Engineer is to use Synapse Springs as soon as it is ready, my "tweak" is to only use it when DS is ready. I ran all other simulations with the tweaked engineer as it proved to be better. The baseline simulation is without any professions, the alchemy simulation is representing all the professions that give a plain 320 Int. However, this ignores the interaction of the procs with eachother, so I decided to run a second simulation with pairs of professions rather than single ones:

    While this chart does show Engineering/Herbalism at the top, notice how close all the profession pairs are: The first two are within 20 DPS (which is basically equal considering the error), the first four are within 400 DPS (which is about 0.25%) and all of them are within 1 000 DPS (which is still less than 0.8%). After considering what Gobuchul wrote about the two Int proc trinkets I figured I would test that as well, so I swapped out my Essence of Terror for a fully upgraded Relic of Yu'lon and ran the simulation again:

    Pretty much the same picture as for EoT. My guess would be that, the original Poste had less Haste than I do and so had more important breakpoints that got covered by it.

    All in all, Herbalism is at the same level as the traditional raiding professions. If a sub 1% increase in DPS is worth the switch to Herbalism is another problem entirely.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by SirFlipper View Post
    Finally found some time to check this out myself.

    < SNIP >
    Nice, I was wondering if there was anything major going on with this, but seems it's all within decent margins. Even if this is simmed with much better gear then mine it's good to know that the eventual point will not make much difference. Thanks for doing the work on this.
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