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  1. #81
    Stood in the Fire S Blieft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    It's about the time commitment and control of their own time.

    You can't effectively guild or raid lead if your time isn't your own. "Baby aggro" and "wife aggro" and all the other aggros will eventually tear a guild down for adults, and mom and dad orders will do the same with kids.

    People have to realize there's other players in the game who joined a guild for reasons the guild was for. If it's for raiding that's raiding without constant interruptions. No one wants to waste their time when the leaders can't get their own house in order, forget trying to lead another "house".
    I just had to add... in the 2years we've been raiding as a group, he's not missed a single raid except for the
    week that his PC bluescreened, you can't tell me that an interruption like that is simply because he's a teen.

    My whole point was, it's situational. You can't just lump all teens together in one basket, it's kinda close-minded imo.
    There is always an exception to the rule. Always.
    Last edited by S Blieft; 2012-12-23 at 07:01 PM.
    And eight, eight, I forget what eight was for

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by bigfootbigd View Post
    True for some people, but not everyone. Shouldn't treat everyone like that until you know their history.
    No. It doesn't matter how much you want it to not apply to you. I'm not saying this because of any social norms; I'm stating a biological fact.
    Intelligence and experience do not equal maturity, though they may resemble it. The same pit-traps still apply.

  3. #83
    You can't effectively guild or raid lead if your time isn't your own. "Baby aggro" and "wife aggro" and all the other aggros will eventually tear a guild down for adults, and mom and dad orders will do the same with kids.
    This is the only thing that matters imo: Are you in control your own time? Basically, will your parents pull your internet connection at times when they get pissed off or it gets late.

    The entire maturity discussion is complete bullshit. I have seen 15 year olds be more mature than 35 year olds, and play better than 25 year olds. This will show with time. If you are not fit to lead a guild, it will collapse, if you are, it MIGHT work out (luck and recruitment plays a huge role aswell, not just your personal ability as a leader)

    I agree. Far to often, children, teenagers and even young adults make decisions based on the short term, rather then the long term. Every guild I've ever known to be run by a Teenager has collapsed due to some immature bullshit within 3 months.

    I don't mean to put you off, you may be totally different, but I can only speak from experience, and my experience says don't bother.
    Exactly the same can be said about older players, argument invalid.
    They're (short for They are) describes a group of people. "They're/They are a nice bunch of guys." Their indicates that something belongs/is related to a group of people. "Their car was all out of fuel." There refers to a location. "Let's set up camp over there." There is also no such thing as "could/should OF". The correct way is: Could/should'VE, or could/should HAVE.
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  4. #84
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S Blieft View Post
    I just had to add... in the 2years we've been raiding as a group, he's not missed a single raid except for the
    week that his PC bluescreened, you can't tell me that an interruption like that is simply because he's a teen.

    My whole point was, it's situational. You can't just lump all teens together in one basket, it's kinda close-minded imo.
    There is always an exception to the rule. Always.
    Exception to the rule doesn't mean it's common.
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
    Blizzard's blame game in action: Deleting 6,100+ of Kevyne's posts and threads from the WoW forums.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    Exception to the rule doesn't mean it's common.
    Or impossible.

    To OP: Go for it, if you fail then you're not the first one so no biggie.

  6. #86
    My daughter is 16, and she is our guild master and raid leader And we're top 7 on our realm in progress.

  7. #87
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    No. It doesn't matter how much you want it to not apply to you. I'm not saying this because of any social norms; I'm stating a biological fact.
    Intelligence and experience do not equal maturity, though they may resemble it. The same pit-traps still apply.
    Can't use biology as an end-all in this matter. Some kids are very mature at younger ages, but you can tell they are younger by how they act among peers. Once separated they can be more mature if they don't want to be singled out (they're at the age that peer acceptance is what matters).

    But the factor is is two-fold: time commitment and wisdom to know the difference. The latter is hard to get without experience.

    Why it keeps coming back to +18. Exceptions are not what's common.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-23 at 03:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Brytryne View Post
    Or impossible.

    To OP: Go for it, if you fail then you're not the first one so no biggie.
    Irresponsible behavior (letting others down because of some social experiment) is a biggie for those affected by it.
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
    Blizzard's blame game in action: Deleting 6,100+ of Kevyne's posts and threads from the WoW forums.

  8. #88
    The Lightbringer Uennie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    Just ignore anyone saying don't do it because of your age or highschool. I raided successfully five days a week while in school 9:30-12:30 eastern. Kept up with school went out on the weekends and had plenty of spare time to do whatever I wanted. Age has almost nothing to do with raiding or WoW. I've seen people over 30 act less mature than people who were 15 in the raids. It changes person to person regardless of age. That being said I'm 22 now and raid less than I did then but knowing where I came from would never allow me to turn someone down because of their age.
    You raided, you didn't lead a guild. Leading a guild can get really overwhelming really quickly. Unless you let everyone do whatever they want (which will cause an implosion much more quickly), you need to be capable of leading. Given age and real life obligations, it's just not worth the risk. You can't just blow off the guild if you're leading it, you'll need to have people to pick up the slack for you (delegation), and if you do it enough people might not even see you as the guild leader anymore. You'll have a mutiny on your hands.

    Be in a raid, don't lead a guild. Failure means you will disappoint many people, can you deal with that? Can you deal with that reputation following you on the server? Warcraft feeds off gossip, and being a terrible guild leader is a quick way to get really well-known, really quickly.

    A lot of people are going on and on about maturity, great, so the kid might be mature. Can he guarantee that his parents will be as understanding? The bonus to being an adult running a guild is that you make your own rules about your life, you don't have to worry about making a bad grade and finding yourself game-less for several months. There are more factors in play aside from just age and maturity. There's the obvious dependence upon adults for the success of the guild. Frankly? It'll be a 50/50 effort. The first half is your commitment to the guild and real life, the second half is getting your parents to help you commit instead of making you go on that family vacation to the grand canyon. There's a bunch of nice kids in my guild but their parents actively pull the plug on their net at night at the same time. No negotiation, no trying to talk about it.

    Anything a kid does, is pretty much because his parents allow it to happen, at least when it comes to something like this. Parents have a shitload of control over youths, and that's actually a good thing.
    Last edited by Uennie; 2012-12-23 at 08:19 PM.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Assumi View Post
    Did mom shelter you or something? I had just as much control over my non-school time as a teenager as I do now with my non-work time as an adult.
    The issue is specific to each person. I've run with teens who were fine. I've run with teens who suddenly have to log because their parents told them to for some reason. The difference is that as an adult who's on his or her own, you won't have that. No one is going to come into your room and tell you to log RIGHT NOW OR ELSE.

    If OP's parents are fine with his playtime and he (or she, dunno) is getting school stuff done (DO NOT let your grades slip due to WoW), then sure you can do this. It's a lot more work than you might think though.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    Irresponsible behavior (letting others down because of some social experiment) is a biggie for those affected by it.
    Fairly sure they will realise if the guild lives up to the standard the guild/raidmasters present it as relatively early. It doesn't have to be a top100 guild.
    Also WoW isn't srs bznz, if anything it's a perfect arena for social experiments.

  11. #91
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brytryne View Post
    Fairly sure they will realise if the guild lives up to the standard the guild/raidmasters present it as relatively early. It doesn't have to be a top100 guild.
    Also WoW isn't srs bznz, if anything it's a perfect arena for social experiments.
    What's serious is time. Once it's lost can't bring it back. Which is why not to encourage <18 guild/raid leaders...their time isn't their own. Encouraging otherwise is wasting players time and gaming experience (especially with more guild dramas, like the guild/raid leader is grounded for failing World History 101).
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
    Blizzard's blame game in action: Deleting 6,100+ of Kevyne's posts and threads from the WoW forums.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    What's serious is time. Once it's lost can't bring it back. Which is why not to encourage <18 guild/raid leaders...their time isn't their own. Encouraging otherwise is wasting players time and gaming experience (especially with more guild dramas, like the guild/raid leader is grounded for failing World History 101).
    Indeed, time is important. Please don't tell people how to spend theirs.

  13. #93
    The Lightbringer Uennie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brytryne View Post
    Indeed, time is important. Please don't tell people how to spend theirs.
    I don't know what you're doing right now, you seem to just be attempting to make smart remarks without making any valid statements. What you have just said goes directly against you telling people not to take WoW so seriously. You're telling people how to play. Just because you play a certain way doesn't mean it applies to everyone - HOWEVER - to use that in a condescending manner instead of acknowledging the many different (and stated) scenarios and concerns which can come into play borders on arrogance. Kevyne never said your view was incorrect, but he did open up discussion for defense and response as you do in proper discussions. If you're not down for that I don't see a point in acknowledging you further than this post.

    TL;DR? Don't tell people how to spend theirs if you can't handle being told.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Uennie View Post
    I don't know what you're doing right now, you seem to just be attempting to make smart remarks without making any valid statements. What you have just said goes directly against you telling people not to take WoW so seriously. You're telling people how to play. Just because you play a certain way doesn't mean it applies to everyone - HOWEVER - to use that in a condescending manner instead of acknowledging the many different (and stated) scenarios and concerns which can come into play borders on arrogance. Kevyne never said your view was incorrect, but he did open up discussion for defense and response as you do in proper discussions. If you're not down for that I don't see a point in acknowledging you further than this post.

    TL;DR? Don't tell people how to spend theirs if you can't handle being told.
    I'm just asking him not to discourage this dude from leading a raid group. There is no harm to it. But ok I'll bite.
    If he manages to get a group of people together for some raiding funtime, which shouldn't be impossible since it has been done literally thousands of times before, it is fairly certain that there will be a skill difference between the players in the beginning, some people will leave and after a while assuming he doesn't give up, he learns from mistakes and adapts and he will have 10 or 25 people with the same goal in mind. Before or during this process he will familiarize himself with the concept of leading a raid. And from there they will progress. And if it fails? Big fucking deal, it happens all the time.

  15. #95
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brytryne View Post
    Indeed, time is important. Please don't tell people how to spend theirs.
    Then appreciate not wasting time of others who will have to deal with absent guild/raid leaders due to them being grounded or worse (like mom and dad closing their WoW account).

    A guild isn't about MEMEME, it's about everyone involved. The raid teams need their raid leaders, and if they're not around it's down trying to find another, and that wastes 10+ other players now playing pickup. A guild without a leader is also rudderless, and it too has to play pickup with all the upheaval of changing officers and more.

    It's simply irresponsible. If folks can't see that now, it shows that wisdom to lead is lacking, ego is more important.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-23 at 03:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Brytryne View Post
    I'm just asking him not to discourage this dude from leading a raid group.
    Check the thread title and OP's post: he wants to create a raid guild AND raid lead.
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
    Blizzard's blame game in action: Deleting 6,100+ of Kevyne's posts and threads from the WoW forums.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    Then appreciate not wasting time of others who will have to deal with absent guild/raid leaders due to them being grounded or worse (like mom and dad closing their WoW account).

    A guild isn't about MEMEME, it's about everyone involved. The raid teams need their raid leaders, and if they're not around it's down trying to find another, and that wastes 10+ other players now playing pickup. A guild without a leader is also rudderless, and it too has to play pickup with all the upheaval of changing officers and more.

    It's simply irresponsible. If folks can't see that now, it shows that wisdom to lead is lacking, ego is more important.
    Please direct me to where OP says he has to go afk every 5 minutes and has issues with his parents? Because I can't find it.

  17. #97
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brytryne View Post
    Please direct me to where OP says he has to go afk every 5 minutes and has issues with his parents? Because I can't find it.
    And please direct me he has total control of his time (because he won't, as he's under the control of his parent(s) until he's 18).
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
    Blizzard's blame game in action: Deleting 6,100+ of Kevyne's posts and threads from the WoW forums.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    And please direct me he has total control of his time (because he won't, as he's under the control of his parent(s) until he's 18).
    I don't need to do that at all. That's his responsibility to show his recruits. If he doesn't have time to be a raid leader then they will quickly notice and find another guild. And that is the natural course of things.

  19. #99
    Guys... you're both potentially right. The issue is that the OP needs to speak up and talk about how he does or does not control blocks of his time.

    In general though Kevyne is more right in that teens don't usually have control over their time and their parents can demand that they quit playing at any moment. While it's cute to argue "WoW isn't srs" the fact is that WoW is the video equivalent of recreational league sports... a raid is like a rec league sports team and the GM is like the team manager. Rec league teams aren't serious either... people are making a choice to invest their play time in YOUR team (guild/raid) and it's disrespectful to not be there. More importantly, if the guild falls apart then everyone has to find new guilds... all because of the GM not being able to effectively spend time leading the guild and being online for raids.


    A single adult can control their schedule usually, so they can make a commitment and others can't tell them "No, you're not raiding on Wednesday night!" Teens CAN be told that. Teens in general can't ensure that they will be there. OP? We don't know, but OP not replying here isn't really a good sign.
    If he doesn't have time to be a raid leader then they will quickly notice and find another guild. And that is the natural course of things.
    Sure, but if he doesn't have a reasonable chance to control his playtime and be there then there's no point to starting the guild. That's what he's asking about. His age isn't that important, it's the time issue. If he feels he will have the time and his parents aren't likely to override it then he should do it. If his parents do have a history of telling him he needs to get off WoW NOW then he shouldn't. Yes, the players will find other guilds, but starting something you don't think you can follow through on is disrespectful to the other people you're recruiting.
    Last edited by clevin; 2012-12-23 at 09:06 PM.

  20. #100
    even if you are 3 years old, AND can keep up with the leading and raiding, i see no problems what so ever
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