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  1. #21
    The Patient Vanchak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jobbly View Post
    I do not see why everyone says our multi-dotting capabilities are great and that is where we shine. Our dots do less damage than fire, boomkin or affliction. The only fights where we are competative(and we are very very good in those) are the ones where we can have a large uptime on Twist of Fate. It is not the spreading of dots around, it is the fact we do 10% less than other dps classes, and with ToF regularly up we are sweet. Take SG hc for example, 10 or 25man.
    The dps increase from multi dotting comes more from all the extra FDCL/DI procs we get, which also increases the amount of DP's we can pump out, it's not just from the dps of the dots.
    Last edited by Vanchak; 2012-12-24 at 01:02 AM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanchak View Post
    The dps increase from multi dotting comes more from all the extra FDCL/DI procs we get, which also increases the amount of DP's we can pump out, it's not just from the dps of the dots.
    You talk like no other spec has secondary benefits from multidotting (Haunt anyone?). Also, for the majority of those fights where we are multidotting, ToF is more beneficial than DI, so our orb generation is only increased from SW: D'ing dying adds. FDCL is not that great.
    Cheesing ToF uptime and SW: D to get extra orbs is the only way to be competitive (ie: Elegon). And even then, on a fight that is basically perfect for shadow priests - where we have many more orbs than normal, can multidot, and have 50-60% ToF uptime, we still aren't top.

    Another huge issue that isn't present in these logs is shadow's inability to be useful in any sort of burn phase. We have no dps burst cooldowns, and no mechanic that stacks nicely with any type of increased dmg/haste/whatever boss mechanic that my exist. Sustained dps is fine, but it'd be nice to be able to push out a little more during bloodlust. Think P3 heroic rag burn without DA, that'd be fun right?

    And those of you above linking raidbots - you are linking top 100. Pretty much all top 100 parses are artificially increased one way or another, be it by purposefully cheesing the meters in order to rank, or by just being insanely lucky with RNG (tons of DI procs, higher than avg crit, etc). Look at all parses for a better overall picture of what's going on. I think you'll find SP's dont fair nearly as well there.

    And lastly, shadow app's need a rework. They are completely useless on so many fights. If the target that proc'd them dies or goes untargetable, they will just hang around you for a while before eventually despawning. This PREVENTS more of them from spawning on subsequent sw: p crits as we can have only a maximum of 3 up at a time. There are so many times where I will have 3 shadowy app's just chilling next to me for a good 10 seconds doing absolutely nothing. It's pretty sweet.

    Oh and one more thing: "we bring utility"
    That is a terrible argument. Every class in the game brings utility. This is not vanilla anymore.

  3. #23
    Field Marshal pizz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meaks View Post
    You talk like no other spec has secondary benefits from multidotting (Haunt anyone?). Also, for the majority of those fights where we are multidotting, ToF is more beneficial than DI, so our orb generation is only increased from SW: D'ing dying adds. FDCL is not that great.
    Cheesing ToF uptime and SW: D to get extra orbs is the only way to be competitive (ie: Elegon). And even then, on a fight that is basically perfect for shadow priests - where we have many more orbs than normal, can multidot, and have 50-60% ToF uptime, we still aren't top.

    Another huge issue that isn't present in these logs is shadow's inability to be useful in any sort of burn phase. We have no dps burst cooldowns, and no mechanic that stacks nicely with any type of increased dmg/haste/whatever boss mechanic that my exist. Sustained dps is fine, but it'd be nice to be able to push out a little more during bloodlust. Think P3 heroic rag burn without DA, that'd be fun right?

    And those of you above linking raidbots - you are linking top 100. Pretty much all top 100 parses are artificially increased one way or another, be it by purposefully cheesing the meters in order to rank, or by just being insanely lucky with RNG (tons of DI procs, higher than avg crit, etc). Look at all parses for a better overall picture of what's going on. I think you'll find SP's dont fair nearly as well there.

    And lastly, shadow app's need a rework. They are completely useless on so many fights. If the target that proc'd them dies or goes untargetable, they will just hang around you for a while before eventually despawning. This PREVENTS more of them from spawning on subsequent sw: p crits as we can have only a maximum of 3 up at a time. There are so many times where I will have 3 shadowy app's just chilling next to me for a good 10 seconds doing absolutely nothing. It's pretty sweet.

    Oh and one more thing: "we bring utility"
    That is a terrible argument. Every class in the game brings utility. This is not vanilla anymore.

    I totally agree with you. But we all know, blizzard doesnt move quick. Couple of tiers will go by, or a new expansion, and GC will push out another talent pool, to fix the 'past problems'.

  4. #24
    Up until 5.1 I was far and away the top DPS in our guild on my Spriest. With 5.1 and Mage buffs, I have to REALLY work at it but our Mage got a 25K boost with whatever they did to that class. That being said, I'm still very happy with my single and multi target DPS.

    Most LFR (I know it's LOL-FR) I am almost always top damage on the parse even with people that tunnel vision. While I would never mind a boost in my DMG from buffs alone, I have to say that if you're having that much trouble with your DPS it may be something you're doing. Maybe it's something you can do like switching spell priority, reforging, or talents. Not knowing what you're character looks like, it's going to be hard to offer any suggestions.

    Link your Armory and the "rotation" you use. Essentially list the spell priority you use and maybe some nice Spriests can help you out. I put rotation in quotes because I don't use one and have never believed in it.

  5. #25
    I am Murloc! Volitar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Autofollow View Post
    Up until 5.1 I was far and away the top DPS in our guild on my Spriest. With 5.1 and Mage buffs, I have to REALLY work at it but our Mage got a 25K boost with whatever they did to that class. That being said, I'm still very happy with my single and multi target DPS.

    Most LFR (I know it's LOL-FR) I am almost always top damage on the parse even with people that tunnel vision. While I would never mind a boost in my DMG from buffs alone, I have to say that if you're having that much trouble with your DPS it may be something you're doing. Maybe it's something you can do like switching spell priority, reforging, or talents. Not knowing what you're character looks like, it's going to be hard to offer any suggestions.

    Link your Armory and the "rotation" you use. Essentially list the spell priority you use and maybe some nice Spriests can help you out. I put rotation in quotes because I don't use one and have never believed in it.
    No offence but citing your random guild where x player of y class does z dps means nothing to anyone.

  6. #26
    if you were beating mages *before* 5.1, your mages were terrible. fire pre 5.1 was even more retarded than affliction.

    honestly if you guys aren't getting demolished by your warlocks either you have *much* better gear than they, or your warlocks are just terrible. the only fights this tier where my ranked parses haven't dominated (15%+) by our warlocks have been on ambershaper, elegon and will of the emperor. their toolbox is just so much more broad, and their lust and prepot dps is so, so, so much higher than ours that there is no excuse for a warlock to lose to a spriest unless they have over 70% TOF uptime and are getting SWD orbs out the ass.

    another thing that pisses me off coming back to my priest after playing my alt lock is when you have DPS wars smashing adds from 20% to 0% before your SWD registers as usable. drain soul's resource regen mechanic is so much easier to use in groups/raids than SWD.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Ater View Post
    I'm not saying that spriest doesn't need a fix or two but you should not only look at simcraft, you should look at real logs to.

    Raidboots gives you the average dps from each class based on some of the best players in the World (getting there numbers from World of logs)
    Right now spirest got the fourth highest dps out of the eleven classes at 10-man heroic:
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/60/default/

    An they are 6 out of 11 at 25-man heroic:
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/30/default/

    Of course as with the simcrafts you shouldn't take does numbers as facts but they give a decent hint at the current state of the class and with 7 classes doing lower dps at 10-man heroic and 5 classes doing lower dps at 25-man heroic there are most likely other classes that are in bigger need of buffs then sprists (I'm not claiming that spriest are perfect or that they dosn't need any buffs just that there is other classes Blizzard should take a look at first).
    Next time you use these try not to use top 100 and use all parses instead. Top 100 majority are generally people abusing gimmicks to rank. Please use all parses.


    Now that I got you looking at ALL Parses

    10H- ranking at an awesome 9th!

    25H- ranking at an awesome 5th!.... FROM THE BOTTOM!

    Now lets start to look at 10H(since i do 10H mainly)
    And lets start at HoF since MSV heroic can easily be overgeared.

    Vizer- spriest extremely low. (not really sure why windwalkers are so low?) Ours absoultely crushes in dps.
    Blade Lord- this one 3rd from bottom. Take a priest and make them use SS. No other reason for one.
    Garalon- way down there.
    Wind Lord- 2nd from bottom
    Ambershaper!- middle of the pack(mainly from gaming ToF off adds to keep dps up.Thats how I do it) Yes by abusing mechanics we can reach middle of the pack. This is also skewed cause of the construct buff.
    Empress(no exp here)- middle of the pack.(I am assuming small data sets keep us high)

    Well there you have it. In HoF you can look forward to one fight where you excel!

    So if going by "bring the player not the class" Blizzard meant bring dps, and shadow for dispersion/Disc off spec then they nailed it.

    Priests arent in a good place in PvE. If ele shaman are getting buffed we should expect to see buffs. Hope for new notes after new year.

    If you say your doing amazing in dps most likely its cause your using mechanics to catch up..... does that seem like a fun way to play? Hope for fight mechanics so you can spend all your time fishing for ToF so you can keep up to the top classes?

    I don't mind being behind 2-3k but 10-20k is pretty shitty on single target fights.

    Also as people have stated the problem lies in the cooldown on Mindblast and our spells not scaling well with majority of secondary stats.
    Mastery needs to be reworked. Like most of us said in beta.... dots able to tick twice is dumb and terrible when your dots are quite weak and the only procs you can get off them are talents.


    ANYWAY:

    My proposed list for 5.2 and what i hope to see is this.

    Silence (glyph) - turns it into a 15 sec cooldown interrupt. (The fact I can't do shit on Epicus Maximus cause I can only interrupt one of his blue crush things is dumb)

    Mastery- Rework this(Maybe allow mastery to reduce the cooldown on mindblast slowly? (Not sure some math guys can find out where the best place to tweak numbers is.)

    Would like to see single target come up some so we can be competetive with other dps classes(being told to go disc cause my numbers just aren't where our afflic locks are sucks)

    I would like to see another use for orbs besides DP and PH. I feel there are so many more things we could do with them.
    Would also like to see Power Infusion stay for healers but maybe be Shadow Infusion(for shadow) cause we really need a cooldown not a shitty haste buff.[COLOR="red"]
    Last edited by Deathzero; 2012-12-24 at 07:11 PM.

  8. #28
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    Shadow really can't hold a candle in single target fights. I hope Blizzard addresses this, but I sincerely doubt it.

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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Hesp View Post
    Priests don't necessarily need to be brought up so much as warlocks need to be knocked down a peg. Every other ranged class is within an acceptable margin now that mages have taken a big hit. The only two things I expect to see at the end of the 5.2 ptr are a slight (think 10%) mf buff and SWI being completely reworked. Useless talents are getting axed/retooled across all classes and you can be sure SWI will see a change. Our single target could use a buff, yea, but shadow's biggest weakness this whole tier has been the fact that mages and locks have been godmode. The flip side is that if you normalized the damage across these classes, shadow becomes the de facto best caster with their added utility. Not that I advocate utility being good tradeoff for poor dps, but something has to give and I don't know that I'm any more keen on other classes getting Hymns or healing cd's. Just wait for the dps outliers to get their nerfs and shadow will appear much more attractive.
    This basically sums up my impression. MF could use a buff but balancing locks and to a smaller degree mages would solve this.

  10. #30
    Have you noticed, that every single class is 5.2 is being adjusted? That is with the exception of shadow priest. Maybe Blizz thinks we are just perfect....NOT. Our single target dmg is terrible - I completely agree with Deathzero's post above. I raid with in 10 man raid group (doing HM) along with mage, lock, warr, hunter and I struggle to catch up with them.

  11. #31
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by waikata View Post
    Have you noticed, that every single class is 5.2 is being adjusted? That is with the exception of shadow priest. Maybe Blizz thinks we are just perfect....NOT. Our single target dmg is terrible - I completely agree with Deathzero's post above. I raid with in 10 man raid group (doing HM) along with mage, lock, warr, hunter and I struggle to catch up with them.
    PTR isn't even out yet, the sky isn't falling.


    MMO Champ needs a Bitch and Complain forums for this kind of stuff.

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  12. #32
    Buffing MF is not going to fix our damage on movement heavy fights.
    Our multidot damage is crap compared to other dot specs; and some people already pointed, that our strength is in ToF, not multidot. Also in multidot fights a big part of our damage comes from FDCL procs and in 4+ target situation we are gcd capped, so the damage is almost the same for 4/5.. target fights. Buffing dots could be a bandaid fix: it would increase value of mastery and increase our damage in movement heavy fights a bit. Also if Mindspike, Mind blast and Mindbender damage scaled with mastery, it would help with scaling issues.
    A lot of people want MB cooldown to scale with haste, but imagine how hard it will be to fit MB or MS in 4+ target fight with fdcl during Bloodlust/Heroism or other haste procs. But ofcourse it's pretty stupid that we have to spend 25 seconds to build 3cp to use DP. There are a lot of ways to fix it, the easiest solution is to make dp a 2orb spell, so we can use it more often and let us to save up to 4 orbs instead of 3. It would make the rotation more flexible and would allow us to save orbs for trinket procs or burn phases.
    Anyway it seems like shadow follows the path of ret paladins, with rare and strong attack (DP as Templars verdict), strong and relatively rare procs (MS as Exorcism) and a very weak filler attack (mindflay as autoattack/judgement). And we know what happened to ret: the best way to fix their cluncky rotation was to give them 5cp system and let every attack to generate holy power.
    Shadow needs a massive overhaul, but I'm pretty sure it's not going to happen untill next expansion. In 5.2 Blizzard probably will buff MF (they like to buff MF because it doesn't affect pvp and multidot) and rework SW:I, or change to something useful instead.
    Last edited by Forsay; 2012-12-24 at 05:04 PM.

  13. #33
    it'd be good for it to be harder to fit mindblast into our rotation. we'd have to make the judgement call on whether we would get more out of more shadoworbs (single target) or spreading more dots/lvl90/mindsear. right now just about the only time it's worth delaying mindblast is if you're mindsearing large packs of adds and will still be able to snag 2-3 orbs by the time they're all dead and have to move on to a single target (like mindsearing ragers on will, or adds inbetween burn phases on meljarak).

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Atfirst View Post
    worst class in dps according to simulation craft (google simulationcraft)

    I play spriest as main, no matter what (singel target) fight, mages hunter warriors lock etc do 10-20k more dps

    gonna be hard to buff tho

    spriests are very strong in pvp

    I cant figure out anything how to buff PvE while not buffing PvP
    Well Simcraft is wrong for some points.

    Shadow PRiest is the best hybrid caster right now. They would frist need to massively buff elemental and a little less balance to justify this.

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...00000000000000

  15. #35
    if you take out elegon and will of the emperor, it paints a different picture. we're not complaining about spriest damage in every context, just in pure single target and to a lesser extent multidot council fights. on fights where you can keep up 60-70%+ uptime on twist of fate (and get the extra SWD shadoworbs), yes we are quite strong. elegon and will are probably the best examples of this - and elegon would be even more ridiculous if our shadow apparitions actually worked on heroic.

    honestly, elemental should have a significant reduction in the cooldown on their flameshock (at least for PVE) so they can do some amount of actual multidot (part of why their WOTE numbers are so awful), since their single target, clumped aoe, and burst is quite strong as-is, but this is about priests.

  16. #36
    I know it's only PTR, but this will be a mighty buff for ele:

    Shaman

    Elemental Mastery now has a 1-minute cooldown (was 2 minutes).
    Flame Shock's duration has been increased by 25%.

  17. #37
    Pit Lord Martinussen's Avatar
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    Hmm.. currently im in a a dps race against our lock. We're both around 495 ilvl. On fights with no adds, he beats my dps by quite a bit. But as soon as we have two or more targets, i easily take the cake as the best dps in our guild. Did 97.6k dps on will of the emperor on Raid Finder difiiculty. Did 158k on Elegon, but due to boss dying too quickly i couldn't get above 160. Wind lord? i win. Amber Shaper? I win. Sha of fear? I win. A couple more fights where i win aswell.

    I think we're in a good spot atm. i do pretty good single target dps. Not the best, but it aint bad.
    Aoe is pretty ok with Halo and the fix to mastery procs on mindsear.
    Multidotting is really strong.

    Overall, we're in a good place, but i think we're quite gear dependant.
    Last edited by Martinussen; 2012-12-24 at 06:47 PM.
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  18. #38
    A little buff on pve would be welcome, but what we, and all the priests really need, is a review on talents.
    Today, we only have shit t6 talents, that are complete useless for both, pvp and pve.
    And the Shadow World insanity need to be fixed asap!

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by snaxattax View Post
    if you take out elegon and will of the emperor, it paints a different picture. we're not complaining about spriest damage in every context, just in pure single target and to a lesser extent multidot council fights. on fights where you can keep up 60-70%+ uptime on twist of fate (and get the extra SWD shadoworbs), yes we are quite strong. elegon and will are probably the best examples of this - and elegon would be even more ridiculous if our shadow apparitions actually worked on heroic.

    honestly, elemental should have a significant reduction in the cooldown on their flameshock (at least for PVE) so they can do some amount of actual multidot (part of why their WOTE numbers are so awful), since their single target, clumped aoe, and burst is quite strong as-is, but this is about priests.
    Well Elemental is the last caster whos not able to multidot effectively.

    so Flamsshock would also have to deal a lot more damage to justify this.

    According to Simcraft, one flame shock 126k damage over nearly 30 seconds on average, so slightly above 4k dps. SW:P is about 270k and 10k dps. Adding VT, shadow can mutlidot to some extreme extent.

    It means nothing else that flams shock would have to deal double the damage/dps to make it multidot worth. I don't see this coming.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Catanowplx View Post
    Hmm.. currently im in a a dps race against our lock. We're both around 495 ilvl. On fights with no adds, he beats my dps by quite a bit. But as soon as we have two or more targets, i easily take the cake as the best dps in our guild. Did 97.6k dps on will of the emperor on Raid Finder difiiculty. Did 158k on Elegon, but due to boss dying too quickly i couldn't get above 160. Wind lord? i win. Amber Shaper? I win. Sha of fear? I win. A couple more fights where i win aswell.

    I think we're in a good spot atm. i do pretty good single target dps. Not the best, but it aint bad.
    Aoe is pretty ok with Halo and the fix to mastery procs on mindsear.
    Multidotting is really strong.

    Overall, we're in a good place, but i think we're quite gear dependant.
    Just because you beat the lock in your guild doesn't mean anything. It's entirely possible that the lock in your guild is under-performing while you're performing near your theoretical max.

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