Changes to T5 talents

[matthias9742]

Was looking at the new changes:
Death Siphon now heals for 150% of the damage dealt (was 100%).
Conversion now costs 5 Runic Power plus 5 per second thereafter (was 10 Runic Power plus 10 per second).

From a blood perspective Conversion still seems useless as its still 25 RP for just 15% of your HP back, and it still kills your RP generation for blood tap.
Death siphon, however, looks to be a much more interesting choice. Originally DSi could not compete with DS due to mastery until the healing from it got to absurd levels via AP (usually 200k+ AP for me). With the change we only need 75% of the current AP values to make it worthwhile for healing and only around 55-75k AP to make it hit harder than DS. I might actually try this out once PTR hits to see if it would be viable to make a DSi healing setup for blood.

Your thoughts?

[Kio]

They're both still awful compared to Death Pact due to Death Pacts burst healing.

[Deleted]

If you mean that DSi could replace DS in our rotation then I don't think it will ever happen...

[Falling]

Well, this just makes using DSi a tiny bit safer when you want more dmg

[Nillo]

Afaik it takes more than just 50% extra healing for Death Siphon to even be remotely worth considering as blood (Shields >>> Heal especially since DSi does tend to overheal). This will only reduce how gimicky a fight needs to be for it to be worth it.
Idk about the Conversion change - imo it's still to expensive for what it does compared to Death Siphon (which does plenty of damage) and Death Pact (free + burst heal).

[Mitra]

Conversion: i'm not willing to waste runic power on this, it stil seems like a bad spell to me, and when our rune system depends on how much Frost Strike/Death Coil/Rune Strike we use we come to 1 conclusion, waste of RP.
Death siphon: i'm looking forward into this change, it adds a little of heal to unholy and frost, but its a stupid spell to blood.
Death Pact: doesnt cost any runes heals 50%.
Overall: i guess nothing will change :P

[Kraeth]

Yeah, pretty useless changes from blood POV. Death Pact is still by far the best. Death Siphon might have some uses in dps specs depending on 5.2 encounters.

[NeverStop]

Death Siphon might become viable for fights with +damage done or +healing taken modifiers. For example, on H Wind Lord during his 600% damage taken phase, Death Siphon overtakes Death Strike in healing.

[Nillo]

Death Siphon might become viable for fights with +damage done or +healing taken modifiers. For example, on H Wind Lord during his 600% damage taken phase, Death Siphon overtakes Death Strike in healing.

It's already "viable" for those fights. Still the only fight where I found it to actually be worth it is Amber Shaper since you may end up without a healer and an insane damage done increase .... for everything else - even Elegon and Mel'Jarak the higher healing gained is generally outweighed by it not giving a blood shield.

[Deleted]

Conversion as it is going to be in the next patch seems to be at least better but still not viable. If I did the calculations and understood the mechanic correctly it will heal you for 54% of your health over 18 second period if you have full runic power and decide not to generate more. This seems to be more than the Death pact heals but it doesn't any RP cost. Conversion is like second wind that can be activated any time but with a cost so high that even by spamming howling blast you can't keep your runic power flowing to your heals. Death pact is still and will be the best choice if blizzard doesn't want to nerf it. Which would be quite unbearable to our even now so remotely nonexistent survivability. But I'm looking forward maybe playing some unholy in the next patch.

[matthias9742]

Afaik it takes more than just 50% extra healing for Death Siphon to even be remotely worth considering as blood (Shields >>> Heal especially since DSi does tend to overheal). This will only reduce how gimicky a fight needs to be for it to be worth it.
Idk about the Conversion change - imo it's still to expensive for what it does compared to Death Siphon (which does plenty of damage) and Death Pact (free + burst heal).

True I do not expect it to out perform DS, but would be interesting if AP/haste scaling at higher ilvl could make it a viable alternative to the standard blood builds.


Also I have no idea what they could do to make conversion not a horrible DPS/survivability loss. Possibly make it a toggle with a short CD that when you spend RP you gain health back but while active your RP gains are nerfed. Something like:
Conversion
20 sec cooldown
Every 10 RP spent causes you to regenerate 2% of your maximum health. While active your runic power generation is reduced by 50%.

Would make a whole runic power dump give you 20% of your health back. Numbers might need tweaking but anything is better than current even with the change.

[Dossou]

In my opinion Conversion needs to be fire and forget. Something like this.

Converts up to 50 Runic Power into up to 20% of your maximum HP.

Give it a 1 min CD.

[Nillo]

True I do not expect it to out perform DS, but would be interesting if AP/haste scaling at higher ilvl could make it a viable alternative to the standard blood builds.

Imo Death Siphon scales inversely with haste both for survivability and dps since it is only stronger for damage/healing per rune spend but weaker for damage per execution and only stronger for healing per execution time with massive damage taken increases (and then it tends to overheal a lot).

[Schizoide]

Death Siphon should work with Blood Shield and be tuned to be slightly less efficient than Death Strike on all encounters without a damage or healing gimmick. Conversion should have a 7% chance per tick to proc your L75 rune regen talent and a 15.6% chance per tick to stack Shadow Infusion on Unholy's pet.

[Nillo]

Death Siphon should work with Blood Shield and be tuned to be slightly less efficient than Death Strike on all encounters without a damage or healing gimmick.

Well the shield would have to be limited to an ap scaling rather than scaling with the DSi heal or else Blood DKs would be invincible on any boss with a significant damage and or healing modifier.

[Deleted]

i remember somewhere that ghostcrawler said that in mop they didnt want cookie cutter speccs that all the same people will use well guess what everyone who is a frost dk who pvp's uses the same setup pretty much which is this. UB,lichborne,chillblains,deathpact,runic empowerment and remorseless winter.


the reason dk's take those is cos all the other talents are useless in comparison i think the dk class got the least work done on them in mop

[Deleted]

Death Siphon doesnt hit any harder.

It just heals more.

[Schizoide]

Well the shield would have to be limited to an ap scaling rather than scaling with the DSi heal or else Blood DKs would be invincible on any boss with a significant damage and or healing modifier.

Yes, I think you're completely right about that.

[Senathor]

What's the one thing DK's do good right now? The one and ONLY thing? Damage. Why would anyone take the other abilities? They will just reduce damage, and then we got NOTHING, GG!

[Schizoide]

It's fine for a talent to be a DPS tradeoff for healing. The problem comes in when two of the talents have tradeoffs and one doesn't.