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  1. #1

    How do you feel about the "epicness" of raids?

    So I made posts on WoW forums about this, but not much response (only 1 really), and I'd really like to get some opinions on it, so here you go.

    I'm quite excited for 5.2 to come out, with a new raid that's apparently on the scale of Ulduar. I'm wondering whether the amount of bosses in one place is truly what makes a raid "epic". I feel a lot of the best raids were epic in a sense that they were not linear. You could choose where you wanted to go next, which boss to fight, and it'll all still end up leading to the final boss. Bosses being optional might not be a good idea, as eventually no one will just do them (Ignis, Razorscale etc you get the idea, although it was due to them having no hardmodes really lol). I didn't really enjoy the cata raids so much partially because all they really were were just straight lines, you can't travel in two directions, you have to go in one direction. You can argue in DS you had the choice of going Zon'ozz or Yor'sahj, but please, that was like a short flight followed by a 5 min boss fight back to a straight line again. Firelands was different, so why did people hate it so much? Not too sure tbh, I liked it, but I'm guessing the constant red and black just bored everyone to death (#bleak). That's just my problem with this model, there's basically no choice at all, and looking at the maps of the new raid, it seems like it's going in this path.

    In conjunction with that, you have to consider the size of instances as well. Looking back on it, raids have become a lot smaller since Cata hit, with MoP raids included (although ICC wasn't really too big, but the 3 wings gave it a better feel). You can argue that the number of bosses contributes to this, but when you look back at SSC and TK, they only had 6 and 4 bosses respectively, yet they were huge (at least SSC was). I feel this bit contributes a lot to how epic a raid is.

    To be honest though, even looking back at a lot of old raids which were deemed "epic", such as BWL and Kara, they were pretty linear too, but I just didn't get that feel. There's probably some other factor out there I'm not considering. That being said, tier 14 has been highly enjoyable and I feel boss fights are really top notch right now. Although heroic mode still doesn't change strats and gameplay (lol all of DS) much for a lot of bosses (bar a few like emperor, sha, vizier, spirit kings, etc), it's changing a lot more than any tier since Ulduar where it first started off. Can't wait for Throne of Thunder.

    Edit: Everyone has their own definitions of epic, and I accept that. Just trying to get a general idea from people here.
    Last edited by Munklemonk; 2012-12-23 at 08:15 PM.

  2. #2
    Mechagnome Proxeneta's Avatar
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    Never heard anyone classify BWL as "Epic" compared to other great raids such as Ulduar and Kara.

  3. #3
    The Unstoppable Force N-aix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proxeneta View Post
    Never heard anyone classify BWL as "Epic" compared to other great raids such as Ulduar and Kara.
    My memories of that place say one thing and only one thing

    Suppression Room

    Horrible times

  4. #4
    I'm really comparing it to raids these days. Ulduar to me was the best raid ever designed, but I'm not really trying to focus on that. The problem is the present day raids.

  5. #5
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    I think DS was the low point for WoW raid quality. Yes, lower than Trial of the Crusader. At least TotC had a sense of purpose and location. The constant warping in DS made it feel less epic, contrary to what Blizz felt.

    Since then we've had a shift toward giving raids (and 5-mans) a sense of location. The T14 raids all felt important, and the story while questing built up to them.

    We have yet to see the PTR so I can't judge T15, but it looks epic.
    "You should only install Warlords on your master hard drive. They will never be slaves." - @CM_Lore

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  6. #6
    I would never classify BWL as epic.... It was.... Painful, in the most monotonous of ways.
    It's like crossing an intersection. There's shit going on all over the place and you don't panic and act like an idiot then do you?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by dokhidamo View Post
    I think DS was the low point for WoW raid quality. Yes, lower than Trial of the Crusader. At least TotC had a sense of purpose and location. The constant warping in DS made it feel less epic, contrary to what Blizz felt.

    Since then we've had a shift toward giving raids (and 5-mans) a sense of location. The T14 raids all felt important, and the story while questing built up to them.

    We have yet to see the PTR so I can't judge T15, but it looks epic.
    I agree with you that the T14 raids have all felt important in the sense that they relate back to lore really well, and have a sense of purpose and location. But my main point here is that all of them consist of us basically just walking in straight lines north east south or west to each boss. There's no sense of direction if you get what I'm saying. The corridors are pretty small as well. I'm just bored of this layout which seemed to have started in T11 (with the exception of firelands which I would consider a great raid if it wasn't just 2 colours all the way through). And we have literally no choice at all. We can't skip a boss and come back to it later. I find these things more of a problem than purpose since that part is pretty well done right now.

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Epic for me is not more dexterity required for raiding.

    Epic for me is having a role I enjoy playing with a show worth watching and participating in (not another race to the finish line); and that show dovetails with the story of the expansion (not some filler).
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
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  9. #9
    Wasn't the only really linear raid in Cata BoT? BWD, Firelands and DS were all on par with Ulduar in "non-linearity". Point is that a raid being linear has nothing to do with it being epic or not. AQ40 was pretty much a straight line except for the 3 optionals but very few guilds were geared/skilled enough for Viscidus and Ouro. AQ40 is the most epic raid of all time.

  10. #10
    Epic is something that you step into and think "this is something I've never seen before", and as you continue to other sections, you feel the same effect.

    It is also something that either ties with the current story very well, or that introduces you to new and well written story you haven't seen before.

    As many have said, Ulduar was the best raid ever made because of this.

    An epic raid is not new boss mechanics, it's something that feels larger than life and when you complete you feel as if you've accomplished something great in the story.

    Ulduar, Naxxramas, Onyxia, Sunwell, Black Temple and Kharazan all describe for me truly epic raids.

  11. #11
    The Patient Arthrun's Avatar
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    Raids will never be as epic as before. Since we have LFR now, People that blast them through with no interest in lore or anything.
    I say, give us some LFR SPECIFIC raids and let the regular raids be just.. Regular. So that we can get that "Woah, I've never been here before. It's hard, and it's freakin' awesome!" feeling again..
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  12. #12
    Bloodsail Admiral Ethes's Avatar
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    I think tier 11 felt really epic. I think that in order for a raid to have a truely epic feel, they need several factors nicely mixed. Not just 1 thing!

    I agree with your point about progression not being linear, I think that is great. (tier 11 had that as well, due to being spread over several instances).
    The other thing that is important is the raid setting, don't just build random stuff somewhere and be teleported around all the time (Dragon Soul) but progress through the place. I personally prefer a setting that is mainly indoors for this reason.
    Lore is the other important build stone, if something doesn't make sense in the story then it limits the possible epicness a raid can have.

    So for me there are the following things that make a raid feel epic:
    - Difficulty
    - Non-linear progression
    - The raid setting
    - The lore

    A good mixture of the four points above can make a great receipe for a raid and yes, I'm looking forward to Throne of Thunder too!
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  13. #13
    I think tier fourteen was really epic even though it was linear and wasn't based on pre-mop lore! Heart of Fear and Mogu'shan vaults are brilliant instances! Throne of Thunder will kick ass!
    Hatred the Fearless.

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer slime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthrun View Post
    Raids will never be as epic as before. Since we have LFR now, People that blast them through with no interest in lore or anything.
    I say, give us some LFR SPECIFIC raids and let the regular raids be just.. Regular. So that we can get that "Woah, I've never been here before. It's hard, and it's freakin' awesome!" feeling again..
    I'll have to agree with this to an extent, exploration - your first time in a raid zone or getting to a new boss is that epic feel i believe - and no one makes you do LFR - but seriously we all know we have to do it to have as many gear drop possibilities as possible. And, unless you are in some super guild you probably aren't clear all normal raid content in 1 night, so some of the new stuff you will see in LFR first and like Arthrun said... you try to fly by it as fast as possible - no interest in the story and only limited interest in the scenery.

    I'll add one thing, I love when they add the hard mode only secret boss. That is truely epic to me - i.e. Alagon and Sinestra. Just getting to see those before the next tier is an epic feel (even though I am really just their next meal lol). But I haven't seen much of that lately. LK, did not need anything afterwards

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by -Apathy- View Post
    My memories of that place say one thing and only one thing

    Suppression Room

    Horrible times
    Suppression room wasn't really that annoying at 60. It's only annoying when you go back at high level with a small group and get slowed down by it. All the trash in Firemaws room was more annoying as it took ages to kill 1 pack and could wipe you if not careful, but at least it didn't respawn until reset.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethes View Post
    I think tier 11 felt really epic. I think that in order for a raid to have a truely epic feel, they need several factors nicely mixed. Not just 1 thing!

    I agree with your point about progression not being linear, I think that is great. (tier 11 had that as well, due to being spread over several instances).
    The other thing that is important is the raid setting, don't just build random stuff somewhere and be teleported around all the time (Dragon Soul) but progress through the place. I personally prefer a setting that is mainly indoors for this reason.
    Lore is the other important build stone, if something doesn't make sense in the story then it limits the possible epicness a raid can have.

    So for me there are the following things that make a raid feel epic:
    - Difficulty
    - Non-linear progression
    - The raid setting
    - The lore

    A good mixture of the four points above can make a great receipe for a raid and yes, I'm looking forward to Throne of Thunder too!
    You can say that progression isn't linear this tier, and it isn't as much as it could be. But it still is for the most part. People are finishing MSV Heroic first before moving onto HoF. Only because of the sheer difficulty of Empress compared to the first three TOES bosses they skip her and go there. As someone from Method (or blood legion, I can't remember which) said, you can completely outgear MSV now and make it a joke compared to when it was first released. I don't like the gated raids much but it worked out well in a way due to the start of a new expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooindathor View Post
    Wasn't the only really linear raid in Cata BoT? BWD, Firelands and DS were all on par with Ulduar in "non-linearity". Point is that a raid being linear has nothing to do with it being epic or not. AQ40 was pretty much a straight line except for the 3 optionals but very few guilds were geared/skilled enough for Viscidus and Ouro. AQ40 is the most epic raid of all time.
    DS is considered linear. The only choice you have is going to Yorsahj or Zon'ozz, and when you take that choice, you're already at him. AQ 40 was a straight line, but I didn't say that linearity was the only problem with raids. The size of them too. AQ40 was huge. The halls were massive, etc.

  17. #17
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    I don't consider a raid to have a specific size to be epic. ICC was epic because we were fighting the Lich King and the fights were fun, to me. DS, not so much. I thought BWD was pretty epic with some challenging mechanics and fights to work through.

    Size, meh. I enjoy the lore and the quests but I don't care much for giant hallways.



  18. #18
    The Unstoppable Force N-aix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laserguns View Post
    Suppression room wasn't really that annoying at 60. It's only annoying when you go back at high level with a small group and get slowed down by it. All the trash in Firemaws room was more annoying as it took ages to kill 1 pack and could wipe you if not careful, but at least it didn't respawn until reset.
    Did you progress on it :O since you seem to experience it your self; Every wipe was like pulling teeth out haha

  19. #19
    The Lightbringer Alceus's Avatar
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    only thing i consider epic so far in MoP is the golden lotus end quests.
    I felt like a hero for the very first time lol.
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  20. #20
    epicness to a raid doesnt equal size to me. size can help in certain cases but a raid has to be a combination of lore atmosphere and character design to feel epic to me.

    ive been running ulduar for a couple weeks now to try to get warrior tier recolors for my dk and the nostalgia is really hitting me and now that i can go in and solo half of it or bring in 2 or 3 budddies and wreck the place i can take my time with the raid and really enjoy it.

    my favorite boss is probably xt.
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