Thread: Frost vs. UH

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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Fury Junior View Post
    I kind of bugs me when people say that they would never play UH unless it becomes pet-less... if they did that UH would lose ALL it's flavor.
    I don't think people mean it needs to be only pet-less but just have a pet-less option like warlocks. You say it would lose all it's flavor but for almost all of wrath it did depend on pet damage but it wasn't a slave to its pet either and that was arguably the time when it was most popular.

  2. #22
    Herald of the Titans Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fury Junior View Post
    I kind of bugs me when people say that they would never play UH unless it becomes pet-less... if they did that UH would lose ALL it's flavor.
    Unholy did fine flavor-wise in WOTLK when the pet was more of a pleasant bonus. Cata turned Timmy into your 24/7 daycare toddler that requires frequent breastfeeding. That's the difference for me — I don't mind having the Ghoul around, but I do mind feeling like "Timmy! And that DK who follows him around".

  3. #23
    I'm DW Frost atm, but prefer Unholy. If Frost's cleaves don't own on a ton of fights and Unholy is neck and neck single target, I will go back to Unholy for the preference and the niciety of getting just 1 weapon upgrade.

    That being said DW frost plays a ton like Unholy (Single Rune Finishers), so all in all it's more cosmetic and weapon upgrade easiness.

  4. #24
    DW frost plays nothing like unholy. Yes, they both focus on single rune attacks, but unholy uses a double-rune attack also, doesn't game RE, has the whole terrible pet buff rampup, etc.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    DW frost plays nothing like unholy. Yes, they both focus on single rune attacks, but unholy uses a double-rune attack also, doesn't game RE, has the whole terrible pet buff rampup, etc.
    Err whats obl when you have a unholy rune hmmn a 2 rune attack. Whats top dps fow dw hmmn blood tap not RE. Yes they play similar on runes...the effects only vary.

  6. #26
    DW uses blood tap differently and uses its 2-rune strike differently. They're nothing alike.

    Also, while BT is technically top DPS for DW, there's a very strong chance you're doing it wrong, as the DW priority with blood tap is not easy to execute properly. Lots of people read FAQs and try to do what they say, even when they lack the ability to actually do it.

  7. #27
    Warchief IRunSoFarAway's Avatar
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    I've always liked Frost more than UH so no I won't even if it becomes better. I've never liked the pet aspect of it for the most part, there's some fights where it's either just a hassle to have a pet, or the pet just doesn't attack things and stands there even if you tell it what to attack.

    I wish they'd somehow put in an option to be UH without the pet for equal DPS, they couldn't put it in the talent tree because it'd only be a 1 spec choice and be useless for blood/frost. Maybe just do what they did with druids and add a 4th spec for UH w/o a pet?
    Waaaaah this guy was mean to me! Waaaaaaaaah!

    I'm mean because you're stupid.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    DW uses blood tap differently and uses its 2-rune strike differently. They're nothing alike.

    Also, while BT is technically top DPS for DW, there's a very strong chance you're doing it wrong, as the DW priority with blood tap is not easy to execute properly. Lots of people read FAQs and try to do what they say, even when they lack the ability to actually do it.
    There is no chance I am doing it incorrectly...and if you really look at the rotations and have played the extensively you would see the similarity.

    Unholy Opener, OutBreak, SS, FS, SS, FS---hmmn now a ton of Death Runes for SS spam

    Frost Opener, POF, Outbreak, OBL, OBL---now a ton of HB spam

    You FS as often when you get going as you OBL when you get going on both rotations and Blood Tap returns a single rune to be used on either a free HB or an OBL. You can DnD instead of OBL but for most intents and purposes on a single target its safer to OBL.

    In any case, not going to argue a "semantic" and "opinion" based post. IMO Frost/Unholy play very similarly as far as Rune goes and if you want Unholy without a pet try DW Frost and see if that suffices, it most likely will. My experience is Full Normal Clears with 4 Heroics in MV on 25. As well as 4 years or more playing this game as a Warlock/Death Knight/Mage/Rogue always raiding at a competitive level. It's easy to see similarities across the dps specs if you've DPSed for a long enough time...it is you know Blizz designing the classes they aren't going to differ but so damn much.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by rap87 View Post
    There is no chance I am doing it incorrectly...
    Frost Opener, POF, Outbreak
    You sure about that?

  10. #30
    I hate the DW frost rotation but stacking mastery is so much more convenient on a lot of fights.

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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenxion78 View Post
    You sure about that?
    Should I go post a lovely copy and past rotation from icy veins or EJ, will that make you feel better. There are times you do things beyond what's listed.

    you POF before you outbreak to get a snapshot of your stats for your DOTS, and yes they snapshot.

    Your now sitting with DD F PP

    You Oblt

    Your now sitting with DD P

    You Oblit

    Your now sitting with D

    You now continue with HB spam, and you may have FS in between Oblt depending on procs. I also tend to pop my ghoul at this time in case he still snapshots stats, I haven't bothered to look this up at the moment but this is all done within about 5 to 10 secs and for most fights isn't going to affect if I get another one out. I'd prefer to play it safe and assumes he does snapshot dots and after 10 secs I'll have trinkets up with PoF.

    You weave in Blood Tap charges, at best when you have 0 Unholy Runes, as it's better to get a HB out of those rune slots than an Oblt, but if you get a ton of Haste through BL or w/e you should use it not to cap. All in all I would do your best to be able to FS and continue Blood Tapping HB while never hitting a deadzone. The only point you slow down is if your sitting at around 40 runic power and at that point you want to make sure you always have at least 20 to do a KM FS.

    Again go have a pissing contest with someone else, I know what Percentile of Ranks I post every week on WoL do you? The simple fact is Unholy and Frost have a very similar tempo, with 2 Hand Frost playing more like a Blood Dk. Pick whatever tempo you prefer and whichever one is sitting better on simulationcraft...unless you play casual...then bring your raid down since you don't want to play what's best...but at least here if you like Unholy's tempo you could try DW Frost and get a win win, vs sacrificing and hating 2 hand.
    Last edited by rap87; 2012-12-24 at 11:38 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    Please learn what viable actually means.

    Unholy is certainly viable already and is will be even better after the patch.
    Seeing as how currently unholy is a good 4-5k behind on most fights...I will still by my "not viable" statement.

  13. #33
    insant gargoyle nuke might change me

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by GamerLCD View Post
    Seeing as how currently unholy is a good 4-5k behind on most fights...I will still by my "not viable" statement.
    No offense (seriously), but that's because you don't know what viable means. You can complete the content as Unholy, therefore it's viable. Almost everything is viable. The word you're looking for is competitive.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2012-12-25 at 01:22 AM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    No offense (seriously), but that's because you don't know what viable means. You can complete the content as Unholy, therefore it's viable. Almost everything is viable. The word you're looking for is competitive.


    95% right. Unholy can beat frost on specific fights. The word you are looking for is optimal

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    95% right. Unholy can beat frost on specific fights. The word you are looking for is optimal
    Burn!

    I stand corrected.

  17. #37
    only switching if frost is massively worse, as in 20-30% worse across the board on all, or at least the majority, of fights
    until then timmy can go burn in hell

  18. #38
    Believe it or not I actually realise that dots snapshot stats. What I'm getting it is more along the lines of the fact that you appear to believe that 30 secs of BP being buffed by PoF outweighs using it when you have all your strength procs up. The fact that your confident enough to mention your WoL ranks just goes to show what an amazing player you must be to do so while playing the spec wrong. It might interest you to know that I actually agree with you somewhat with regards to DW feeling like UH (insofar as they both utilise a single rune main ability and BT), but don't worry I'll go and have a 'pissing contest' with someone else.

  19. #39
    Haven't been Unholy since T10, hate the post 4.0 pet AI. I stayed 2H Frost for 4.2 and 4.3, so I'm sure not feeling forced to switch yet.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenxion78 View Post
    Believe it or not I actually realise that dots snapshot stats. What I'm getting it is more along the lines of the fact that you appear to believe that 30 secs of BP being buffed by PoF outweighs using it when you have all your strength procs up. The fact that your confident enough to mention your WoL ranks just goes to show what an amazing player you must be to do so while playing the spec wrong. It might interest you to know that I actually agree with you somewhat with regards to DW feeling like UH (insofar as they both utilise a single rune main ability and BT), but don't worry I'll go and have a 'pissing contest' with someone else.
    Well, in that case I apologize for my over hasty comments stemming from in general iritation. It seems when looking over some of the comments in this thread and particularly the "Waiting" thread for 2hand, people are more interested in being "Right" than putting out a constructive argument that is helpful. So I apologize I threw you into that group, however, your short comment lead me to that feeling.

    I can see your logic there, in general I feel like Relic of Xuen procs very quickly along with Lei Shein and I always pre-pot. But I would suspect that perhaps FS buffed with POF might beat out a buffed Plague Strike. I was just trying to infer, in general I know what I'm doing with the specs and they do "feel" similar. In any case, again, sorry for me being in a bad mood. And I hope they buff Unholy to a lvl of enough that it is "viable" "competitive" and w/e else so people can choose based on what they like via flavor and weapon choice, but at the moment DW Frost might fill the void if you like Unholy but want every ounce of DPS you can get.

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