Is this a sackable offence?

[jbhasban]

The correct answer is -

It depends if you are breaking anything your employee contract states.

If you read your holiday entitlement it will clearly spell the rules out. If you break your contract, they can sack you.

It doesnt matter what your manager has told you. He isnt the one that makes the contract rules.

Managers, as an agent for the corporation with apparent if not actual authority to speak on behalf of the company, can forgive or authorize deviations from contracts.

[mmociloveu]

Managers, as an agent for the corporation with apparent if not actual authority to speak on behalf of the company, can forgive or authorize deviations from contracts.

IF a manager in England treats an employee in such a way that breaks terms with the employee contract, then the manager is likely to get sacked.

Neither employer nor employee can break contract without consent of the other party.

Thats the whole point of having a contract.


If what you said is true, then managers could do whatever they liked with employees, and this simply is not true. The managers have no legal rights whatsoever to operate in such a way that the employee contract rules are broken.

[Zippoflames]

Don't know about others in the UK but every job I have had you had to fill a form in saying date of first day holiday and date of last day holiday, Never ever had to give any other reason to why I want the time off, They can either approve it or decline it giving you a reason.

Only thing that could cause an issue is if you phoned in sick then went out on the piss etc.

[Pendulous]

Only thing that could cause an issue is if you phoned in sick then went out on the piss etc.

Or maybe if your day off request got declined, and you called in that day anyway. They might be a little peeved at that.

Funny story though, my last job, somebody called in a whole weekend because he broke his foot playing cricket (I think, but whichever sport it was he really did play at college, that part is true). Dumbass has friends that posted pictures of him on Facebook, at freaking Six Flags. Comes in to work, and not even limping. You break your foot, and even athletes are out for a long time.

He got promoted soon after. Gotta love nepotism.

[Grym]

OP is in UK, since he said work for Sainsbury.

You need to check your contracts, if it stated that you cannot have those days as holidays, then you are sod out of luck. Some professions have certain days and time that they cannot have off. As an accountant I would be silly to even ask to have month end off (unless it is a special case), stacking shelf in a supermarket, during Christmas time, when it is the busiest, I would say if they found it it would be a perfectly sackable offence.

Note: do NOT, post anything on Facebook like "yay I got my time off work, gonna sleep all day!!!" and such, if they found out via Facebook you might as well start looking for new job.

---------- Post added 2012-12-24 at 11:41 PM ----------

No its not. Your boss has no right to decide if your holiday plans are good enough to let you off. You are using holiday days you have acquired through some means of store policy. Your reason for using them is null and void and you can't be fired for it.

Actually, you CAN.

Especially shelf stacking staff, they most likely have signed a contract that certain days they cannot have off, it is just part of occupation committment, and if it is in the contract that you cannot have Christmas off, and you got your way round by lying, it is sackable.

[Terridon]

I'dd say it depends on where you live. It's on the border of being a legit reason to fire you, if they want to get rid of you.

In reality, they just want to know it ahead of time. As you say. you're not in some highly important position and they can deal with it without you.
As a boss i wouldn't care, but people are diffrent. If i didn't like the coworker and saw him post on facebook about him lying it might be another case.

Personally i just say i want to take time off when it is, and if they don't want to give it, i tell them i take the time of no matter what. I guess it depends on how much you care about the job, what you do <.<
Only time i had trouble with that approach was some boring job,when i had to do the boss's work too, so i knew they wouldn't fire me.

[jbhasban]

IF a manager in England treats an employee in such a way that breaks terms with the employee contract, then the manager is likely to get sacked.

Neither employer nor employee can break contract without consent of the other party.

Thats the whole point of having a contract.


If what you said is true, then managers could do whatever they liked with employees, and this simply is not true. The managers have no legal rights whatsoever to operate in such a way that the employee contract rules are broken.

Managers can decide things that they have actual or apparent authority to do. Manager's jobs are to manage their employees. This includes, or reasonably includes (thus apparent authority), whether their employees are on vacation or not, whether they can take sick leave, and what not. As such, the manager can speak for the company in this regard. Can the manager do things like sign contracts with outside agents? No, because he has no actual or apparent authority in that regard. If a manager with apparent authority authorizes something he is not allowed to authorize under his contract, then he will be fired. HOWEVER, the employee who relied upon the manager's representation would not be fired nor would he be in breach of his contract because the company, through the manager, authorizes the deviation even thought he manager had no actual authority to do so.

[mmociloveu]

Managers can decide things that they have actual or apparent authority to do. Manager's jobs are to manage their employees. This includes, or reasonably includes (thus apparent authority), whether their employees are on vacation or not, whether they can take sick leave, and what not. As such, the manager can speak for the company in this regard. Can the manager do things like sign contracts with outside agents? No, because he has no actual or apparent authority in that regard. If a manager with apparent authority authorizes something he is not allowed to authorize under his contract, then he will be fired. HOWEVER, the employee who relied upon the manager's representation would not be fired nor would he be in breach of his contract because the company, through the manager, authorizes the deviation even thought he manager had no actual authority to do so.

Well maybe in the country where you come from, not in England though.

Neither employer, manager nor employee can break contract terms without consequence.

And if you ask me, a lowly manager, acting on behalf of the company, being able to deviate from the contract of employment is probably the most retarded thing i have ever heard of.

It basically means he can operate outside of contract conditions whenever he likes, which defeats the whole purpose of even having a contract.

[FrankLampard]

Does not matter how you justify it now, I know, everyone here knows, and you yourself know, that what you have done is for entirely selfish reasons. Not only had you better hope your boss does not find out, you had better hope your fellow employees dont find out, because they will make your life hell if at all possible.

You are shitting on other people for your own selfish reasons. Dont hide from that, if you are ok with that, thats up to you, but I suspect you feel guilty otherwise why post this? and you know its wrong otherwise you woudl not need to lie about it.

Yes, I am doing it for a selfish reason, but are you so perfect? I guess you're like 90% of the other posters on this forum. A fricking saint.

[mmociloveu]

Yes, I am doing it for a selfish reason, but are you so perfect? I guess you're like 90% of the other posters on this forum. A fricking saint.

I dont even think it is selfish.

Most employees working in England in supermarkets and such work hard and get paid peanuts for it.

You help make the owners and directors millionaires while you get paid a measly £6 an hour or so.

Although i dont want it to happen, but if it did and the low-paid workforce of England revolted, i would be of opinion that it was completely justified.


I regularly take extra breaks in my place of work because of what i give to them. I definatlely feel i give more than i get back. And i make sure i NEVER work an unpaid lunchbreak or overtime. Once you start doing that, you are expected to do it and will get walked all over.

[slime]

Yes it is sackable, just nearly impossible to prove. Sure even running into a boss means little - because as we all know plans can change. The thing you did right here was give 2 months notice - and that pretty much covers you. Hard to prove you were lying about having plans and then - whatever - they fell through and you didn't go anywhere - but at that point you didn't want to cancel the holiday you put in for 2 month prior.

You be fine - Enjoy the vacation time, sounds like you earned it.



P.S. what the person above me said too.

[jbhasban]

Well maybe in the country where you come from, not in England though.

Neither employer, manager nor employee can break contract terms without consequence.

And if you ask me, a lowly manager, acting on behalf of the company, being able to deviate from the contract of employment is probably the most retarded thing i have ever heard of.

It basically means he can operate outside of contract conditions whenever he likes, which defeats the whole purpose of even having a contract.

They can do this in England too. This is from agency law in the field of contracts and has been part of common law forever. The manager is not acting outside of the contract conditions. The manager is forgiving a contract condition and permitting a deviation on behalf of the company. What I don't think you understand is that written contracts can be modified by oral contracts if there is consideration and if the statute of frauds does not otherwise bar the modification and that written contract terms can be forgiven by those with authority to forgive. Authority exists in three ways: actual, implied, and apparent. In this case, the manager likely has apparent authority to permit an employee to deviate from the contract.

For example, if a sales manager were to have no actual authority to sell products from his corporation, a buyer could nonetheless buy from the corporation through the sales manager if the sales manager agrees to sell the buyer a product. This is because the title of the sales manager would make a reasonable person believe he could sell products. In a similar vein, an employee could reasonably rely upon the position of his manager to decide whether or not he could take days off. This is because the very nature of the employee's manager's title is that he is permitted to manage the employee in his employment.

The purpose of the contract is to bind the respective parties to the contract. This means the employee cannot deviate from the contract without the employer permitting the deviation. The employer cannot deviate from the contract without the employee permitting the deviation. In this case, the corporation is bound by the contract in so far as the employee does not want the contract to be changed and visa versa. However, the whole point is that the manager can act on behalf of the corporation in those areas where he has actual, implied, or apparent authority to do so.

[mmociloveu]

They can do this in England too. This is from agency law in the field of contracts and has been part of common law forever. The manager is not acting outside of the contract conditions. The manager is forgiving a contract condition and permitting a deviation on behalf of the company. What I don't think you understand is that written contracts can be modified by oral contracts if there is consideration and if the statute of frauds does not otherwise bar the modification and that written contract terms can be forgiven by those with authority to forgive. Authority exists in three ways: actual, implied, and apparent. In this case, the manager likely has apparent authority to permit an employee to deviate from the contract.

For example, if a sales manager were to have no actual authority to sell products from his corporation, a buyer could nonetheless buy from the corporation through the sales manager if the sales manager agrees to sell the buyer a product. This is because the title of the sales manager would make a reasonable person believe he could sell products. In a similar vein, an employee could reasonably rely upon the position of his manager to decide whether or not he could take days off. This is because the very nature of the employee's manager's title is that he is permitted to manage the employee in his employment.

The purpose of the contract is to bind the respective parties to the contract. This means the employee cannot deviate from the contract without the employer permitting the deviation. The employer cannot deviate from the contract without the employee permitting the deviation. In this case, the corporation is bound by the contract in so far as the employee does not want the contract to be changed and visa versa. However, the whole point is that the manager can act on behalf of the corporation in those areas where he has actual, implied, or apparent authority to do so.

That is what i already said to you.

Neither party can deviate from contract unless the other parties agree.

You said the manager can deviate from contract whenever he/she sees fit. Which i told you was wrong.

Now you are just repeating with a wall of text what i already said to you ><

Serious /facepalm, but its christmas, so i forgive you

[Kardezar]

Yea, i've been fired for less. :/

[Calelith]

Not really, all you have to say is it was cancelled.

[Ciddy]

I don't think so. Time off is time off. What you do when you're not on your employer's time is none of your employer's business. Especially considering the fact you requested that time off 2 months in advance.

If they spot you in public and ask about it, just say your plans changed.

[Ssith]

No, you told a white lie. But you booked your time off and it was granted as per company procedure.

It is your choice what you do with time off, be it holiday or just to get time off during the holidays. All it creates now is a (most likely) trust issue with your Bosses/colleagues should they find out that you are not going away.

I did the exact same thing, although I only lied within a few seconds of my old boss telling me 'You can't just have time off when you want it'. Made some crap up about it was already booked etc. - Totally bought it!

pretty much this, right here. you followed rules, you may have had to beg for it, but they gave you the time off. they cannot dictate what you DO with that time off.

going away doesn't mean staying away, and you're not necessarily gone the whole time.

[Nyxxi]

Imagine if your boss played wow and visited these forums :P oh the horror.....

Well at least you didn't post this on facebook ey

However if you are a permanent employee which i guess you are, its very difficult for such a large company to sack you for something as small as this, they have to go through a lot of paperwork when they sack someone and if it can come back and bite them they probably won't. Relatively small companies have much less problems when it comes to sacking.

[Adam Jensen]

Maybe not, but you could easily get a warning, and I would keep your mouth shut about it in work, and well away from the supermarket and anyone who works there who might see you.

Trust me from someone that used to work in a supermarket, youngsters who think they are being cool skipping all the shitty shifts (yes, now someone else has to work them and miss stuff instead of you) and get seen about get reported. Seen it happen...

Basically you are being a douchebag to your colleagues.

Heh, I work at a ski mountain and there was idiot lift operators who claimed to be sick to get out of work . . . and he went skiing . . . at the mountain he's suppose to be working at.

People are dumbasses.

[Spicy]

If it came out of your holidays which you're entitled to, and if you gave them plenty of notice, it's none of their business what you do on your time off. You have holidays to book off and what you do with them is your business.

Also, a job is a job. Wether it's stacking shelves or flipping burgers, stop being so damn harsh.