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  1. #1
    High Overlord
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    Hoping to get some opinions on some of my raid members

    Hello, I am a new raid leader for a long term guild that composes of a mix of old raiders and new raiders with the expansion. I'm new to analysing faults and checking over logs for improvements so I'm hoping to get some assistance from raiders here. Dragon soul I just dps'd and offered input to the raid leader when I felt appropriate. Now I'm in the position of being in charge and there are a few issues with my team and I'm unsure how to go about handling them. Poor dps is the biggest thing I'm looking for help with, as well as perhaps working out if there are things as a whole our team can do better. We aren't in a position to drop out members to bring new people in (for now). For now I'd like to give everybody an equal chance to improve what they are doing. Our biggest issue outside of dps has been raid attendance - It's pretty much out of peoples hands, but we haven't had full raid attendance in a while from people having work assignments to exam finals and even bouts of sickness. I think the lack of raid time is a big a problem as the dps

    So to get right down to it, our team is struggling on Elegon normal right now. Thursday night was our first three hour raid night specifically on one boss in quite some time, but we also had 2 pugs followed by a dps losing their internet connection and having to be replaced by a third pug. Our best attempt was about 35% hp with 1 minute on the enrage timer and this is the only time we made it to the final transisition

    Strategy - 2 tanks, 6 dps, 2 heals. Tank 1 stays on the boss until the protector dies - tank 2 stays outside (no stacks) until the protector spawns, tanks swap positions, easy peasy. Ranged dps stay on the edge, clearing stacks by jumping. 2 dps (in ideal circumstances, unholy dk and shadow priest) stay on the boss at all times, whilst putting dots on each protector with minimal down time. For the first log I'll post, we had both shadow priests do this. Phase 2, everybody gets to their positions, dps the boss as much as possible, kill adds, immediately back on the boss with stacks being cleared, down 4 sets of adds, dps boss during final wave, run out. Get the beacons down, tank 1 picks up the adds, tank 2 immediately goes to elegon, dps burn the adds down except for the elegon dps (the unholy dk would pop an unholy blight on them). Rinse, repeat. Call for wipes if a third protector spawns before phase 2 or if we don't down 4 sets of adds during phase 2. Pre pot, save major cooldowns (army, heroism) for final transition.

    Our composition that night had me as a backup tank seeing as our off tank was one of the people we had to replace.

    For the majority of our raids I've been the off tank, but it's clear at this point that I'm also one of our best dps and it's going to be most valuable to the raid to have me dpsing. I'm going to post logs of Thursday night in which I was tanking. People may point out overall dps being low, but we were also down two dps (which includes myself). I have faith in our team to down the boss if a couple of specific people can just up their game.

    Our ideal composition (with armory links). Since we've had pugs, you may want to ignore people not listed here from the logs.

    Tank1 - Deek (blood dk) http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...er/Deek/simple
    Tank2 - To be replaced (I've dropped him from the team)
    Dps - AndyF (unholy dk) http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...r/Andyf/simple (Personal note, working on the gloves)
    Dps - Bsillychilly (shadow priest) http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ychilly/simple
    Dps - Drèw (ele shaman) http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...%C3%A8w/simple
    Dps - Malanek (frost/unholy dk) http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Malanek/simple
    Dps - Leikai (ww monk) http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Leikai/simple
    Heals - Athala (resto shaman) http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Athala/simple
    Heals - Tygrandar (resto druid) http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...mer/Tygrandar/
    Heals - Myztweaver (heal monk) http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...tweaver/simple

    In general, I'm happy with most of our team. Our dps monk Leikai however, is not playing to his potential and I'm getting frequent complaints about him. I have no idea how dps monks play, so I'm not in a position to tell him what he's doing wrong. For Elegon specifically, Malanek struggles with killing the fourth wave of adds. I have no idea why he is struggling. He has begun to raid as unholy, but was previously frost. I have told him basic things such as pre emptive death and decay, I've gave him macros for pet attacks that causes the pet to attack his current target and got it tied to all his melee attacks (seeing as assist switching is slow). He still struggled on his own and with his gear he shouldn't. A tank assists him, but really shouldn't have to. He ended up switching to frost again just for the burst provided but myself as an unholy dk, I have no issues. Maybe it's just because I'm slightly better geared than him? I'm also aware that our resto shaman underperforms, but she has high latency. She is not a crutch for us and has never been responsible for a wipe so I'm not concerned with that for now. Our heals are doing excellently, our main tank is excellent. I hope to recruit a capable tank over the next 2 weeks (taking a break from raiding for the holidays). So for now, I'd like to see if I can get any constructive criticism or advice on how to improve my raid team.

    Logs

    This is our full night of attempted progression on Elegon. Drew's net cut halfway through the fight so we had to replace him. We were missing a tank and healer so our healer (tygrandar) who usually dps's this fight as a boomkin stayed heals and we got a pug. So if there are any comments, please keep in mind that the pugs contributions aren't noteworthy since we won't see them again.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/2w00sacc2khku059/

    This is a log of our mostly full team trying all the fights except elegon with myself on dps. We had Drew missing for exam finals and Bsillychilly was travelling up the country via airplane that night.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h2w44wk1dlsi5b3u/

    And if anybody cares to go the extra length for opinions to offer, our full raid logs can be found here - http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/108929/



    So in closing, I am going to be very grateful to any advice and comments given which may help our group. If I can get constructive criticism to help improve our monk I will be very happy and any suggestions for Elegon will be appreciated (unless its just a numbers problem, then we're fine if we have our full team and the monk pulling his weight. I do believe that the 21st nerf will help us out a lot). So thank you in advance to any posters who help out.

  2. #2
    Looking through all the tries there seemed to be a lot of deaths to adds.

    Make sure your dps aren't switching to the Protector until the tank has control of it, there seemed to be a couple melee deaths to it. The way my guild handled the Protectors was having the offtank pick it up and drag it towards the edge, the melee would kill the Protector whilst the ranged stayed on Elegon as we had no issues killing it fast enough. Once it reaches around 25% health the tank should pull it off the platform, melee should finish it off, make sure their stacks have dropped and then return to the boss. The tank who had the add then taunted Elegon and the other tank dealt with the next Protector.

    The Cosmic Sparks spawned in the 2nd phase seemed to be the cause of most deaths though. Are you killing all the pillars roughly the same time? If there's too much time between the first pillar going down and the last one you're going to end up overrun by adds. You should aim to bring all the pillars to around 10% and have one person on each side call out, then finish them all off together. Once the pillars are down everyone should move to an assigned stack point(we use the console) and one tank should pick up all the sparks, it's helpful to chain stuns if you have them to keep the tank damage down. It's then just a case of AoE'ing the adds down, move onto the platform soon as it spawns again and make sure the other tank picks up the boss quickly to avoid him gripping the whole raid to the centre.

  3. #3
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    That's a lot of info and I honestly just took a fast glance at your first WoL report.

    The first thing that springs to mind, is your setup. Normally I'd say that setup doesn't matter for Normal mode - specially not this far into the Tier. But seeing you're struggling, your setup would be one thing to change. 3 melee dps is crap, since melee lose a lot of dps having to move. On top of that, they do way too little dps. Though your ranged dps aren't impressive, their dps would have been enough, had your melee dps been better.

    Who's killing the adds? I don't hope you have the melee on the adds, let the ranged do that.

    How many waves of sparks do you kill? Should be at least 4 waves.

    Your Resto Druid seems to be a bit low on healing as well. On your longest attempt, you lost the dps Monk almost at the beginning, this should not happen.

    I see at one point your Warlock got hit by breath, this can easily be avoided and it means that your Lock was standing the wrong place. Since nobody else got hit, he must have been standing outside the group?

    Stack all ranged and healers at the panel during ph 1, that way nobody but the tanks should get hit.

    Your Lock died from the adds during ph 2, why? Was the tank not picking up the adds fast enough? Did you get too many adds for the tanks to handle? Or was the Lock slacking behind?

    Not sure if you know this but the faster you kill the conducters, the fewer adds you get. You need to kill them asap and one way to do this, is switching to them, as soon as they are up. Most ppl spend the time before the floor disappears to dps the boss but if you can't kill the conducters fast enough, switch to them right away in stead.

    Don't stand in the lightning circles where the adds spawn obviously and have you ranged and healers stack on the tanks. Move as a group, so the tank can AoE while running and don't dps the adds, until you've gathered at the panel.

    About your Monk; while I don't know much about Monks, he has to do the footwork himself. Point him to MMO Monk forum, EJ, Icy Veins or w/e, cause he seems to be completely clueless tbh. If he wants to play a Monk, he needs to learn to play it.

    When looking at the 2 Spriests, there's also a rather big difference. Bsillychilly should get some pointers from Imam, cause Imam and your Lock are the only ones doing what they should be doing dps wise.

    In general I'd need to know a bit more about, how you approach the fight. Cause most people struggling on Elegon be it Normal og Heroic, use a wrong tactic.

    Here's a link to my guild's Heroic Elegon, notice how we position and how we deal with ph 2.

    http://www.wowprogress.com/video/207...estoration-pov

    Edit: Elegon on both Normal and Heroic should be 2 healed.
    Last edited by Danishpsycho; 2012-12-24 at 11:52 AM.

  4. #4
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    That's a lot of info and I honestly just took a fast glance at your first WoL report.

    The first thing that springs to mind, is your setup. Normally I'd say that setup doesn't matter for Normal mode - specially not this far into the Tier. But seeing you're struggling, your setup would be one thing to change. 3 melee dps is crap, since melee lose a lot of dps having to move. On top of that, they do way too little dps. Though your ranged dps aren't impressive, their dps would have been enough, had your melee dps been better.

    Who's killing the adds? I don't hope you have the melee on the adds, let the ranged do that.

    How many waves of sparks do you kill? Should be at least 4 waves.

    Your Resto Druid seems to be a bit low on healing as well. On your longest attempt, you lost the dps Monk almost at the beginning, this should not happen.

    I see at one point your Warlock got hit by breath, this can easily be avoided and it means that your Lock was standing the wrong place. Since nobody else got hit, he must have been standing outside the group?

    Stack all ranged and healers at the panel during ph 1, that way nobody but the tanks should get hit.

    Your Lock died from the adds during ph 2, why? Was the tank not picking up the adds fast enough? Did you get too many adds for the tanks to handle? Or was the Lock slacking behind?

    Not sure if you know this but the faster you kill the conducters, the fewer adds you get. You need to kill them asap and one way to do this, is switching to them, as soon as they are up. Most ppl spend the time before the floor disappears to dps the boss but if you can't kill the conducters fast enough, switch to them right away in stead.

    Don't stand in the lightning circles where the adds spawn obviously and have you ranged and healers stack on the tanks. Move as a group, so the tank can AoE while running and don't dps the adds, until you've gathered at the panel.

    About your Monk; while I don't know much about Monks, he has to do the footwork himself. Point him to MMO Monk forum, EJ, Icy Veins or w/e, cause he seems to be completely clueless tbh. If he wants to play a Monk, he needs to learn to play it.

    When looking at the 2 Spriests, there's also a rather big difference. Bsillychilly should get some pointers from Imam, cause Imam and your Lock are the only ones doing what they should be doing dps wise.

    In general I'd need to know a bit more about, how you approach the fight. Cause most people struggling on Elegon be it Normal og Heroic, use a wrong tactic.

    Here's a link to my guild's Heroic Elegon, notice how we position and how we deal with ph 2.

    http://www.wowprogress.com/video/207...estoration-pov

    Edit: Elegon on both Normal and Heroic should be 2 healed.
    This guy pretty much got all the main point down, and be sure thats your group is wiping the stacks of debuffs.

  5. #5
    From experience, most groups that still struggle with normalmodes simply lack at getting out the appropriate damage/healing. Force them to read a guide about their class and make sure they use what they read, e.g. reforging, enchanting etc. Furthermore, make sure everyone does his rotation right, compare your logs with others and tell those who seem to do something wrong that they should practise more. In my opinion, it doesn't make sense to tell you specific stuff about Elegon as you most likely know them already and they're not very complex anyway. So in general oversee whether everyone's playing his class properly, which isn't the case right now.

  6. #6
    you doing 20% of the damage on spirit kings is just sad.. You need to sit down with your guild and discuss what they want out of raiding.. If they are happy with casually killing a couple of normals and just eventually hoping to kill more with enough gear then that's that.. if they want to progress, they need to be the ones posting on the forums trying to figure out what they can do to imrpove..

    I dunnu much about monks.. but your moonkin is just not following the right rotation at all.. On kings his two highest damaging abilities were his dots.. and that's ironic since he doesn't even have optimal uptime on his dots.. Even while not keeping up dots all the time, they're still the highest damage for him.. talking about tyg, since you mentioned he usually dpses elegon.. Moonkins do amazing on that fight..

    If you want him to stay heals then it doesn't matter but if he is your off spec switcher then he needs to change things up.. lemme know if he is going to be dpsing more often then i'll give a few pointers.. Even as a healer though, he should try to have slightly higher uptime on harmony and he's not even using his cooldowns properly.. Both incarnation and nature's vigil are 3 min cd's and he can easily use them in the first phase or the first add transition phase to balance out healing since they'll be up again for the end.. same with tranq.. people get low sometimes when the protector explodes.. If he's not a 'cooldown' type player, then he might as well go with heart of the wild since that is a static intellect gain.. will provide overall healing boost as opposed to an oh shit cooldown.. Should respec according to the fight obviously but if he goes HoTW for elegon, on a 6 min cd he can actually do some solid dps for 45 secs.. So that extra damage would help out.. in the beginning atleast.. Although optimal usage of vigil would be better..

    But yea, all the dps need to find their min/max buttons and stomp on it.. That pug spriest was actually destroying everyone else on those elegon attempts.. recruit him lol.. With the gear you guys have no one should be below 100k..

    And you should consider going frost.. Since you seem like you know your stuff, if you play frost that'll boost you up significantly.. Frost is about ~6k dps ahead of unholy and without pet micro management, in actuality it's even higher..

    Mechanic wise, the protector tank shouldn't be standing outside waiting for the add to spawn.. that is just silly.. why would you do that.. It's just wasted damage.. Both tanks hop on to elegon, pew pew hard.. then tank 2 taunts the protector as it spawns.. (timers make that easy) And make sure to tell your dps to wait a second or two to let the tank get aggro.. and as soon as it dies jump right back on elegon.. Make sure everyone is resetting before annihilation.. And dunnu if you and the other tanks are doing it already (from your armories i take it not, if they are relevant to elegon) but go with the pestilence glyph.. both of you.. and obv have to keep dot uptime to a maximum and as soon as the orbs spawn, hit pestilence and both your vengeance buffed dots will be on all the orbs.. that's a massive chunk of damage right there.. you could even get away with killing 5 orbs each time for a 12 stack total..

    And then for the pillars, yea what the poster above said, get everyone to bring them to 10% roughly and then stop.. assign one person on each side to call out when all the pillars are at 10%, that's when you burn them down.. That'll significantly reduce the amount of adds that spawn, reducing deaths.. And get everyone to stack on the console, the elegon tank can drop a dnd first and then book it to elegon, and then you drop yours once they're all aiming for him and then remorseless.. the dps dk can hit his remorsless right after and the adds shouldn't be an issue.. After that yea just burn elegon so you only get 3 adds but the 4th one isn't necessarily game over.. if you can kill 5 orbs each time you should be fine..

  7. #7
    Just a few comments about the (non-pug) windwalker, Leikai.

    According to armory, they're gemming haste and have quite a lot of haste for a post 5.1 windwalker. They should gem agility instead. Gemming haste is suboptimal no matter what their haste is, but having a lot already makes gemming haste even worse.

    Looking at their chi gains and expenditures, I count 1132 chi gained and 798 chi spent assuming no combo breaker procs were wasted. Assuming that every single proc is wasted (which is pretty much impossible) then you get 1139 chi spent. So they are wasting a huge amount of chi, most likely because they are resource capping (due at least in part due to the high haste) and erroneously prioritizing spending energy over not wasting chi.

    If you get them to replace their haste gems with agility and focus on never wasting chi (don't jab when chi is capped or when chi is one away from cap, even if that means capping energy) then I think they would get a pretty substantial improvement from that alone.

    Some other (probably less important) additional issues:

    Fists of Fury should be used a lot more.
    Touch of Karma should be used when it will actually do damage (i.e. when you are about to receive damage, and while targetting something that will not die immediately), somehow they managed to get only 633906 damage out of 16 ToK uses.
    When at low health, use Expel Harm on cooldown replacing a jab (Leikai did not expel harm at all).
    Leg Sweep works great to stun the adds. Ironically they did have it talented and seem to have accidentally used it twice on Elegon and once on a pillar, but never on the adds.
    Last edited by Audax; 2012-12-24 at 01:24 PM.

  8. #8
    First thing which i see when looking into armories - ur guildies are cheap on weapon enchants - and when 1 dancing steel or 1 jade spirit makes not too much diffrenece - when whole team is not using those enchants at all it is rather big difference in the whole team dps/hps output - im not telling to enchant blue quality weapons with them - but purples should be enchanted with best enchants that are- especially monk who will have double proc - use ur guild bank resources and help people with obtaining them if they cant get them by themselves. There are also few people who still have unupgraded HC dungone gear pieces - and since its been some time since 5.1 release - this means they dont put too much effort into their chars.
    Other thing is whether u may think that latency is not that big issue it is - especially when people are 2 healing figths - u cant afford urself to loose any dps on this figth - and if a dps screws up with something - healer has to do anything to save his ass -_- and when healer is lagging - she cant save him and he goes down - therefore u will be missing enough dps to beat the encounter.
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2012-12-24 at 07:47 PM.

  9. #9
    The one thing I noticed that's very troubling is the sheer amount of, for lack of a better word, careless deaths. On your Spirit Kings kill alone, you had 4 deaths, all of which could be prevented by being aware of mechanics. Three of those deaths were from getting hit by Flanking Orders, a guaranteed one-shot, so it wouldn't matter how much health they had beforehand. Those statues move SO slowly; if your raid members can't move out of that, I can only imagine how many will die to Attentuation or tornadoes...
    The fourth death, though not to Flanking Orders, was mostly your pally's fault. Cowardice hurts; he did 492k damage to himself through that in 17 seconds, the last 150k of which happened in a 3-second burst. As much as I'd like to blame the healers for not healing him enough - he was pretty low for an extended period of time, in my book - knowing how this mechanic works is crucial for DPS to understand. On our first kill, our ele shaman popped Ascendence right as Cowardice went out and demolished himself. He learned, and so should your pally.
    I wish this was the end of your problems, but the list goes on: two people dying on Stone Guard to blowing up Cobalt Mines when the corresponding reduction wasn't up... your shaman killed three people on Feng with Arcane Velocity by not being spread out enough... And those are just deaths I thought I should point out on your kills.

    My point here is this: regardless of DPS (which needs to go up in order to kill Elegon), individuals have to be more raid-aware. If you, as a raid leader, want your guild to progress, then careless mistakes like the ones I've mentioned above cannot happen. Especially when it comes to Elegon, every DPS needs to be alive going into vortex phase at the end if you're going to net a kill. Deaths, like your monk's on the longest attempt where he died to the protector's explosion, could be easily avoided by having no stacks of the platform debuff. If you want your guild to progress past this point, being raid-aware is the best advice I can give. Mogu'shan Vaults is just the beginning; it's only gonna get more technical from here on out.

    Best of luck in your future endeavors!

  10. #10
    High Overlord
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    Thank you very much for the replies, there has been a lot that has been helpful and I'm grateful for the insight given. I'll give bullet replies since it would take way too long and too much space to do full length replies to each post

    Before that, a couple of points to make. The team we have now is about 50% of the raid team that we had in dragon soul. Our team in dragon soul actually advanced far enough to be ranked 5th on our realm despite raiding 2 nights a week. However, this was under a different raid leader and with our (former) guild leader present. There was a different atmosphere in dragonsoul compared to t14, we were much more serious, but to the point of being too serious. Sometimes raiding wasn't fun, and it essentially got to the point where some of our team just didn't want to raid anymore and didn't bother to come online. That essentially killed our raid team. I've had to take over being both raid leader and guild leader and I'm still trying to find a balance. Everyone comments on how much more easygoing the raids are going and that it feels like a better envrionment, but I'm also getting unhappy people concerned with the performances of the other members. So me personally, I'm going to have to ramp up my own seriousness a notch, I just have to find a balance to not go to dragon soul levels. We're missing a phenomenal dps in our old raid leader, and our guild leader was our main healer who was able to organise the healers and knew exactly when to call out for specific raid heals. We're still working out the kinks in our own team, but I hope we'll have them fixed soon.

    Okay, bulletpoints

    - Protector deaths are something I think we have sorted - I call out everytime to let me get aggro - new tanks will be told to do the same
    - Cosmic spawns are the same. They caused us trouble until we changed our strategy. I believe we have this nailed for future attempts.
    - We did not time pillar deaths, we shall do so in the future. Thanks for this being pointed out
    - I'm happy for the most part with our ranged dps, I'm aware of changes they can make to improve, particularly our main shadow priest. The warlock was a pug, the melee (not counting myself to be blunt) have to get their shit together - particularly our monk
    - all our ranged and the add tank do stack at the console
    - We do 2 heal the fight
    - the spirit kings fight where I did 20% of the total damage pissed me off immensely as I still followed the mechanics as well as calling everything out (including every interrupt and which person was to do them). I bluntly told me team it wasn't good enough. I might need to adopt this attitude more often. I outbeat our second placed damage dealer by 20k. The next week the difference was much smaller
    - Our boomkin was originally a feral cat. He knew we need ranged, so he switched to boomkin since it shares gear with his main heal spec. I never paid his damage too much attention since he usually only switches for 1-2 fights (he alternates with the heal monk for spirit kings). Thank you for bringing these points to my attention, I'll make sure to get them to him. He's a very good player, he's just brand new to boomkin.
    - I'm not a min/maxer. I prefer unholy to frost but I am aware that frost performs better. I'd rather my raiders increase their own dps by 6k or more than myself doing so
    - The protector tank standing outside was dumb and I'm annoyed that we didn't stop doing that. We initially started doing it just so we could perfect our opening strategy since things were chaotic on our very first couple of attempts. Will fix this for future attempts
    - Pestilence glyph would be nice, but we have the 4 waves of orbs pretty nailed now. In our last few attempts, we always got 4 sets of orbs down. The dps shouldn't be dependant on the tanks for help.
    - Thank you very much for the monk pointers. I'll absolutely tell him all the points raised. I've told him before to use fof more often, so I'm not happy that he hasn't been doing so. I planned on having a serious chat with him over the holidays since he is our biggest liability right now. Using a stun on a pillar or the boss is pretty ridiculous.
    - Our guild never had access to guild funds initially since we had an inactive guild leader to kick. We've also had players switching roles (monk healer was previously a shaman, the monk was on an (underperforming - go figure - rogue) and the off tank who I dropped was previously a warrior dps). All this role switching has annoyed me and now that I do have access to funds, I'm hesitant to spend it on players who might change roles to better suit the raid. An example would be buying the dmf agi trinket for our monk who at the time played on his rogue. If I'd have done that, I would have wasted a lot of money. For our capable dps who I know will not switch, I will definitely look into weapon enchants. It's just something that wasn't on my mind.
    - Our laggy healer is putting out sufficient heals for now. She has never been the cause of a death on elegon, that's down to individual player mistakes. If I ever feel her latency is an issue, I'd look into replacing her (something she's mentioned herself already). I understand the point of a dps dieing being critical to the raid however.
    - I'll look into player gear over the holidays. We've been looking at crafting gear for those performing properly. We crafted a chest for malanek. I was hesitant to craft 496 gloves to replace my blue gloves (despite it being a massive upgrade for the ~blunt~ top dps we have) since as a new leader, I worry about behind my back chatter about being greedy/selfish. After discussions with officers, I decided that was an inappropriate mentality to have. Whatever is best for the raid is what needs to be done and if people are unhappy, that's their own issue. The gloves were crafted this afternoon and more crafting shall be done for those that need it
    - With a full raid team, we usually avoid careless deaths for fights we are comfortable with. We've had a lot of pugs the last month that has been an issue. The paladin has been dropped from our team at this point. We're aware of what needs to be done and when, careless deaths are just that - people being careless. If such a death occurs with a full raid team, I will be more strict about it. Most of our raiders do know their shit - not to brag (because i really don't consider it that much of an achievement), but as stated, our guild did make it to fifth on the server for dragon soul which includes the laggy heal shaman and the underperforming monk playing on his rogue. I'll ramp up the seriousness now for more individual awareness, I'll just try not to overdo it

    Thank you once again for all of the help, I appreciate it quite a lot and it will help us out moving forwards. An extra thank you to anyone who actually read everything that I had to type up.

  11. #11
    You may have already rectified this but with 2 dps dks and a warlock you should have no trouble whatsoever with the orbs on elegon, have both dks glyph pestilence to spread diseases as they spawn, your warlock could go affliction, talent mannoroth's fury and spam SB SoC as the orbs spawn, the spread DoTs from both classes will be buffed by the stacks on elegon and the orbs will melt.

    As for the protectors, get your melee on them, if they run to the edge with each add it will time well with resetting stacks.

    You should be looking at 2 protectors max spawning in p1 and 5+ stacks on the boss per orb phase to beat the enrage.

    Here is my guilds log from this week so you can see the potential DKs have on the orbs (go to damage by actor)
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6...?s=9212&e=9656

    Best of luck!
    Last edited by Bunnys; 2012-12-25 at 02:58 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by AndyF1069 View Post
    Thank you very much for the monk pointers. I'll absolutely tell him all the points raised. I've told him before to use fof more often, so I'm not happy that he hasn't been doing so. I planned on having a serious chat with him over the holidays since he is our biggest liability right now. Using a stun on a pillar or the boss is pretty ridiculous.

    ...

    monk was on an (underperforming - go figure - rogue)
    You're welcome, but before you get too upset with him, I would like to point out that the mistakes I noticed do seem to be fairly understandable.

    I figure he probably started off with a mistaken impression that haste was strong enough to be worth gemming pure haste over agility. Given this, he gems haste instead of agility (damage loss) and ends up overflowing with resources. I haven't played a max level rogue, but I think on rogues capping energy is generally worse than wasting combo points, so since he used to be a rogue he probably thinks the same about monks, and wastes chi (more damage loss). FoF is a strong damage boost since 5.1, but before then it wasn't that great a boost for its difficulty of use (it was bugged). Also, it's best not to use FoF at high energy (when it will result in energy capping) and since he has so much haste (from gemming it) he's probably sitting at high energy a lot. So, he ends up not using it (more damage loss).

    As to using stuns on the boss, he probably knows that won't work, but is hitting the wrong button by mistake. I just remarked on those uses since it means he had the talent and probably had it hotkeyed, but just didn't think of using it on the adds.

  13. #13
    High Overlord
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    Oh don't worry, I'm not going to tear him a new one or anything. Since I was giving short(ish) replies to points, I didn't go into full details. I'll simply tell him to be careful with his resources since expending chi is more important than spending energy (although energy is still important and I'll emphasise that) and he needs to try to adjust from the rogue mentality, to look into changing his gems, to try to get the hang of fof and to practice the ideal circumstances to use it without dropping buffs or capping energy and to move his leg sweep on his bars to stop the accidental pushing. A stun should be a planned button to push, not a panic keyboard smash button.
    Last edited by AndyF1069; 2012-12-25 at 03:26 AM.

  14. #14
    It's probably been said here but I'm just going to say it here in a short post. (Even though this particular mechanic was nerfed in the latest hotfix I think)

    For every Focus (pillar) you kill in the add transition phase, Elegon gets a Haste buff. This is why the meta achievement for this fight, Straight Six, is the ideal way to do this. Make sure each Focus is going down at approximately the same rate.

  15. #15
    Half of your raiders are missing enchants somewhere (few of them on their weapons, which is kind of a big deal), majority of them hasn't gotten any VP items (they should be completly decked in them by now, we're months into this tier), and even the "free" 489's from klaxxi and golden lotus are only on very few of your members.
    Generally, tell them to put in more effort. You can't force them to do something they don't want to do, so tell them that if they really don't want to kill bosses, feel free to keep slacking, but the rest of the raid would like to, and they're shitting all over the people who DO put in effort.

  16. #16
    To be honest if your best attempt was 35% with one min left on the berserk timer then you are on track for a kill numbers wise. It's mechanics thats killing you. The boss just melts that last phase, probably faster than a % a second.

    Theres a lot of good tips here about dps, rotations and general tactics for the boss so I'll refrain from commenting there.

    I think you need to give them a lecture / peptalk on "attitude". 2 important things:
    Raid awareness!! Stop stupid and unneeded deaths (ranged getting hit by elegons breath f.ex). Mastering mechanics leads to boss kills. Sure dps matters but mechanics trump numbers. Instill that in your raid.
    Be the best you can be!!! Have every slot gemmed and enchanted. Just armory them with /advanced at the end and it does an audit type thingy that says whats missing.

    You sound like you care which is great and you know your team. Push them to get a bit more out of them. Don't overdo it though, its a fine line between amazing leader and irritating bastard :P

  17. #17
    since the moonkin is your off spec switcher then it'll def help for him to do better.. especially since he dpses elegon..

    Symbiosis a dk for ams (great for survivability on that fight), make sure to throw rejuvs out during the spark phase to help out the healers or any other time..

    For the actual moonkin part, the opening rotation should be followed always without exception since it is no effort to do so.. Before the pull while ppl are getting buffed, astral communion to solar, then hit it again to go back to 0.. then one last time, but stop at 75 energy to lunar. Don't hit lunar. Now, once they've positioned themselves on the edge where they can jump to reset:
    Prepot
    Starfall
    Wrath (hit lunar eclipse)
    Pop Nature's Vigil and Incarnation (Both can and should be macroed together)
    Moonfire then Sunfire
    Starsurge
    Starfire
    Starfall again (Cd is refreshed when you hit lunar and it's already up before the pull)
    Starfire to 0 energy (Using SS procs whenever they pop)
    As soon as he hits 0 energy pop Celestial Alignment
    Hit Moonfire (Both dots will be applied by just hitting moonfire cuz of CA)
    Starfire
    Starfall again (cd refreshed cuz of CA.. so pretty much 30 seconds straight of 3 chained starfalls) [But always make sure to let them run their full duration (10s), have him get an addon to track them)
    Spam Starfire only until 1 sec left on CA, then refresh dots by hitting moonfire again. (If there are only 2 secs left on CA and the cast time of starfire is 2 secs or more, then refresh at secs.. dots have to be refreshed)
    After that follow normal rotation, don't overwrite the buffed CA dots when solar hits, let them run out and then refresh. After that clip them when they have 1 sec left. Can clip earlier if multiple trinkets proc etc..
    Use starfall on cd.. use SS procs on cd, cast SS on cd except during orb phase.. save the procs for the orbs..
    He can use his cd's in the opener, then again for the second protector phase and then they'll be up again for the last burn.

    That's it for rotation.. tell him to get needtoknow and track his dots through it. Maximize uptime. Can also track trinket procs/buffs/debuffs/Internal cd's on trinks etc..

    Gems are fine as long as he only uses his healer gear. If he has a separate set of moonkin gear, then gem straight crit on those pieces. But even with all healer gear, he can still reforge for every fight.. Especially for elegon since it's progression for you guys.. It doesn't cost a lot. Help him out with the gbank if you have to.. Reforge for the hit cap, and after that crit>haste>mastery.. Maximize crit after hit cap..

    As far as pestilence goes, why would you not do it ? There is no downside to it whatsoever. Absolutely none. Just upsides. And as I mentioned if your guild can kill 4 orbs 'comfortably', then you might as well go for the 5th. Since that is an extra 10% damage to the boss during second protector phase, increasing the chances for pushing after only 3 adds.. And a total of 20% extra for the final burn. There is no rule out there saying KILL ONLY FOUR. I mean why would you not go for it if you can ? All three DK's hitting pestilence and spreading to the orbs is just way too much damage to ignore and keep in mind, the quicker the orbs die, the more uptime you have on the boss. You want to get him as low as possible for the second phase.. So, glyph pestilence and get the others to do so as well. And get everyone to drop a DnD on the boss as well since the orbs take a couple ticks. The warlock can throw a soul burn seed of corruption on the boss as well right before the orbs spawn and when it explodes, corruption will be ticking on all the orbs. If he can time that right, you guys can easily get 5 orbs which can possibly net you a kill.

  18. #18
    ur best bet is to first have the dps learn the encounters well enough to know why they died and what it was from. possibly have them run lfr and identify what attacks will probably kill them.. then use that knowledge to apply it to normal mode.. granted nothing in lfr really kills aside from being really stupid (like falling deaths on elegon) or jumping through the lightning beams that conducts have.. but it all helps.. Elegon is hard enough without having to stress your healers.. especially if one lags she/he is working twice as hard for no gain. the fact that u have 3 melee is very scary.. hopefully u can also pickup gear to make some of them ranged as it may better suit some future boss encounters. and have most of the dps research their class as suggested above. its fun being casual but if u guys are spending 3 nights in a week on msv... theres something wrong..... im glad you wish to fix it.

    for the deaths you may want to get Fatality.. it screams out how they died and why.. although some people find it annoying.

  19. #19
    What you are asking is a lot of work and I'm sure between all the posts everything will eventually be covered. As for myself, I will try and discuss Leikai's dps.

    I went with a log of secure kills as it's generally easier to find full relevent segments for dps (whilst it's far easier to evalute healers on 1-10% wipes on certain bosses). Sadly in your 4 secure kills (11/12 log) she died early for her own mistake on stone guards, she died probably to healers fault during feng and gara'jal is irrelevent unless SHE was logging which I believe isn't the case. Thus, the analysis will be mostly on how bad she did on the spirit kings encounter/log.

    The kill lasted 8m32 and for melee dps, this is almost a tank and spank encounter

    1. She is Chi capping (read wasting) a LOT. Disregarding SCK/FoF chi concerns which more or less balance themselves out for that encounter, she generated 284 chi through Jabs yet only spent 232. This is a major dps waste. This is fairly easy to improve uppon. The best bet is to help her find a mod which will display her current Chi at a better place in her UI such that it doesn't "cost positionning awareness" for her to keep track.

    *(after buff uptime analysis)On top of that, all 36 TP used we're mastery procs ( free) and the same was true for 32 BoK. Thus she wasted not only the 52 chi you can easily see from the first sentence but an actual 90 more from what was free via mastery proc.

    2. The number of RSK was way suboptimal. This should pretty much be used on CD of 8s. Thus on a 8min32 encounter the total count should come close to 64 whereas the log counts 34. Odds are she even let the debuff wear off on the boss(es) at certain points in time, missing a 15% damage debuff...

    3. Tiger Palm's buff uptime is only of 82.4%. Funny enough, her TP use accounts for exactly her TP(free) mastery buffs. In other words, she doesn't keep track of the buff at all she only uses the skill when it's free. I suggest a mod like powerauras or weakauras to keep track of the buff. It is also possible to macro a 20s clock timer (with the in-game built timer) to help keep track of the buff.

    4. Tiger's Eye Brew. Well I figured I'm bashing but I want to go ahead and say she appears to do proper useage of this. She built ~58 stacks worth and used it 6 times which is quite good so it's really a matter of spending chi (see 1.) properly to generate more stacks.

    5. Windsong - I notice both her weapons are enchanted with windsong while looking at the buff uptime log. Yet her current weapons will last her for a quite long time. I strongly recommend getting the agi proc (forget the name) that costs 10 sha crystal. It will last her long enough to be worth the investment. Similar reasonning can be used to have her purchase, at least, a relic of Xuen(agi)

    6. GCD useage. Since monks' GCD is 1.0s baseline, it is fairly easy (not haste factored) to see if she pushes her buttons "hard 'nough". Quick count says she spent 294s worth in spell useage. Yet the encounter lasted 512s. This is generally a major lack of skill issue and is quite hard to teach...I wouldve understood something in the 425-450s worth since she probably doesn't have enough haste in her current gear state to be fully gcd capped but the difference is just beyond awful. I don't know how you can bring that up to her without creating major drama so you may want to just refer her to reading this post.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Deau View Post
    all 36 TP used we're mastery procs ( free) and the same was true for 32 BoK.
    Deau, I would really like a quick and easy way to check how many combo breaker procs were used and how many were wasted from looking at WoL. It sounds like you think you have one, but you seem to be saying that no procs were wasted and if I check the log browser, I see instances of both types of procs being refreshed (and hence wasted). I also see instances of tiger palm procs seeming to last a full 15 seconds, and hence wasted unless they were used at the last moment:

    [19:23:35.187] Leikai gains Combo Breaker: Tiger Palm from Leikai
    [19:23:50.171] Leikai's Combo Breaker: Tiger Palm fades from Leikai

    [19:27:03.593] Leikai gains Combo Breaker: Tiger Palm from Leikai
    [19:27:18.578] Leikai's Combo Breaker: Tiger Palm fades from Leikai

    and even a blackout kick proc lasting full duration:

    [19:23:36.171] Leikai gains Combo Breaker: Blackout Kick from Leikai
    [19:23:51.171] Leikai's Combo Breaker: Blackout Kick fades from Leikai

    Maybe he was distracted by something at that point, he was autoattacking during the whole time of the buff and did some jabs, but no other abilities.

    I'm not a big fan of using gcd count to judge windwalkers in general, since it's not optimal to have enough haste to use all gcds all the time (you have to waste a lot of resources most of the time to be able to fill all gcds at the most resource-poor times). However, in this case it's relevant since the large amount of spare gcds disproves my theory that the chi capping is simply a matter of prioritizing energy over chi.

    (In my previous comments I only looked at the Elegon wipes and didn't check anything related to total time.)

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