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  1. #341
    Dreadlord Spray's Avatar
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    To me, there are many speculations from you, guys, which actually can be linked with each other, at least imho.

    Someone pointed out his resemblance to the Kologarn. Now, who exactly was Kologarn? A Titan? Naaah. A Titan construct? Yep. And he was, as greatly explained up here by Netherspark - a Titan construct designed to guard something, a Keeper. Kologarn's duty was to protect Antechamber from the trespassers. Now, was Thorim a Keeper as well? Along with Mimiron/Freya/Tyr/Hodir? Yes, but they were specific Keepers, with a way greater purpose. They were meant to keep Yogg-Saron in imprisonment. But they were still Keepers, so Watchers are Keepers (Watchers, not watchers, the difference is in a big letter... "Watchers" are THE Watchers, specific group of titanic watchers, aka Keepers) aren't really interchangeable.

    Now, we somehow determined that big, clearly defensive Titan constructs are called Keepers and are deployed in order to guard certain places and secrets in it.

    We have Kologarn, guarding the heart of Ulduar.
    Then we have Auriaya, presumably given the similar task.
    We have Archaedas, being the ultimate guard of Uldaman, protecting the Discs of Norgannon.

    So, this leads to the logical assumption - Titans never leave anything important without a powerful watcher/Keeper.
    Engine of Nalak'sha is one of definitely important things, right?
    And of course, of course, you could say "well, you know, buddy, but.. hey, we have, like, Elegon, you know..?"
    Of course we have! But isn't he a little not-Titanic? He's celestial and all, but his shape... Resembles the land, but wouldn't Titans rather have someone of their own kind? Like Ra-Den?

    For me, he was appointed as a guardian of the Engine of Nalak'sha. Now, there are several speculations about the Mogu contribution in all of that.
    - were they originally meant as a Titan artificial race, Earthen alike?
    - did they just marched in, seized the power of the vaults, defeated and imprisoned Ra-Den, seeking his wisdom, and finally appointed one of the native beasts, enhancing it in the process to become Elegon?

    No matter how they actually accomplished being in charge of the Engine, it looks like Ra-Den is its former watcher, both from model and the general "feel".
    Now, why is he bleeding? Stones do not normally bleed, right?
    Mogu are known for their savagery and lust for torturing (*ekhm* Krasarang *ekhm*), they just encountered someone otherwordly, Ra-den is a fascinating subject for them... Assuming they're either connected to the Old God itself (speculation), or just familiar with Curse of Flesh, having normal bodies before (another speculation), they COULD have a way to "play" with it, make him suffer in order to getting information. Sounds Mogu-ish to me.

    Final thought, as for the last boss. Someone asked: if Lei Shi is such powerful and et cetera, why would the defeated, weakened, and presumably imprisoned Titanic watcher be a heroic-only boss? The truth is, we don't even know the type of the fight. Someone mentioned it could resemble Valithria..
    Gathering his blood in a timely manner in order to him regaining his strength and retaking the vaults and the Engine? WHY NOT.

    Possibilities are endless, they just don't differ from each other, as some of you thought. They all can be very well true and still connect to the others in some way.

    Keep up the good work, guys, it's amazing!
    Last edited by Spray; 2013-01-10 at 06:49 PM.

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    I see three options there, Ra-Den fight will be:
    1) like Vaelastrasz's fight
    2) like Valithria fight
    3) ???
    I really into ??? option, because 1 and 2 already used



    More like they will recruit us to fight corrupted Sargeras
    Number 3 would be a Tsulong fight i supose, and i believe this will be a number 4 with strong resemblance to #2.
    On other line of thinking: Why give a name to the "titan" the dude instead of just a title? Why do THEY (the mogu) name it? Becouse.. Ra Den is no titan name at all... Why? I think becouse they never actually talked to him (so they do not know his actual name), he was already defeated/beaten or whatever when Lei Shen found him.

  3. #343
    The Patient
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    As to the wounds all across his body...it is stated in the Divine Bell lore that it was created out of the "maker's flesh", and, what a surprise, there is an imprisoned titan beneath the Throne of Thunder, and he has cuts all over, bleeding and missing parts of his flesh...so there you have it, the source of the Divine Bell, and probably other dark Mogu experiment stuff that's to be revealed in 5.2.

    My guess is that the Divine Bell was only one experiment for which they used the Titan's flesh (combined with Sha energies), and there will be more revealed -- just have a look at some of the new models that have been datamined....Animus, Saurok, etc. -- maybe this Titan is even the source of the Saurok as well (used by the Mogu to create them, not created them himself), as I can hardly imagine that the Titans would bestow any of their own unique powers such as creating new races upon some of their own creations; and the Saurok, FLESH-shaped, not stone-shaped, are therefore a cruel way of the Mogu to get back at their own creators (if they are acting on their own, which i pretty much presume as the other Titans wouldn't allow their creations to use and torture one of their own if the Mogu were still under the Titans' command and rule!)
    Still amazes me every single time how people are capable of mixing up the same words over and over again. There; Their; They're - Know; No; Now - Have; Of \\\\ ...coincidence? on purpose? saving letters/typing time? or some small creatures living in the internet, spending their time messing up entries? It will forever be an enigma...

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Malakh View Post
    As to the wounds all across his body...it is stated in the Divine Bell lore that it was created out of the "maker's flesh", and, what a surprise, there is an imprisoned titan beneath the Throne of Thunder, and he has cuts all over, bleeding and missing parts of his flesh...so there you have it, the source of the Divine Bell, and probably other dark Mogu experiment stuff that's to be revealed in 5.2.

    My guess is that the Divine Bell was only one experiment for which they used the Titan's flesh (combined with Sha energies), and there will be more revealed -- just have a look at some of the new models that have been datamined....Animus, Saurok, etc. -- maybe this Titan is even the source of the Saurok as well (used by the Mogu to create them, not created them himself), as I can hardly imagine that the Titans would bestow any of their own unique powers such as creating new races upon some of their own creations; and the Saurok, FLESH-shaped, not stone-shaped, are therefore a cruel way of the Mogu to get back at their own creators (if they are acting on their own, which i pretty much presume as the other Titans wouldn't allow their creations to use and torture one of their own if the Mogu were still under the Titans' command and rule!)
    Very good post! I would go as far to say that you probably nailed it. Maybe it is not quite so much speculation!

  5. #345

  6. #346
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kagonos View Post


    Anyone else see a Ra-Den in here? Cuz I do...

    An image of the pantheon (with uncorrupted Sargeras) from the new "Warcraft Saga" comic. (Copied from the Summary line of the wowpedia entry.)
    That would be Golganneth, The Thunderer Son of Aman'thul and Eonar. Creator of the skies and the seas. Father of the sea giants.


    edit: put each known titan name next to the picture closest to description. Might be wrong as it is an educated guess but still a guess.

    Last edited by Gothicshark; 2013-01-17 at 09:24 PM.

  7. #347
    I don't know what to say about Ra-Den being a titan construct, to me it seems it should be something more powerful than that..
    There is also something about the wounds he has, he probably is pretty large and the wounds look like they were made by something equally large (like a large sword) this leads me to assume that during the fight of the Titans and Old Gods there were casualties also on the titans side, one of the titans could have been corrupted by the old gods and he turned against the other titans- this would explain the sword-like wounds on his body and what looks like flesh might be the corruption signs of the Old Gods, although they gravely wounded their titan brother , they could not bring themselves to kill one of their own, so they left him on Azeroth and had all mentions of him deleted from history.
    Also the Divine Bell mentions that it is made from flesh of the Makers, a maker would be a titan not a titan construct.
    As how the Thunder King got control over the titan , my guess is he found it in a dormant state and took the heart out of his open chest, gaining the knowledge on how to use the titan technology , controlling and harnessing the energies of the titan.
    Last edited by burgertank; 2013-01-21 at 10:11 AM.

  8. #348
    High Overlord Pippo89's Avatar
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    Ra-Den's Voice is up on youtube. Cannot post the link as I'm at work right now

    ***Spoiler***
    He's greeting the raid ironically, stating if we are thinking that we are his saviours, and we're so wrong about it. (...)
    The world's corruption cannot be stopped, except with destruction (Algalon everybody?) (...).
    Interestingly, he is not killed. Instead, he surrenders and grants us a chance to help the world in our way. He says he's not believing we'll make it, but we've earned the chance to try.

    (...) are some lines which I do not remember yet.

    Sounds very cool! I'm glad he isn't simply killed off and Ra-Den has kept some sanity.
    The roots of evil are deep. Irreversibly so in the hearts of men.

  9. #349
    The Lightbringer Kathranis's Avatar
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    Ra-Den is outright called a Titanic Watcher in both audio dialogue and in-game text. Just like Thorim, Freya, and the others from Ulduar, or Ammunae, Setesh, etc. in Uldum.

    He's not a Titan, he was created by them to watch over something in Pandaria.

    It's also now been confirmed that the mogu were originally Titanic constructs as well, used as an army. They worshipped Ra-Den as a god, until Lei Shen ripped out his heart and imprisoned him.

    Early (now incorrect) statements from Kosak and in quests which indicated that the mogu evolved from the waters of the Vale are either retconned or (perhaps) lies perpetuated by the mogu empire to remove references to the Titans from their history.
    Last edited by Kathranis; 2013-01-21 at 11:29 AM.

  10. #350
    Stood in the Fire Vashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pippo89 View Post
    Ra-Den's Voice is up on youtube. Cannot post the link as I'm at work right now

    ***Spoiler***
    He's greeting the raid ironically, stating if we are thinking that we are his saviours, and we're so wrong about it. (...)
    The world's corruption cannot be stopped, except with destruction (Algalon everybody?) (...).
    Interestingly, he is not killed. Instead, he surrenders and grants us a chance to help the world in our way. He says he's not believing we'll make it, but we've earned the chance to try.

    (...) are some lines which I do not remember yet.

    Sounds very cool! I'm glad he isn't simply killed off and Ra-Den has kept some sanity.
    I would so love to fight be like mending him and helping him to fight some bad stuff instead of killing him ( mending him at the end ). To be it like Valithria.

  11. #351

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Spray View Post
    So, this leads to the logical assumption - Titans never leave anything important without a powerful watcher/Keeper.
    Engine of Nalak'sha is one of definitely important things, right?
    And of course, of course, you could say "well, you know, buddy, but.. hey, we have, like, Elegon, you know..?"
    Of course we have! But isn't he a little not-Titanic? He's celestial and all, but his shape... Resembles the land, but wouldn't Titans rather have someone of their own kind? Like Ra-Den?

    For me, he was appointed as a guardian of the Engine of Nalak'sha. Now, there are several speculations about the Mogu contribution in all of that.
    - were they originally meant as a Titan artificial race, Earthen alike?
    - did they just marched in, seized the power of the vaults, defeated and imprisoned Ra-Den, seeking his wisdom, and finally appointed one of the native beasts, enhancing it in the process to become Elegon?

    No matter how they actually accomplished being in charge of the Engine, it looks like Ra-Den is its former watcher, both from model and the general "feel".
    Now while I think this would be an amazing twist it's written in the PTR right now as not being true, Elegon is indeed the guardian of Nalak'sha.
    It is stated in one of the new lore achievements (there is a topic I started on this that shows all the lore bits/cinematics from lorewalker cho) and it describes how Lei Shen went to the place where Ra-Den dwelled, a thundering mountain range that few ever dared to dwell, and when he returned he had control over wind and storm. After such, Lei Shen built a great city upon the top of the mountain that he had gone to (Throne of Thunder). Later on it reads that the sea's had swallowed much of what made the mountains so great, and it now only sits as a island in the sea, much like Pandaria.

    So first off this alone shows that Pandaria used to be much MUCH larger, having land mass between the Isle of Giants, Isle of Thunder, and the northern shores of Pandaria. Lei Shen travelled there by land to the great mountains, and built the city for himself/the mogu. It also states that once he died the mountain was plauged by vicious storms/lightning constantly, the natives of Pandaria looked at it in awe and fear and never approached it. All the more reason for them not to now as the mountain range became an island.
    Also this shows that Ra-Den was never in charge of Nalak'sha, so it makes more sense that the "celestial" construct Elegon is instead. The more you read/watch into the lore given in these it also shows that the Mogu were once a race of stone, who once the curse of flesh took hold they tried constantly to find a way to return to stone and they succeeded in finding a way to do so. This gives them more then enough willpower/intelligence/drive to have been the founders of what we know as cloud serpents now.

    Lei Shen is also written to have found his mount (Nalak) at the mountain, and once Lei Shen had died Nalak stayed by his citadel and was never seen again (until now in 5.2). Maybe thundering cloud serpents were some of the first cloud serpents, and eventually lead to the normal one's, but all had the common ancestor in Elegon due to the design being laid out for them there. I would argue they didnt directly create them, but maybe Lei Shen created them as a way to provide the power Nalak gave him across the skys to his subjects (although a lesser portion of it hence why they are not thundering).

    This thread is crazy amazing and the things people are coming up with is great. Look into the lore bits though ! They add great views onto things we until now were only able to speculate on.

  13. #353
    He seems to be a Virmen.

  14. #354
    youtube.com/watch?v=803VXl-ybC0

    This seems to be the real deal

  15. #355
    Seems like his references are directed at the old golds. What a surprise...

    Despite the fact I like old god lore, I don't hink Blizzard will make it any more interesting than C'Thun and Yogg'Saron ingame lore. Which is piss poor.

  16. #356
    Ra-den is referred to as a "Titan Keeper" in the Wrathion audio. That he was sent here along with the Mogu (titan constructs) beyond that the info get's sketchy. There is info that they where "pursing a great darkness", another mention of Y'shaarj, and speculation the Mogu were made to guard the veil. There is mention that the Mogu grew restless when the "keeper" was "sleeping" and that they eventually formed into warrior clans with Lei Shen rising as the supreme leader the "Thunder King" after he "took on" Ra-den's power.

    It's as clear as mud to be frank, but there's a chance he's a lesser Titan as opposed to another construct.


  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Feio View Post
    Seems like his references are directed at the old golds. What a surprise...
    Considering that many playable races exists because of the Old Gods it's not really surprising.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Considering that many playable races exists because of the Old Gods it's not really surprising.
    Sarcasm translates badly on the internet.

  19. #359
    Given new information I believe I can accurately speculate the course of events:

    The Titans created the Mogu to serve as soldiers and guards over the lands cursed by Y'shaarj's death, and greatly empowered Ra-den both to lord over them and to protect the Engine of Nalak'sha. After the curse of flesh began to spread, and old god corruption became prevalent, Ra-den began to lose hope and eventually retreated from his duties, abandoning the now-flesh Mogu and leaving them to do as they wish.

    Many generations later the Mogu had all but forgotten their origins and their purpose and had began to war against one another. Stories of their "god" and how he commanded the storms were handed down through the centuries, and how that one day their god had "stopped speaking to them". One day a young Mogu named Lei Shen stumbled into a titan vault and discovered the sullen Ra-den. Ra-den told Lei Shen of the Titans and of his people's origins, how he had abandoned his hopeless duty... and that he is the being they thought was a god.

    Lei Shen was enfuriated, believing that they should all be carrying out the Titans' will; the "true" gods' will. He believed that Ra-den had caused the Mogu to fall out of favour with the Titans and was responsible for the wars and chaos the Mogu now lived in. Lei Shen sought to give his people new purpose, to enact the Titan's will, and to make up for lost time... so he *somehow* subdued Ra-den, ripped out his heart and used his power to unify the Mogu once again, and founded an empire based on his misguided view of the Titans' will. With knowledge of the truth Lei Shen began to view all the races of the world as inferior.

    Lei Shen believes that he's doing what the Titans want, but in truth he really doesn't know very much about them. Viewing Ra-den as a traitor, Lei Shen tortured and experimented on the captive keeper and used him as a tool to further his own darkening agenda, forcing him to reveal the secrets of the Titans' technology and magic.
    Last edited by Netherspark; 2013-02-03 at 09:54 PM.

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by kage View Post
    It's as clear as mud to be frank, but there's a chance he's a lesser Titan as opposed to another construct.
    He's basically the equivalent of Thorim, Freya, Crazy Cat Lady, Ironaya, Archaedas
    If there's one thing World of Warcraft players hate more than people who don't play, it's people that do play but not as much as them.

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