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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    57 years is a rather short period of peace over the course of recorded history don't you think? I do believe it has happened before countless times.
    If it has happened "countless times", then why haven't you been able to name any?

    The Hundred Years War ended in 1453. The War of the Castilian Success broke out in 1475, and the Italian Wars began in 1494, which erupted periodically all the way until 1559. That was barely over before the Eighty Years' War began, during which time Europe also saw the Habsburg-Ottoman wars. Neither was over when the Thirty Years' War began in 1618.

    The Peace of Westphalia was followed within four years by the first of the Anglo-Dutch Wars in 1652, and by 1688 Europe was embroiled in the Nine Years' War. Less than a decade after that the War of the Spanish Succession broke out. The War of the Quadruple Alliance soon followed. Two decades later the War of the Austrian Succession took place, to be followed by the rematch called the Seven Years' War eight years later.

    Peace after the Seven Years' War didn't last three decades before the Storming of the Bastille and Europe descended into the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars. The Crimean War erupted 38 years after the Council of Vienna. The Belle Epoch only lasted 40 odd years before going down in the flames of the Great War. The inter-war period lasted a mere two decades before Europe plunged into the Second World War.

    And that brings us to today, 67 years and counting with no end in sight. So you tell me.


    Over the past few decades, we have extremely effectively been able to "re-route" war to..."less civilized" regions of the world to feel at peace here at "home".
    The rest of the world did not experience a surge of fighting, much less due to peace in the First World. That's nonsensical.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 05:59 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Prokne View Post
    Compared to antiquity, war is a lot more deadly.
    Actually, proportionally, a lot fewer people died the last century.
    Last edited by semaphore; 2012-12-29 at 06:00 AM.

  2. #62
    90's seemed most peaceful, That said i think WW2 and the holocaust were terrible but unfortunately vital aspects. This is thanks to

    . first time that genocide was truely publicized
    . effectively turned a large number of empires into 2 main blocks, by doing this it remained in mutual interest via trade as not to have wars
    . Due to changes in warfare colonies lost most value. This ended land grab to a large degree


    Technology and reporting also have had a major impact on our perception of war

    The rise of Secularism (thank a non-existant god)

  3. #63
    post WWII: Korea, Vietnam, Israel, Lebannon, Iraq, Congo, Yugoslavia, CHechnya, Georgia, Iraq x2, Afghanistan x2, Angola, Somalia, Syria. I'm probably missing a few wars here and there, but pretty much every decade has had a major conflict.

    if you want to see something on the scale of WWII you have to wait until glorious leader of Best Korea Kim Jong Un completes his nuke and puts it in most glorious missile. It will cause Japan to go nationalist and rebuild their imperial army and try to redeem their honor by exacting revenge on America. They will bomb pearl harbor again with Gundams and attack hollywood with mecha Godzilla. Israel will nuke Iran and Obama will invade Iran.

  4. #64
    Epic! Tokru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    If it has happened "countless times", then why haven't you been able to name any?

    The Hundred Years War ended in 1453. The War of the Castilian Success broke out in 1475, and the Italian Wars began in 1494, which erupted periodically all the way until 1559. That was barely over before the Eighty Years' War began, during which time Europe also saw the Habsburg-Ottoman wars. Neither was over when the Thirty Years' War began in 1618.

    The Peace of Westphalia was followed within four years by the first of the Anglo-Dutch Wars in 1652, and by 1688 Europe was embroiled in the Nine Years' War. Less than a decade after that the War of the Spanish Succession broke out. The War of the Quadruple Alliance soon followed. Two decades later the War of the Austrian Succession took place, to be followed by the rematch called the Seven Years' War eight years later.

    Peace after the Seven Years' War didn't last three decades before the Storming of the Bastille and Europe descended into the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars. The Crimean War erupted 38 years after the Council of Vienna. The Belle Epoch only lasted 40 odd years before going down in the flames of the Great War. The inter-war period lasted a mere two decades before Europe plunged into the Second World War.

    And that brings us to today, 67 years and counting with no end in sight. So you tell me.
    And none of these wars affected whole Europe.
    For example the only ones from your list really having an effect on the whole German territory were the Thirty Years' War 1618-1648, the Seven Years War 1756-1763, the Napoleonic Wars 1792-1815, the war against France 1870/71 and then WWI and WWII.
    Of course there were minor conflicts in between, but if you count those then you have to count Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Gulf I, Gulf II etc. and suddenly there are no 67 years of peace.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokru View Post
    And none of these wars affected whole Europe.
    And there's no war that affects all of Europe directly anyway.

    Of course there were minor conflicts in between
    The ones I listed aren't "minor conflicts" by any stretch of imagination. The War of the Spanish Succession for instance killed upwards of 700,000 soldiers. Military deaths in The Korean War were roughly in the same ballpark - but the populations involved in 1953 were several times bigger (China alone had 500+ million).

  6. #66
    It's a lot more peaceful now. People just see violence in the media today and don't realize it.

    The cognitive scientist Steven Pinker wrote an editorial in the WSJ that does a pretty good job at summarizing research and the historical record. To put it succinctly, there's a very long term trend (from at least the Middle Ages) of declining violence. This trend has held its own (with significant but brief flares of violence) well into the 20th and 21st centuries.

  7. #67
    Pit Lord Doktor Faustus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akinaria View Post
    What about 1946?
    Palestine, Indochina, British India, Dutch East Indies, Malaya, Burma, etc.

  8. #68
    Titan Wildtree's Avatar
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    That's a question and metaphor popping up frequently around Christmas/New Years Eve. Already long before an Internet existed. People longing for comfort, I guess...
    First, what time period we are referring to? 1 year, 10 years? 100 years? Do we use a wider span, or rather a snapshot?
    Let's go with something in between....

    In my opinion the answer is NOPE.... These are not the most peaceful times. By far not.
    We live in the freest time... Freedom however is not equal to peace. More than often it requires conflict to achieve freedom. Almost every time conflict starts because someone took the freedom to start it...
    Unfortunately, but absolutely true. Mankind is generally not mature, not mentally strong enough to cherish and handle freedom properly.
    Too big is the seduction of taking freedom and to use it as a personal "tool". But the moment freedom gets used as a personal attribute, that moment it becomes tainted by egoism and is poised for negative impact.
    Freedom, the greatest good humans can strife for, is the sole reason for every war, for every conflict. But since we cannot handle absolute freedom on a personal level, we struggle with it as societies. My opinion is, that the most peaceful times so far have been those when there wasn't much turmoil going on.
    Large empires, and kingdoms that had just leaders, have for sure been more peaceful at times than what we have today in many regions. Was it more free? Certainly not.
    Obey, or have your head chopped off ain't free at all.... But it created peace.
    And there were Kings and Emperors that did in fact look out after their people.

    All in all.... over the entire time span of our existence we are in one of the worst and most violent periods of mankind.

    And on top of everything: We would have a lot more violence, if there wasn't a silent war raging, we aren't really aware off right away.
    Trade War.... We use embargo's to restraint violence. But one can argue now, whether trade war is an act of violence in itself.
    I say yes.. Because in a way it's related to an army standing in front of a city, shutting it down, and prevent any goods entering or leaving the city, until it surrenders.
    Last edited by Wildtree; 2012-12-29 at 01:13 PM.

  9. #69
    human beings love to fight for pecking order so war will always be around, + the world is filled with 7 billion mongs, that is a shitstorm waiting to happen

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 01:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    That's a question and metaphor popping up frequently around Christmas/New Years Eve. Already long before an Internet existed. People longing for comfort, I guess...
    First, what time period we are referring to? 1 year, 10 years? 100 years? Do we use a wider span, or rather a snapshot?
    Let's go with something in between....

    In my opinion the answer is NOPE.... These are not the most peaceful times. By far not.
    We live in the freest time... Freedom however is not equal to peace. More than often it requires conflict to achieve freedom. Almost every time conflict starts because someone took the freedom to start it...
    Unfortunately, but absolutely true. Mankind is generally not mature, not mentally strong enough to cherish and handle freedom properly.
    Too big is the seduction of taking freedom and to use it as a personal "tool". But the moment freedom gets used as a personal attribute, that moment it becomes tainted by egoism and is poised for negative impact.
    Freedom, the greatest good humans can strife for, is the sole reason for every war, for every conflict. But since we cannot handle absolute freedom on a personal level, we struggle with it as societies. My opinion is, that the most peaceful times so far have been those when there wasn't much turmoil going on.
    Large empires, and kingdoms that had just leaders, have for sure been more peaceful at times than what we have today in many regions. Was it more free? Certainly not.
    Obey, or have your head chopped off ain't free at all.... But it created peace.
    And there were Kings and Emperors that did in fact look out after their people.

    All in all.... over the entire time span of our existence we are in one of the worst and most violent periods of mankind.

    And on top of everything: We would have a lot more violence, if there wasn't a silent war raging, we aren't really aware off right away.
    Trade War.... We use embargo's to restraint violence. But one can argue now, whether trade war is an act of violence in itself.
    Freedom? Freedom from what? you're in the universe you cannot get out of you're in a body and brain you cannot get out of...

    people always come up with this freedom word i have no clue what it means...

  10. #70
    Before humans existed without doubt. It is in mans nature to fight, at some degree at least. We will never see a world that doesn't have conflicts or wars of some kind.

  11. #71
    Titan Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sadface View Post
    Freedom? Freedom from what? you're in the universe you cannot get out of you're in a body and brain you cannot get out of...

    people always come up with this freedom word i have no clue what it means...
    Very good question. Not sure about the example tho.
    I don't know the answer to what it really means.. For all I know, it does not mean how many interpret it today.
    I cannot use examples now, since I certainly don't want to trigger just another nation bash. I am more interested in what actually triggered that rather obsession with Freedom, in our current times. Right from the very start of mankind we have never been free. We've always had leaders. We are mammals. We need guidance and leadership. We cannot function otherwise. Our history proves that times and again.
    Evidence exists that what we call freedom is damn close to the individual right of egoism.
    Because, in sociopolitical terms the theoretically freest form for a society would be communism. That however, we consider the worst form of society. We resort to solutions that warrant personal freedom. That warrant enough egoism to live and prosper, without the need of giving just a rats ass about the person next to us suffering in poverty.
    Well, this is the very root of how conquests start.. How empires rise. They took that freedom to take and conquer for the sole reason of their own prosperity, and not giving a rats ass how the conquered people go by. So it clearly starts on a personal level and just transports onto the bigger picture.
    And we use borders.. We don't let anyone in. We are free. it's our freedom.. You aren't allowed to take part of it... Sounds pretty egoistic to me.

  12. #72
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis View Post
    Yes, this is the most peaceful period in recorded history, far and away.
    http://www.pcr.uu.se/research/ucdp/charts_and_graphs/

    http://www.pcr.uu.se/digitalAssets/1...on_2011jpg.jpg


    You might be wrong
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    You might be wrong
    Those graphs only shows 1946-2011. The point is to compare this period to the rest of history.

  14. #74
    Titan Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    Those graphs only shows 1946-2011. The point is to compare this period to the rest of history.
    We can use this, and sort out the times where there wasn't any conflict.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._by_death_toll

    Someone would have to bring them all in order.

    Generally tho, the graph shows that for the amount of time it does show, we are clearly not in the most peaceful time. Because it increased. The least amount was around 1947 and then 1955
    Last edited by Wildtree; 2012-12-29 at 02:06 PM.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    We can use this
    That is an awful measure. A century of moderately bloody wars, is more devastating than one decade of war. Two big wars in different parts of the world might be less bloody than a world war individually, but added together they produced more combined violence than the world war. The point is, you have to look at the whole picture. Look at the amount of total conflict in the war at each point in time, not just a handful of the biggest ones (in absolute terms) separately.

    and sort out the times where there wasn't any conflict.
    There are no such times. Not if you look at a reasonable duration like a couple of decades.

    Generally tho, the graph shows that for the amount of time it does show, we are clearly not in the most peaceful time. Because it increased. The least amount was around 1947 and then 1955
    What graph? And it hasn't increased. Sort that list by the percentage of world population, and you'll see that WW2 didn't even make it into the top 5. And that's despite the fact that WW2 is the most expansive conflict, while all the other wars were much more spatially limited. For example, the Manchurian conquest of China, the fourth on that list, took place during the same period as the 30 Years' War, which is also one of the bloodiest conflicts in history.

  16. #76
    Scarab Lord breadisfunny's Avatar
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    the first day humans walked the earth?

  17. #77
    There will never be peace as long as there are humans on Earth.
    People don't forgive, they forget. - Rust Cohle

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    the first day humans walked the earth?
    Prehistoric societies were very violent. Humans have been killing each other since before modern humans evolved.

  19. #79
    bigger population = more conflicts. As for media showing it all none stop yes they do, proves its going on heh...

    Country's are still at war just not in the physical sense these days its more about controlling money, oil, tech etc etc than killing each other now to see who is the hardiest.

    Go back a few 100 years and the wars were smaller between only a few thousand people and they were not all that frequent. So in the past it has been much more peaceful.

    War is a funny thing, most people jump and think its just about 2 sides killing each other, in fact killing does not have to happen to be in a war. People still loses out today higher fuel prices, and cost of living and stuff as a result its just people are not getting shot / stabbed so much but poverty, and milking humanity for gains still goes on even more so today than it ever has.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    You can't really say things like that. Its like "the rape of the girl means less nowadays because more girls walking the surface of earth".
    I didn't say it matters less for the individual. The word "mean" was in statistical means, and not feelings.
    The point was that is that if one girl get raped every year in a population of 5 people, and you 100 years later have 2 girls raped in a population of 1000 every year, there's less rapes compared to the population.
    Meaning it's more safe than before to be a girl. You can say the amount of rapes got up, but the percentage of girls raped are much lower.
    Same goes for wars, murder, theft etc.
    Everyone has so much to say
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