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  1. #1
    Pandaren Monk Serpent's Avatar
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    Affliction - why so high on meters?

    How come Blizzard hasn't fixed this yet? On almost every single fight, Raidbots reports that Affliction is significantly ahead. Majority of fights it's on the top, and by a fair margin. This holds true for across all difficulties and sample sets (top 100/all), pretty much.
    Point is, there's not much doubt that Affliction is in a *too* good spot atm, compared to all other DPS (except for Arcane, maybe, but they're getting nerfed by a lot come 5.2).

    Sure, they nerfed GoSac. Which will result in a, what, 2.5% damage decrease? That's not at all enough to bring it in line.

    Anyways, to the point - 1) is Affliction really as good as I think it is or am I simply misinformed?
    2) If yes, why hasn't it been nerfed yet?
    3) Will it be nerfed in the near future (5.2 primarily) at all?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    How come Blizzard hasn't fixed this yet? On almost every single fight, Raidbots reports that Affliction is significantly ahead. Majority of fights it's on the top, and by a fair margin. This holds true for across all difficulties and sample sets (top 100/all), pretty much.
    Point is, there's not much doubt that Affliction is in a *too* good spot atm, compared to all other DPS (except for Arcane, maybe, but they're getting nerfed by a lot come 5.2).

    Sure, they nerfed GoSac. Which will result in a, what, 2.5% damage decrease? That's not at all enough to bring it in line.

    Anyways, to the point - 1) is Affliction really as good as I think it is or am I simply misinformed?
    2) If yes, why hasn't it been nerfed yet?
    3) Will it be nerfed in the near future (5.2 primarily) at all?
    There are no nerfs on the horizon, that have at least been posted. Blizzard is always slow on this kinda thing because they need time to collect "accurate data." Lol I know right. One thing to consider is that they were horrible in Cata so maybe their turning a blind eye at the moment to make up for that. That being said I agree with you, although not on all fights, (Garalon for example) that overall they do take the cake. And I also agree that there isn't anything wrong with them taking the cake but It is wrong that it is by such a wide margin. Plus their also way slower to respond to PvE disparities cause it's REALLY not screwing anyone like in PVP, it's actually helping you as a raid grp.

    Personally as a Frost DK I actually keep up with and on some fights blow them away on meters.

  3. #3
    Aff is the iconic warlock PvP spec. Aff PvP damage sucks.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Tya View Post
    Aff is the iconic warlock PvP spec. Aff PvP damage sucks.

    Aff WAS the iconic pvp spec. Demonology is dramatically better now.


    Speaking of Demonology, its actually far better than Affliction for the majority of Heroic fights in this tier.

  5. #5
    Herald of the Titans Bathory's Avatar
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Aff WAS the iconic pvp spec. Demonology is dramatically better now.


    Speaking of Demonology, its actually far better than Affliction for the majority of Heroic fights in this tier.
    Iconic does not mean better.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Tya View Post
    Iconic does not mean better.
    Ok... So, Aff WAS the iconic pvp spec. Demonology is "iconic" now. You feel better now?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Ok... So, Aff WAS the iconic pvp spec. Demonology is "iconic" now. You feel better now?
    Iconic in your mind, however you are in a minority mindset.

  9. #9
    Meh, a nerf is a nerf is a nerf and there's nothing to suggest that the patch notes are final for Warlocks.

    There's a difference between being strong on multiple fights and being a nerf-worthy outlier. Looking at, say, 25 Heroic set to All Parses (assumes people know what they're doing without limiting it to the very elite) on the default measure shows Affliction being the following rank for every fight this tier over the past couple weeks*:

    Vizier - 2nd
    Tayak - 4th
    Garalon - 11th
    Meljarak - 4th
    Unsok - 2nd
    Empress - 1st (124k, next in line is Arcane at 116)

    Stone Guard - 5th
    Feng - 6th
    Garajal - 3rd
    Spirit Kings - 1st (86k with Demo with BM being next in line at 82k)
    Elegon - 1st (179k with Arcane next in line at 170k)
    Will - 8th

    Terrace seems to have no data but the 25 Normal ranks are as follows on the same settings:

    Protectors - 2nd
    Tsulong - 7th
    Lei Shi - 16th
    Sha - 1st (78k with Arcane next in line at 71k)

    There are some outliers in Aff's favor, even if a couple like Elegon and Sha can be a bit "gimmicky" with bonus damage buffs. If you're looking at this from a "Spec Score" or Overall DPS standpoint, Affliction is going to come out high on the list because it doesn't have a lot of weak fights. I would have to dig up a quote from GC on twitter but I believe they don't balance around the results of an entire tier, but look at it on a per-fight basis. All things considered, Affliction is of course pretty strong but I don't think when you break it down to individual fights that Affliction is that offensive.


    Two questions for you:

    1) What particular data set on Raidbots do you prefer to look at? Data can be spun to serve particular points of view and I'm just curious what you prefer to go by.
    2) Going beyond the GoSac nerf, what do you think should be done to bring Affliction "in line"...?





    REAL EDIT:

    Some relevant twitter posts from GC:

    Compare individual fights (esp. all and not top 100) and they are pretty close on most fights. Some like Elegon throw #s off.
    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...60350201176064

    About Mages but gives you some insight into the data measures they prefer. With that said...

    Pretty happy with PvE overall. Arcane will be fine without Scorch spam. Aff may be too high. UH, Sub, Ele, Arms may be low.
    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...99630316437504

    It's been brought to GC's attention



    FAKE EDIT:

    *= It's late and people are certainly welcome to double-check my numbers and call me an idiot.

    ...and inb4dontnerfmebro
    Last edited by Rethul Ur No; 2012-12-25 at 07:26 AM.

  10. #10
    The Patient Kaizers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethul Ur No View Post
    Meh, a nerf is a nerf is a nerf and there's nothing to suggest that the patch notes are final for Warlocks.

    There's a difference between being strong on multiple fights and being a nerf-worthy outlier. Looking at, say, 25 Heroic set to All Parses (assumes people know what they're doing without limiting it to the very elite) on the default measure shows Affliction being the following rank for every fight this tier over the past month*:

    Vizier - 2nd
    Tayak - 4th
    Garalon - 11th
    Meljarak - 4th
    Unsok - 2nd
    Empress - 1st

    Stone Guard - 5th
    Feng - 6th
    Garajal - 3rd
    Spirit Kings - 1st
    Elegon - 1st
    Will - 8th

    Terrace seems to have no data but the 25 Normal ranks are as follows on the same settings:

    Protectors - 2nd
    Tsulong - 7th
    Lei Shi - 16th
    Sha - 1st

    There are some "outliers" in Aff's favor, imho....Sha of Fear and Elegon to some degree. If you're looking at this from a "Spec Score" or Overall DPS standpoint, Affliction is going to come out high on the list because it doesn't have a lot of weak fights. I would have to dig up a quote from GC on twitter but I believe they don't balance around the results of an entire tier, but look at it on a per-fight basis. All things considered, Affliction is of course pretty strong but I don't think when you break it down to individual fights that Affliction is that offensive.


    Two questions for you:

    1) What particular data set on Raidbots do you prefer to look at? Data can be spun to serve particular points of view and I'm just curious what you prefer to go by.
    2) Going beyond the GoSac nerf, what do you think should be done to bring Affliction "in line"...?





    *= It's late and people are certainly welcome to double-check my numbers and call me an idiot.
    That pretty much nails it,

    Affliction has it's strong fights, we don't lose any real dps from movement and our single target dps is solid, but on the other hand we don't really have much in the way of aoe and our multi-doting, while great on targets that are spread isn't nearly as strong as fire/combat cleave on targets that are close together. In some situations it's better to be Demo or even Destro for fight mechanics or superior numbers.

    And that's the real key I think, Aff is strong but it has weaknesses; whereas say fire 5.1 was just outrageously overpowered no matter what fight you brought it to.

  11. #11
    Pandaren Monk Serpent's Avatar
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    1) I usually prefer to go by a fight to fight basis, 10H (what I'm raiding), with a sample period of 2 weeks looking at All Parses.

    2) Basing my judgment on what I've seen looking at Raidbots results over a couple weeks, I would say another 5% or so for it to be "up there" but not the dominating spec. Less than that would be sufficient as well, maybe 2-3% to reduce/remove the gap between Affliction and the specs behind it.

    (Responding to Rethul Ur No).

  12. #12
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    How come Blizzard hasn't fixed this yet? On almost every single fight, Raidbots reports that Affliction is significantly ahead. Majority of fights it's on the top, and by a fair margin. This holds true for across all difficulties and sample sets (top 100/all), pretty much.
    Rethul Ur No posted, affliction locks really aren't that high compared to other classes. A 2.5% damage decrease is a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    That's not at all enough to bring it in line.
    Define "brought in line" because most people say this but really mean "nerf to fucking oblivion."

    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    Anyways, to the point - 1) is Affliction really as good as I think it is or am I simply misinformed?
    2) If yes, why hasn't it been nerfed yet?
    3) Will it be nerfed in the near future (5.2 primarily) at all?
    1, 2) Because it's not really as good as you think it is.
    3) Yes, there are already nerfs, as you posted above (a significant 2.5% decrease), so you answered your own question...


    P.S. Keep in mind other classes may also be getting buffed, which might close this perceived "huge gap" more than you'd think...

    Edit: I looked over the 10 heroic results, the thing you have to remember is a lot of the higher parses (especially on 10H) are due to padding; for instance, on Will of the Emperor your AoE versus strength/boss DPS changes how you rank significantly. Same goes for receiving buffs (BoP, for instance) to get around mechanics. Now that MSV is on farm pretty much completely for most top guilds and HoF is getting there, you'll see more "outlier" parses than before that don't really reflect how useful a spec is for progression.

    Case in point: Spine affliction was one of the top DPS, and the brilliant RaidBots for some reason did not exclude Spine of Deathwing from spec score. Of course, for actual usefulness of the class, warlocks were bottom of the barrel...
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2012-12-25 at 06:31 AM.

  13. #13
    I added a couple of twitter posts from Ghostcrawler that might have some use in the discussion....not that I don't think the balancing team is capable of going to other direction from what's been said. There are more tweets I'd like to dig up, too.

    I'm also genuinely curious how people prefer to sort data when looking at things like WoL and raidbots.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Rethul Ur No posted, affliction locks really aren't that high compared to other classes. A 2.5% damage decrease is a lot.



    Define "brought in line" because most people say this but really mean "nerf to fucking oblivion."



    1, 2) Because it's not really as good as you think it is.
    3) Yes, there are already nerfs, as you posted above (a significant 2.5% decrease), so you answered your own question...


    P.S. Keep in mind other classes may also be getting buffed, which might close this perceived "huge gap" more than you'd think...

    Edit: I looked over the 10 heroic results, the thing you have to remember is a lot of the higher parses (especially on 10H) are due to padding; for instance, on Will of the Emperor your AoE versus strength/boss DPS changes how you rank significantly. Same goes for receiving buffs (BoP, for instance) to get around mechanics. Now that MSV is on farm pretty much completely for most top guilds and HoF is getting there, you'll see more "outlier" parses than before that don't really reflect how useful a spec is for progression.

    Case in point: Spine affliction was one of the top DPS, and the brilliant RaidBots for some reason did not exclude Spine of Deathwing from spec score. Of course, for actual usefulness of the class, warlocks were bottom of the barrel...

    Sorry, but you're clueless. The 5% nerf is only 6.5k if you're doing 130k dps. That's not being nerfed into the ground, that's bring Aff in line.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Sorry, but you're clueless. The 5% nerf is only 6.5k if you're doing 130k dps. That's not being nerfed into the ground, that's bring Aff in line.
    Similarly would you like your class to lose 6.5k just because? Aff isn't OP in my mind. They have good fights and bad fights like the rest of the classes. It's just that their bad fights aren't as bad as other classes may have. And if it's "only" 6.5k then is it something that should we should be concerned about in the first place? I think there's very little merit to such discussions since GC posted that aff may be a little too high and some other classes a little too low. Either way, 5% is a huge number, especially when you take into account that people min/max for much much less of an increase. Your post, to me, reads like you just want locks nerfed.

  16. #16
    I usually go All Parses, 2 weeks to weed out parses from pre-hotfix builds, and usually run median instead of default measure (that's what my stats class got me to do at least lol).

    Just a quick note to the OP, the dev team has to consider all modes when balancing, 10N/H and 25N/H. Things can work out very differently as such and can greatly affect how specs perform.

    For instance, on Will of the Emperor 10N, my first kill came in a group where I was constantly pulling threat on the Strengths (really bad melee -.-), and so I ended up spending most of my time "tanking" them. My DPS suffered as a result. However, on 25N which I now run and with a pretty good group, I can multi-dot to my heart's content and ramp up my DPS considerably. Of course, because of how Heroic works, I'd imagine Demo might be more appropriate for that because of the CC->AoE Burst way the fight needs to be done, but this might differ between 10 and 25 because of the number of adds.

    Basically, Aff might be too good in the way you look at the parses and it might be just good in the way I look at them, but the devs need to consider everything (and I don't envy them). Also, I think a ~2.5% off the top nerf is fine for Aff, should put it "in line" with most other DPS, while also giving us a bit more flexibility in our selection of Grimoire talents, assuming GoSac will no longer be far and away the best choice.

  17. #17
    Pandaren Monk Serpent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Rethul Ur No posted, affliction locks really aren't that high compared to other classes. A 2.5% damage decrease is a lot.



    Define "brought in line" because most people say this but really mean "nerf to fucking oblivion."



    1, 2) Because it's not really as good as you think it is.
    3) Yes, there are already nerfs, as you posted above (a significant 2.5% decrease), so you answered your own question...


    P.S. Keep in mind other classes may also be getting buffed, which might close this perceived "huge gap" more than you'd think...

    Edit: I looked over the 10 heroic results, the thing you have to remember is a lot of the higher parses (especially on 10H) are due to padding; for instance, on Will of the Emperor your AoE versus strength/boss DPS changes how you rank significantly. Same goes for receiving buffs (BoP, for instance) to get around mechanics. Now that MSV is on farm pretty much completely for most top guilds and HoF is getting there, you'll see more "outlier" parses than before that don't really reflect how useful a spec is for progression.

    Case in point: Spine affliction was one of the top DPS, and the brilliant RaidBots for some reason did not exclude Spine of Deathwing from spec score. Of course, for actual usefulness of the class, warlocks were bottom of the barrel...
    Meter padding? If you're looking at top 100, sure, maybe. But no way in hell it influences number-comparison when using All Parses (which you should).

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by link4117 View Post
    Similarly would you like your class to lose 6.5k just because? Aff isn't OP in my mind. They have good fights and bad fights like the rest of the classes. It's just that their bad fights aren't as bad as other classes may have. And if it's "only" 6.5k then is it something that should we should be concerned about in the first place? I think there's very little merit to such discussions since GC posted that aff may be a little too high and some other classes a little too low. Either way, 5% is a huge number, especially when you take into account that people min/max for much much less of an increase. Your post, to me, reads like you just want locks nerfed.

    Aff needs a nerf. They parse top 10 on 14/16 fights. No other spec in the game can do that right now. That's not balance, its overkill.

    Also, before you question me about "wanting locks nerfed", you should probably consider my avatar, as well as looking in the mirror. Blindly raging that locks are being "nerfed into the ground" because of a very small nerf is rather ignorant.

  19. #19
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by link4117 View Post
    Similarly would you like your class to lose 6.5k just because? Aff isn't OP in my mind. They have good fights and bad fights like the rest of the classes. It's just that their bad fights aren't as bad as other classes may have.
    Pretty much this. Especially for a pure DPS class, having 1 extremely "bad fight" just makes the whole class bad for the tier, especially since pures really just are supposed to bring DPS, and relatively little utility in the form of CD's.

    Quote Originally Posted by link4117 View Post
    And if it's "only" 6.5k then is it something that should we should be concerned about in the first place? I think there's very little merit to such discussions since GC posted that aff may be a little too high and some other classes a little too low. Either way, 5% is a huge number, especially when you take into account that people min/max for much much less of an increase.
    Basically this. GC has said that he considers warlocks high at the moment, and they are putting in a nerf that is not a massive, 40% knee-jerk reaction nerf. Which, to me, sound more like "bringing the class in line." Suggestions about "bigger nerfs" sound like "in line" really means "bottom of the line."

    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Aff needs a nerf. They parse top 10 on 14/16 fights. No other spec in the game can do that right now. That's not balance, its overkill.
    How much do you know about how affliction as a spec works, just wondering? Personally I don't claim to be an expert, but top 100 and even top 200 parses can reflect classes with more "spread" than not, for instance, which is why mages got to enjoy top parses, without nerfs, for a large part of DS.

    Also, I looked over the logs, what are you talking about when you say "top 10 of 14/16 fights." I can see maybe 4-5 fights, max, where affliction has even decent (let alone ALL of) representation in the top 10 spots of fights. A lot of those fights (elegon, will of the emperor), as GC even said, are outliers.

    I'm really wondering what you meant by that statement...
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2012-12-25 at 08:33 AM.

  20. #20
    Pandaren Monk Serpent's Avatar
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    It's funny how you seem to think that "bigger nerfs" necessarily have to put Affliction in last place. Not sure if you're aware of how HUGE the cap between the top (Affliction/Arcane) and the bottom (Elemental, UH, Arms etc.) is.

    The 3% nerf (or whatever it is) will not affect Afflictions top position. It would take a 5-10% or so (further) nerf to make it rank in the middle of the pack. That's a "bigger nerf", is it not? And yet, such a nerf would not bring the spec to "the buttom of the line" (as you so delicately put it), but rather to the middle.

    Sorry, but you are clueless.

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