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  1. #181
    Stood in the Fire SaltLakeAtrocity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Speaking of Demonology, its actually far better than Affliction for the majority of Heroic fights in this tier.
    I can't see how that statement even COULD be true with the changes to KJC.
    -- We'll Dance As The Palaces Burn --

  2. #182
    We have to keep in mind that in 5.2 with new gear we might be ahead even more of other specs even if we recieve the GoSac nerf, as people already said, aff locks scaling is insane compared to other specs.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by SaltLakeAtrocity View Post
    I can't see how that statement even COULD be true with the changes to KJC.
    He's wrong. Very much so.

    Quote Originally Posted by actiwe View Post
    We have to keep in mind that in 5.2 with new gear we might be ahead even more of other specs even if we recieve the GoSac nerf, as people already said, aff locks scaling is insane compared to other specs.
    True. It's gonna be sick.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    He's wrong. Very much so.

    What spec were most of the Warlocks who killed Heroic Sha first week? Oh, right, Demonology. And it wasn't for the movement.

    You really need to stop acting so high and mighty Bonkura. Almost every thread I see you post in, you look silly.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    What spec were most of the Warlocks who killed Heroic Sha first week? Oh, right, Demonology. And it wasn't for the movement.

    You really need to stop acting so high and mighty Bonkura. Almost every thread I see you post in, you look silly.
    Sorry, I've just progressed on every single fight before nerfs (except the P1 change of Sha HC) where I've got to try and see the flaws of each spec myself as well as been checking WoL constantly to see what the locks in other top guilds play and how they perform. In 10-man I can tell you for sure that there has only been one or two fights in each raid where Affli hasn't been clearly better than Demo (Destro hasn't been better at any fight). You're welcome to prove me wrong, though.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    Hunters shouldn't have gotten Aspect of the Fox to be baseline. It should've been removed completely. They get away with this only because their damage is so low in theory.
    It's a DPS loss for Demo to switch into Meta if not timed with DS/procs.
    Whenever meeles can't sit on a target it's a big DPS loss.
    You're talking about very tiny margins; the examples of encounters you gave have very little downtime for melee, Warriors especially. And the loss for Demo using Meta outside a trinket proc is, again miniscule. Those certainly wont make up the difference that allows Affliction to be as far ahead as it is, if it wasn't already there.

    If we flip your argument to the Hunter one, of allowing them such mobility because of lower theoretical DPS; then that's something that has to be applied to the spec, not the talent, as the talent itself is already of varying usefulness to each spec.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    You're talking about very tiny margins; the examples of encounters you gave have very little downtime for melee, Warriors especially. And the loss for Demo using Meta outside a trinket proc is, again miniscule. Those certainly wont make up the difference that allows Affliction to be as far ahead as it is, if it wasn't already there.

    If we flip your argument to the Hunter one, of allowing them such mobility because of lower theoretical DPS; then that's something that has to be applied to the spec, not the talent, as the talent itself is already of varying usefulness to each spec.
    It might not have been clear but what's bothering me is that the game is heading towards ranged getting more free to DPS while on the move, which I think is not necessary. So what should be done is tune down the ability to do so before every class is given it as compensation because others can do so.

    Regarding meeles I think they actually all should be ahead on a Patchwerk fight to compensate for being so bad at target switching. It shouldn't damage your raid to have 2-3 meeles in it (in 10-man, not sure what that would be for 25), which rarely has even been an option in current content.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Falsified View Post
    What i don't get is why locks get KJ, casting while moving seems a bit of when you already have a spamable filler when on the move, fel flame is currently way stronger than the instant SWP SP have, plus they have the instant 3 dots in one gcd. Having their main filler do the same amount of damage on the move is one reason why locks are currently op. Mannoroth is also troubling, your aoe spell gain a totally new possiblity by hiting pretty much every thing in a room, they can spam it on unsok and make them by far the best charge damage dealer on elegon. KJC should have a real down side or work like shaman's spirit walk, on use, and thought many don't see the opness of mannoroth this is primarily due to the fact that it is used on a handfull of fights atm, but in all those fights it puts the lock in such a good position. Elegon/unsok are fights where multi doting is already prominent but locks go past that and turn multidoting to solid aoe(which is better). Incuring a small cd on your aoe spell when you have mannoroth would put this talent in check, but if we look back at encounters of previous tiers, mannoroth would have been massive on a lot of those fights(ofc this tier it is not that op but we never know about next tier).
    We're not a shadowpriest, our dots do very little damage without the catalyst that is malefic grasp. I'm fine with using fel flame only, but then dots from Spriest and Boomkins should also incur the 50% damage penalty when moving/not channeling/not casting. With KJC we get snared, which is not without its caveats. Mannoroths is a gimmick for greeding on Elegon, Affliction has horrible aoe power compared to most other classes. Aoe and low hp mobs (like on Tsulong) is affliction's weakness. Seed of corruption has a cast time, travel time and a detonation timer, in most cases it's not worth aoeing as affliction as mobs are already often dead by the time you've set up the aoe. I'd happily trade a slightly weaker aoe for a more functional one. We might be slightly ahead on single target dps, but on everything else other classes do better, much better, including multi-target dotting/cleaving. I'm not denying affliction is in a good spot, especially on single target fights, but it's asinine to herald it as the master of all, it certainly isn't.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    It might not have been clear but what's bothering me is that the game is heading towards ranged getting more free to DPS while on the move, which I think is not necessary. So what should be done is tune down the ability to do so before every class is given it as compensation because others can do so.

    Regarding meeles I think they actually all should be ahead on a Patchwerk fight to compensate for being so bad at target switching. It shouldn't damage your raid to have 2-3 meeles in it (in 10-man, not sure what that would be for 25), which rarely has even been an option in current content.
    I don't disagree with that point, but it's a whole other issue from Affliction being where it is. I do think part of the problem in PvP is actually that the arms race between gap openers and gap closers between Melee and Ranged is possibly the real underlying issue people are having with 'too much CC'; as melee struggle to close, and ranged struggle to get away.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2012-12-28 at 09:05 PM.

  10. #190
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    I don't think these reasons are enough to warrant it being called a warlock-friendly fight (other than what it already is due to KJC of course); since we're looking at All Parses, the amount of Warlocks padding the meters DPSing the P2 echoes/recieving BoPs is miniscule.
    Why isn't it a good reason? All Parses still = Top 200 parses, and there are a lot of affliction warlocks. I think sometimes you mistake "All Parses" with "All Uploads" but it really just means Top 200, which is still a small sample size given the large pool of affliction warlocks.

    By contrast, there are other specs where there aren't even 200 parses, because nobody plays them. On Vizier 10H, Destruction Warlock has 33 parses total with a rank limit of 63k. Arms has 19 parses total with a 58k rank limit. Unholy DK? 13 parses total with a 71k rank limit. 25H is a similar situation for all of those specs.

    The difference between #100 and #200 parse in Vizier for affliction is 6k: going from 97k to 91k. That's a huge sample of affliction warlocks playing that fight (huge), meaning that's why the difference between Top 100 and Top 200, while there, is pretty minimal for good specs given that high rank limit.

    Given the high affliction rank limit (91k), it's pretty safe to assume that a good chunk of the top 200 are in fact receiving BoPs (which is good for progression) and are either multidotting the P2 echo because their group is killing it, or padding the P2 echo with a single round of DoTs, which takes 1 global on a farm kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    Not so much that; looking at one boss only instead of comparing multiple is an overall bad way to measure DPS regardless.
    I just explained why you look at a few bosses. Other encounter-neutral bosses (Blade Lord, Spirit Kings) show an even smaller spread between affliction and other classes.

    Garalon for instance is not encounter-neutral. During progression it is bad to pad meters by dotting all the legs in a melee heavy group, because melee receive bigger bonuses from killing legs than dotters do. During farm, people will blow up meters by (not helping the encounter) and dotting all legs. So the end-tier ranking doesn't reflect what class was good for progression, whatsoever.

    Grand Empress Shek'zeer: looking at all top 5 affliction warlock parses, I see an average of 12.8 million damage on Kor'thik Reaver. Hint: you don't need to do that.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Can people please actually, you know, do some of these encounters before talking about their raidbots?


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    As GC even has said, for the most part classes are balanced around patchwerk (hence referring to sims), and then are balanced to make sure they aren't too weak on certain fight demands (movement, AoE).

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post

    Can people please actually, you know, do some of these encounters before talking about their raidbots?

    Dude, you're 6/10 for HoF and Terrace normal.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...spark/advanced

    I'm at the point where I just roll my eyes when I see posts from you. GC said class balance is done around Patchwerk sims? What a joke, show me a source. I remember him saying the exact opposite during beta when Boomkins were bitching about their patchwerk dps.
    Last edited by Teye; 2012-12-28 at 10:02 PM.

  12. #192
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Dude, you're 6/10 for HoF and Terrace normal.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...spark/advanced
    [edit]

    Check achievements. Check raid titles. Keep talking. I did say many times that my warlock was (mostly) inactive at this point.

    I'm done with the flamefest. Teye, looking back, you first began throwing out insults like a little kid, then had a hissy fit on me and multiple others when they talked sense, and finally you are now trying to pin any/all flaming on me and others. Last reply you're getting from me regarding anything.

    If people want to keep debating raidbots, then I'm all ears. But there are multiple twitters from GC/others regarding "gimmick fights." As you just saw, a good amount of heart of fear falls under that category.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2012-12-28 at 10:21 PM.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Check achievements. Check raid titles. Keep talking.

    You must as blind as you are pompous, when I did say many times that my warlock was (mostly) inactive at this point.

    Oh, so someone who doesn't even play the spec has been posting like crazy in this thread talking down to everyone, and borderline flaming anyone who says Aff needs a nerf. Keep defending your alt bro, the rest of us will keep living in reality.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Oh, so someone who doesn't even play the spec has been posting like crazy in this thread talking down to everyone, and borderline flaming anyone who says Aff needs a nerf. Keep defending your alt bro, the rest of us will keep living in reality.
    So people who doesnt play it cant defend it, only whine about it?

  15. #195
    Nice job editing your flame Void.

  16. #196
    I warned you guys a few pages ago not to get personal and keep WHO is arguing seperate from the actual argument itsself. I will warn no more, next person to start personal attacks gets infracted.
    Your soul shall be mine! ||| Forum rules ||| New England Patriots

  17. #197
    Pandaren Monk Evela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milmo View Post
    ... I'm fine with using fel flame only, but then dots from Spriest and Boomkins should also incur the 50% damage penalty when moving/not channeling/not casting. With KJC we get snared, which is not without its caveats. Mannoroths is a gimmick for greeding on Elegon, Affliction has horrible aoe power compared to most other classes. Aoe and low hp mobs (like on Tsulong) is affliction's weakness. Seed of corruption has a cast time, travel time and a detonation timer, in most cases it's not worth aoeing as affliction as mobs are already often dead by the time you've set up the aoe. I'd happily trade a slightly weaker aoe for a more functional one. We might be slightly ahead on single target dps, but on everything else other classes do better, much better, including multi-target dotting/cleaving...
    A couple of things; you can't directly compare Affliction to Balance/Shadow. Affliction is in a much better place at the moment - this includes better (much better) mobility. Balance is one of the most immobile specs out there, and Shadow isn't too far off either. Besides, if KJC were to be removed (this won't happen), Balance/Shadow dots should stay they way they are. All three classes would have their dots ticking on the move, with some instants available some of the time.

    Also, yes, theoretically Shadow/Balance might (?) be better at multi-dotting. That isn't the case at the moment; Affliction pulls ahead from Balance/Shadow even on fights with heavy multidotting (Will, Sha of Fear N, many others).

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 01:56 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    ... But there are multiple twitters from GC/others regarding "gimmick fights." As you just saw, a good amount of heart of fear falls under that category.
    You still can't entirely disregard gimmicky fights. Also, if anything, there are as many gimmicky fights in HoF as there is in MSV.
    All Parses still = Top 200 parses
    No, it's not. 200 wouldn't be much different from 100, because of the exact reason you're describing. This is why the option disappeared going from stateofdps to raidbots. On Vizier 10H, for example, if you scroll down it well tell you that there has been 594 parses from Affliction and that all of them are being looked at.
    -
    If you were looking at top 100 (or top 200 if it existed) you would be right; there *would* be meter padding - far more than there is when looking at All Parses. Just like there is on every fight, in varying degree. This is one of the reasons it's statistically unviable to only look at the top 100.
    Can people please actually, you know, do some of these encounters before talking about their raidbots?
    I haven't discussed any encounters that I haven't done personally.
    Last edited by Evela; 2012-12-29 at 01:01 AM.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Why isn't it a good reason? All Parses still = Top 200 parses, and there are a lot of affliction warlocks. I think sometimes you mistake "All Parses" with "All Uploads" but it really just means Top 200, which is still a small sample size given the large pool of affliction warlocks.
    Nah - check the number of samples in the table below the graph when you use All Parses - http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Blade_Lor...14/60/default/ for example, you'll see that that's almost 2000 Affliction parses.

    You are, right for the sample size mattering MUCH more than Teye or the OP realize. Demonology is strong enough that any nerf to Affliction would result in Demo taking a similar spot in rankings - the only reason that hasn't manifested is because literally 10 times more players are playing Affliction. For all the 'it's KJC!' people, keep in mind that Demo is a spec that largely doesn't suffer from movement either; even with the 4-piece bonus, Demo has enough time between Dark Souls to 'spend' some fury on movement without it adversely affecting DPS during Meta.

    Finally, any argument citing the weakness of Shadow and the 'gap' between Affliction and Shadow should be thrown out. In fact, any hybrid argument should be largely ignored, because hybrids bring very real utility that support guilds bringing them. Certainly there is no class stacking (1994 Affliction samples for Blade Lord 25H, 1761 for Shadow samples on the same fight). Yes, Blizzard has said in the past they're getting rid of the hybrid tax, but please look at results over intentions. Every hybrid class that has OS heals lags in damage behind pures. This is in large part due to PvP balance, but also because healing utility is huge and valuable. Affliction could sit at 20% above Shadow for every fight but it will never be able to Hymn or Mass Dispel. We can argue this until our faces are blue but results are everything. I did not hear of a single WF guild through all of progression drop any hybrids due to DPS weakness. The only comparisons that should be made are between the best pure DPS specs on each fight.
    http://darkcontent.wordpress.com/ - blog (updated Oct. 8, 2013). Latest post: T16H Affliction Trinket Rankings in Combination, done in SimC 540-4.

  19. #199
    Pandaren Monk Evela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustjive View Post
    Finally, any argument citing the weakness of Shadow and the 'gap' between Affliction and Shadow should be thrown out. In fact, any hybrid argument should be largely ignored, because hybrids bring very real utility that support guilds bringing them. Certainly there is no class stacking (1994 Affliction samples for Blade Lord 25H, 1761 for Shadow samples on the same fight). Yes, Blizzard has said in the past they're getting rid of the hybrid tax, but please look at results over intentions. Every hybrid class that has OS heals lags in damage behind pures. This is in large part due to PvP balance, but also because healing utility is huge and valuable. Affliction could sit at 20% above Shadow for every fight but it will never be able to Hymn or Mass Dispel. We can argue this until our faces are blue but results are everything. I did not hear of a single WF guild through all of progression drop any hybrids due to DPS weakness. The only comparisons that should be made are between the best pure DPS specs on each fight.
    It still doesn't mean that Affliction *should* be 20% above Shadow. It also doesn't make any sense to say that no comparisons should be drawn between hybrid and pures; class balancing is very real, and it involves both hybrids and pures - and not in two different camps, one 20% above the other.
    The hybrid tax is - officially - gone, and while you're right in saying that it still lingers to some extent (though likely not on purpose, but rather due to PvP balance/having less specs to choose from etc.), it still doesn't mean that it should.

  20. #200
    But why not? I am arguing that in this very current tier, that there IS a hybrid tax, and that encounter design has made it so that it's okay to have a hybrid tax. I don't see anything to prove me wrong about that 2nd part.
    http://darkcontent.wordpress.com/ - blog (updated Oct. 8, 2013). Latest post: T16H Affliction Trinket Rankings in Combination, done in SimC 540-4.

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