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  1. #221
    Read them as they came, never got that impression. You'd need to be more specific, but if that's the case - why so much hate toward caster hybrids.

  2. #222
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by whi View Post
    Read them as they came, never got that impression. You'd need to be more specific, but if that's the case - why so much hate toward caster hybrids.
    It's as much a toolkit issue as numbers. Not everyone has combustion or havoc, and fights that favor those mechanics will prop up classes that have access to those tools, no matter if they're hybrid or pure.
    After being Medieve the Uberpally for many years, finally shelved in favor of Belledanna, the Uberlock!!! (patent pending)
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  3. #223
    I'm pretty sure they're not any better single target(ele has rather good cleave i recon, though?).

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    Yeah they haven't been that great this tier but they still bring some. There's been quite a lot of fights where dispels and interrupts have been needed. Will of Emp 25H you stacked mages to ring of frost rages. I'd say overall mages have not been less useful than hunters. Nothing can beat our healthstones though.
    The difference between hybrid utility and pure utility is that bringing more hybrids increases their utility. Most pure utility comes in the form personal CDs, whereas the more Shadow Priests you bring the more hymns you have. The Mage example with Will is pretty much the only one I can think of where pure stacking utility was needed.

    As for Healthstones, that's an argument for having one Warlock, not multiple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    Even more disgusting, let's get rid of hybrid specs then.

    The whole raid cd paranoia is laughable, truth is no matter how u look at there's a real mass migration from hybrid specs to pure classes.
    Just go check on your own: forum, friends, guild mate. Its a bleeding wound.
    As much as it's 'bleeding' - look at the actual number of people playing that spec. Raidbots is an excellent tool for that: Imperial Vizier Zor'lok 25N is a fight that many guilds are still doing week in and week out (in order to progress on the later fights that are easier on Heroic). On Raidbots, All Parses, there are 2882 parses in the last 2 months for Shadow, and it's a fight that is just horrible for them. For Affliction, there are...2980. So with all the 'bleeding' there are only 100 more Affliction parses. If you look at All Fights combined, Shadow is literally the most popular spec in the game.

    Sure, you'll say, well, what about Boomkin, or Ele. I don't deny Ele is in a bad spot, but this isn't because of single target DPS, it has everything to do with their kit. Ele has never been and never will be, good at multi-dotting fights, and that's precisely what this tier is full of. Boomkin doesn't have the sheer numbers that Affliction or Shadow have, but they are an obvious case where the general populace underrates them and top, world-first level guilds 'stacked' them (relatively) for progression (Paragon had 2 and 1 Warlock for Sha, Method had 3 and 2 Warlocks).

    I don't really understand why hybrid taxes are 'pathetic' or 'disgusting' or 'bullshit'. Until Blizzard separates trees, talents and skills completely Hybrids will always be able to do things that Pures cannot. This is valuable. It's not amazing in Patchwerk, but in fights with Phasing, groups, or fights requiring more than just DPS, being able to do other things to handle RNG and corner cases merits rosters spots. That is what this tier was. You cannot move forward without a tax because that just leads to Cataclysm 2.0 - why would anyone bring more than 1 Warlock when a Shadow Priest does the same DPS (or better) along with being able to Disperse, Hymn, Mass Dispel, Leap of Faith, Void Shift etc.

    Didn't they do away with the concept of hybrid tax like two expansions ago?
    Officially, yes. Look at the results now though, and heal-OS Hybrids are the only specs lagging behind in DPS.
    http://darkcontent.wordpress.com/ - blog (updated Oct. 8, 2013). Latest post: T16H Affliction Trinket Rankings in Combination, done in SimC 540-4.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Rustjive View Post
    The difference between hybrid utility and pure utility is that bringing more hybrids increases their utility. Most pure utility comes in the form personal CDs, whereas the more Shadow Priests you bring the more hymns you have. The Mage example with Will is pretty much the only one I can think of where pure stacking utility was needed.

    As for Healthstones, that's an argument for having one Warlock, not multiple.
    There will always be class stacking in 25-man. It's just a luxury they have I think we'll never get around. In 10-man it hasn't been justified on many fights this tier. As long as we see this I think the game is in a good place.

    I really don't see much of a problem with hybrids now. While I do agree that they should be able to compete with pure DPS classes they have still been needed on most fights.

  6. #226
    I really hope that affli spec will be nerf.

    I am tired with the mentality :

    "Oh darling, we suck on pvp" -> "No pb, we won't touch to ur spec on pve"
    "Oh fuck morron, OP spec on pvp !" -> "No pb, 10% nerf on pve"

    ... ... ...

  7. #227
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustjive View Post
    The difference between hybrid utility and pure utility is that bringing more hybrids increases their utility. Most pure utility comes in the form personal CDs, whereas the more Shadow Priests you bring the more hymns you have. The Mage example with Will is pretty much the only one I can think of where pure stacking utility was needed.
    That and it's not like CC or personals are unique to pures. Look at DK's (level 90 talents) with CC's, and all hybrids having some personals (dispersion being the best of all).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rustjive View Post
    Sure, you'll say, well, what about Boomkin, or Ele. I don't deny Ele is in a bad spot, but this isn't because of single target DPS, it has everything to do with their kit. Ele has never been and never will be, good at multi-dotting fights, and that's precisely what this tier is full of. Boomkin doesn't have the sheer numbers that Affliction or Shadow have, but they are an obvious case where the general populace underrates them and top, world-first level guilds 'stacked' them (relatively) for progression (Paragon had 2 and 1 Warlock for Sha, Method had 3 and 2 Warlocks).
    Boomkin utility is probably one of the best in the game with their CC (something not unique to pures) row and their tranquility + symbiosis, and they have excellent multi-target damage (look at sha for instance).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rustjive View Post
    I don't really understand why hybrid taxes are 'pathetic' or 'disgusting' or 'bullshit'. Until Blizzard separates trees, talents and skills completely Hybrids will always be able to do things that Pures cannot. This is valuable. It's not amazing in Patchwerk, but in fights with Phasing, groups, or fights requiring more than just DPS, being able to do other things to handle RNG and corner cases merits rosters spots. That is what this tier was. You cannot move forward without a tax because that just leads to Cataclysm 2.0 - why would anyone bring more than 1 Warlock when a Shadow Priest does the same DPS (or better) along with being able to Disperse, Hymn, Mass Dispel, Leap of Faith, Void Shift etc.
    Personally I'd rather pures get some of that utility, or even better, get hybridized/eliminated completely, than have to rely on a "hybrid tax" to compensate. But I guess the latter design decision seems easier.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 06:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by VirTu4L View Post
    I really hope that affli spec will be nerf.

    I am tired with the mentality :

    "Oh darling, we suck on pvp" -> "No pb, we won't touch to ur spec on pve"
    "Oh fuck morron, OP spec on pvp !" -> "No pb, 10% nerf on pve"

    ... ... ...
    quoting another post of yours:

    Quote Originally Posted by VirTu4L View Post
    I am a mage

    Says enough...
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2012-12-29 at 06:46 PM.

  8. #228
    Pandaren Monk Evela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustjive View Post
    I don't deny Ele is in a bad spot, but this isn't because of single target DPS, it has everything to do with their kit. Ele has never been and never will be, good at multi-dotting fights, and that's precisely what this tier is full of.
    Elemental is behind for various reasons, and lacking single-target damage is indeed one of them. Plenty of other specs lack multidotting and perform fine. Elemental doesn't.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 07:51 PM ----------

    Compensating for good utility by lowering damage is bad design, which is why Blizzard has - agian, officially - moved away from it.
    Also, pure utility isn't as bad as most people seem to think. Sure, it can't compare to Elemental/Shadow/Boomkin utility, which may be too good, but it's definitely on par with Warrior/DK (and possibly Enh/Ret) utility.

  9. #229
    The Patient Kaizers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    Compensating for good utility by lowering damage is bad design, which is why Blizzard has - agian, officially - moved away from it.
    Also, pure utility isn't as bad as most people seem to think. Sure, it can't compare to Elemental/Shadow/Boomkin utility, which may be too good, but it's definitely on par with Warrior/DK (and possibly Enh/Ret) utility.
    Never really seen any posts confirming or denying the hybrid tax, all I can really see are results. At the moment most hybrid dps tend to be fairly weak. Also hybrid tax was never about utility, this is something the community came up with. Do you have a spec that is officially a tank/healer spec? Then you are a hybrid.

    I don't think this thread is ever going beyond mages/hybrids calling for warlock nerfs and warlocks saying they're fine.

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaizers View Post
    Never really seen any posts confirming or denying the hybrid tax, all I can really see are results. At the moment most hybrid dps tend to be fairly weak. Also hybrid tax was never about utility, this is something the community came up with. Do you have a spec that is officially a tank/healer spec? Then you are a hybrid.

    I don't think this thread is ever going beyond mages/hybrids calling for warlock nerfs and warlocks saying they're fine.
    That sums up about 99% of all threads. Someone calling for nerfs, and the target saying they're fine.
    After being Medieve the Uberpally for many years, finally shelved in favor of Belledanna, the Uberlock!!! (patent pending)
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  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaizers View Post
    Never really seen any posts confirming or denying the hybrid tax, all I can really see are results. At the moment most hybrid dps tend to be fairly weak. Also hybrid tax was never about utility, this is something the community came up with. Do you have a spec that is officially a tank/healer spec? Then you are a hybrid.

    I don't think this thread is ever going beyond mages/hybrids calling for warlock nerfs and warlocks saying they're fine.

    Scorch with moving should be baseline IMO, mages are very stationary as it is...
    Wish all casters were a little more stationary TBH. It takes away what was traditionally one of the big downsides to casters. (Source)
    Stationary may look good from a design theory perspective, but it's really not fun to play glued to the floor.
    At the end of the day, there aren't many ways we can challenge folks. If we can't make moving a challenge, we lose a big one. (Source)

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by ishk View Post
    Scorch with moving should be baseline IMO, mages are very stationary as it is...
    Wish all casters were a little more stationary TBH. It takes away what was traditionally one of the big downsides to casters. (Source)
    Stationary may look good from a design theory perspective, but it's really not fun to play glued to the floor.
    At the end of the day, there aren't many ways we can challenge folks. If we can't make moving a challenge, we lose a big one. (Source)
    Tbh KJC is more a quality of life thing than an actual dps increase, as affliction anyway. It does help, sure. And on some fights it helps alot, true. But it's not as big a difference as it sounds, dpswise.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Filth the Warlock View Post
    Tbh KJC is more a quality of life thing than an actual dps increase, as affliction anyway. It does help, sure. And on some fights it helps alot, true. But it's not as big a difference as it sounds, dpswise.

    Completely untrue. Without KJC, Demonology would be the top spec for Heroic raiding as it would out dps Affliction by several K. With KJC, Affliction never has to stop dpsing to move, and therefore out does Demonology.

  14. #234
    Mechagnome Xzan's Avatar
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    The affliction spec is in a weird state right now. It's pulling great numbers in PvE but as far as PvP goes, it's utter crap.
    In theory the solution could be simple - make dots hit harder without being dependant on Haunt and MG. Which gets complicated in multidotting situations...
    Workaround could be to limit the amount of dotted targets to three. And try to balance the numbers around that without making it stand out so much in PvE...

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Completely untrue. Without KJC, Demonology would be the top spec for Heroic raiding as it would out dps Affliction by several K. With KJC, Affliction never has to stop dpsing to move, and therefore out does Demonology.
    That's a fairly bold statement. Affliction was the top spec even before the KJC change, in general. Not that many fights have high movement. Demonology would certainly have more of a niche, but it wouldn't be any different than it was pre KJC buff.
    Last edited by EvreliaGaming; 2013-01-03 at 10:41 PM.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Completely untrue. Without KJC, Demonology would be the top spec for Heroic raiding as it would out dps Affliction by several K. With KJC, Affliction never has to stop dpsing to move, and therefore out does Demonology.
    Depends on the encounter ofc, as I mentioned. But on the average fight, trading that Malefic Grasp tick for a Life Tap is a very small dps loss. Unless you're horrible at utillizing movement correctly, I guess.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    That's a fairly bold statement. Affliction was the top spec even before the KJC change, in general. Not that many fights have high movement. Demonology would certainly have more of a niche, but it wouldn't be any different than it was pre KJC buff.

    There's nothing 'bold' about that statement at all. Even with Demonology having a broken mechanic in Simcraft (Shadowflame isn't scaling off of Meta, huge dps loss) and the garbage APL, these are the results on a 10 minute fight with 0% vary length and heavy movement: Demo vs Aff

    Keep in mind that once Simcraft fixes the issue with Meta scaling and I do some work on the APL, the Demo numbers are going to go up pretty dramatically, and they're already 3k ahead. Without KJC, Affliction would not be played as much as it is.

    All of that said, half the tier is borderline patchwerk so none of it really matters.
    Last edited by Teye; 2013-01-03 at 11:20 PM.

  18. #238
    The longer the fight the higher the chance that Aff beats Demo Teye. Aff does very well in long term fights due to spec efficiency(of which it is one of the highest in the game) and doesn't have to worry about damage spikes. Not to mention the damage bonus they get from utilizing Grimoire of Sacrifice.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by ColbaneX View Post
    The longer the fight the higher the chance that Aff beats Demo Teye. Aff does very well in long term fights due to spec efficiency(of which it is one of the highest in the game) and doesn't have to worry about damage spikes. Not to mention the damage bonus they get from utilizing Grimoire of Sacrifice.
    You do realize that 10 minutes is the longest setting Simcraft has, right? I gave Affliction the advantage by making the fight 10 minutes.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    How come Blizzard hasn't fixed this yet? On almost every single fight, Raidbots reports that Affliction is significantly ahead. Majority of fights it's on the top, and by a fair margin. This holds true for across all difficulties and sample sets (top 100/all), pretty much.
    Point is, there's not much doubt that Affliction is in a *too* good spot atm, compared to all other DPS (except for Arcane, maybe, but they're getting nerfed by a lot come 5.2).

    Sure, they nerfed GoSac. Which will result in a, what, 2.5% damage decrease? That's not at all enough to bring it in line.

    Anyways, to the point - 1) is Affliction really as good as I think it is or am I simply misinformed?
    2) If yes, why hasn't it been nerfed yet?
    3) Will it be nerfed in the near future (5.2 primarily) at all?
    No it's not.

    Look at 99th percentile on any fight, there are a few where it is ahead, but on many other classes wreck it.

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Stone...all/14/60/p99/

    It's just that more people know how to play Affliction Warlock properly than any other class. In fact Mages sim higher than Warlocks now.

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