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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    There's nothing 'bold' about that statement at all. Even with Demonology having a broken mechanic in Simcraft (Shadowflame isn't scaling off of Meta, huge dps loss) and the garbage APL, these are the results on a 10 minute fight with 0% vary length and heavy movement: Demo vs Aff

    Keep in mind that once Simcraft fixes the issue with Meta scaling and I do some work on the APL, the Demo numbers are going to go up pretty dramatically, and they're already 3k ahead. Without KJC, Affliction would not be played as much as it is.

    All of that said, half the tier is borderline patchwerk so none of it really matters.
    No, you're pulling numbers out of thin air. The action priority list for demo is about as useless as it is for Affliction.

    Yes, without KJC, Demo would be a better spec to play on very high movement fights (Read: Vizier, Garalon, Lei Shi, Tsulong). That does not equate to "Demo would be the best spec for heroic raiding". Very, very few fights in this game can be considered "high movement", and that's nothing special about this tier.
    Last edited by EvreliaGaming; 2013-01-04 at 12:55 AM.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    No, you're pulling numbers out of thin air. The action priority list for demo is about as useless as it is for Affliction.

    Yes, without KJC, Demo would be a better spec to play on very high movement fights (Read: Vizier, Garalon, Lei Shi, Tsulong). That does not equate to "Demo would be the best spec for heroic raiding". Very, very few fights in this game can be considered "high movement", and that's nothing special about this tier.

    Well, I won't bother explaining anything to you with sources ever again. No sense in trying when a "nope, you're wrong" is the best you can come up with.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Well, I won't bother explaining anything to you with sources ever again. No sense in trying when a "nope, you're wrong" is the best you can come up with.
    He's not pulling numbers out of thin air, just take a look through raidbots; Affliction is ahead on the overwhelming majority of encounters (of two that Demo lead, it's not down to mobility), and has been since before 5.1 when KJC was buffed. KJC isn't making the difference - it may now be adding incrementally to the gap - but it is purely and simply a more powerful spec for most encounters.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    He's not pulling numbers out of thin air, just take a look through raidbots; Affliction is ahead on the overwhelming majority of encounters (of two that Demo lead, it's not down to mobility), and has been since before 5.1 when KJC was buffed. KJC isn't making the difference - it may now be adding incrementally to the gap - but it is purely and simply a more powerful spec for most encounters.
    I know Shinafae was Demo for most (or all?) of progression - which was a top world 16/16H. I'd actually love to hear her rationale as to why she found it better than affliction, since most (not all) warlocks were affliction for most fights.


    Teye, this is about as friendly and honest of a statement as you'll get from me, so here goes: if you were less abrasive to people straight out from the getgo, people might be more inclined to take you seriously. I know I had to learn that lesson in the past, the hard way.

  5. #245
    When I make a statement and back it up with sources and the only response is "no, you're wrong" I get abrasive. You would to.

  6. #246
    Demo has way better mobility without KJC but it doesn't change the fact that Affliction does more damage single target. I'd also like to point out that Demo can do some crap damage on multi target fights like Will of Emps.

    I can see why Evrelia thinks you're wrong and I agree with him, but it's better to explain why because you can't expect everyone to understand what you mean. It makes it hard to continue the discussion without getting mad at each other.

    On the other hand I think voidspark makes a good point too. It's hard to take you seriously with the image you have built up, Teye. Remember you basically told me I was an idiot without explaining why. You can't really expect people to treat you better than Evrelia did here.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by emitchell29 View Post
    No it's not.

    Look at 99th percentile on any fight, there are a few where it is ahead, but on many other classes wreck it.

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Stone...all/14/60/p99/

    It's just that more people know how to play Affliction Warlock properly than any other class. In fact Mages sim higher than Warlocks now.
    Mages will pull ahead by a margin if it was a complete stand-still-and-nuke fight, but there are none of those. There's always adds or some soft movement that ruins an Arcane Mage, but doesn't matter much to a Warlock.
    I truely hope demonology won't pull ahead of affliction, I hate the spec.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    When I make a statement and back it up with sources and the only response is "no, you're wrong" I get abrasive. You would to.
    Your sources are high movement sims, evrelia and myself are looking at the other lower movement sims, and importantly real parses. Not providing the link is not just saying you're wrong, its taking for granted that you too have seen that data because it isn't some kind of hidden secret.

  9. #249
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    I know Shinafae was Demo for most (or all?) of progression - which was a top world 16/16H. I'd actually love to hear her rationale as to why she found it better than affliction, since most (not all) warlocks were affliction for most fights.
    In my opinion Affli is top on raibots mainly because almost all the top players are playing it (i.e many more samples, i.e much more chance to have kills with awesome RNG etc...). If they were all playing Demo or Destro it would be the more or less the same situation but with a different icon.

    Plus I highly doubt that Affli is the top spec for Terrace HM, but we will have to wait for WoL to update the rankings for it (planned for start of january according to the forums).
    Last edited by Zumzumzum; 2013-01-04 at 03:21 PM.
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  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    In my opinion Affli is top on raibots mainly because almost all the top players are playing it (i.e many more samples, i.e much more chance to have kills with awesome RNG etc...). If they were all playing Demo or Destro it would be the more or less the same situation but with a different icon.

    Plus I highly doubt that Affli is the top spec for Terrace HM, but we will have to wait for WoL to update the rankings for it (planned for start of january according to the forums).
    In my opinion aff works best on protectors and sha p1, rest I'd recommend demo or destro for tbh.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by emitchell29 View Post
    No it's not.

    Look at 99th percentile on any fight, there are a few where it is ahead, but on many other classes wreck it.

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Stone...all/14/60/p99/

    It's just that more people know how to play Affliction Warlock properly than any other class. In fact Mages sim higher than Warlocks now.
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Spiri...100/14/60/p99/

    I can link random raidbots as well.

  12. #252
    Maybe you should ask why destro has spells that cost a lot of mana

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by elicko View Post
    Maybe you should ask why destro has spells that cost a lot of mana
    Because it's a resource, not global capped spec. Think of your mana more like an Energy bar; because they were going to rename it Fel Energy or something to get that message across.

  14. #254
    idd, destro's mana bar is more like the energy bar of a rogue or the focus bar of a hunter.

  15. #255
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    An energy bar that almost never gets empty, rogues would like that
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  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Micke View Post
    In my opinion aff works best on protectors and sha p1, rest I'd recommend demo or destro for tbh.
    While this is true it's easy to justify Affli, especially in 10-man, for all of the fights. With that in mind I'm sure a lot of people didn't go Demo/Destro for their first kills so logs are not really going to prove much more than the viability of the specs.

    And tbh, to win an argument over what spec is better at which fights you need to first explain what exactly that spec is better at and then prove it with logs. Like for example you can say Affli is better at Protectors if you sit on boss but Destro is probably better if you're on add duty (when the adds start spawning faster your dots won't tick a lot and it's easy to miss DS to spam Haunt).

  17. #257
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    In my opinion Affli is top on raibots mainly because almost all the top players are playing it (i.e many more samples, i.e much more chance to have kills with awesome RNG etc...). If they were all playing Demo or Destro it would be the more or less the same situation but with a different icon.
    I know all of this, which again is why I was wondering why some warlocks went Demo for many fights. If affliction weren't so good, I wouldn't be wondering

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    In my opinion Affli is top on raibots mainly because almost all the top players are playing it (i.e many more samples, i.e much more chance to have kills with awesome RNG etc...). If they were all playing Demo or Destro it would be the more or less the same situation but with a different icon.

    Plus I highly doubt that Affli is the top spec for Terrace HM, but we will have to wait for WoL to update the rankings for it (planned for start of january according to the forums).
    Well almost everyone plays affli:

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...00000000000000

    Over 80% of all logs have an affli warlock. It's close to 90% on some fights even.

    It means that those mediocre and not top players mainly also play affli.

    And top players are top players. Mages have topplayers, rogues have top players, so do hunters, shadows, and even the worst dps inclass ingame, shamans.

  19. #259
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    So, top players play aff. Also mid and bot. And how many top players play demo? or destro? Mid, bottom players? Or do Aff have a significant amount of parses that the other specs don't have to draw off of?
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  20. #260
    My view is that aff is the most all arround spec, and most locks play that for convenience aswell. Demo and destro can shine on some fights and be average on others, while aff shines on most except a very few.

    I think 5,2 GoSac nerf will take some spotlight from aff.

    That being said I think we are different than Fire Mage pre nerf, most mages played fire and forgot the other specs, while warlocks even thou aff is dominant there is a healthy population of Demo locks, destro not so much but popularity is rising.
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