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  1. #41
    Something else to consider. Affliction does very little overkill so most of the numbers on WoL represent actual contributions to the raid. Many other classes have a sizable amount of overkill that inflates their numbers unrealistically. Destro for example has quite a large amount of overkill compared to the other two Warlock specs.

  2. #42
    Pandaren Monk Serpent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    What's your problem with affliction being good? Is your ego hurt because he puts bigger total numbers then you do? As Sookiie said - it's good that you are not responsible for class balance.
    Not in the slightest. Also - from where do you have an impression that I have a problem? Merely asking questions, trying to start a discussion.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-25 at 05:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by noaim View Post
    Ok, so we concluded that affliction performs well overall, but on what fights is it so ridicilously overpowered that it warrants a huge nerf? Or is being wellrounded the new overpowered? How do you want to nerf that? "Oh no, a spec performs well in multiple situations, nerf it!". Among the dumbest shit I've ever read tbh.
    -
    The problem is, NO OTHER SPEC has the same level of "versitility". Great (if not imbalanced) single target damage, best multi-dotting in-game, better than average AoE (that really shines on some fights), great movement etc. etc.
    There's no situation in which Affliction is at a disadvantage (average performance on Garalon is the closest it gets); in fact, it's above average at anything. No other spec has that luxury.
    ...............

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-25 at 05:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirque View Post
    Here's where you're wrong. Single target damage is great, but no, depending on how you define multidotting (which, most people, really mean to say "cleave" by) we're far from the best. From a 10man perspective, Affliction (or locks in general, really) are very, very niche. We only have Sha of Fear left to do, but there's been quite some fights where I sat because I don't bring the buffs, or I don't bring the utility, or, if I did, other classes brought better utility (cleave damage, for example, or aoe). Though I can do really, really, really good DPS on fights like Ambershaper hc and I am by far top, my utility makes me unfavorable on that specific fight as opposed to a fire mage, a warrior, or even a moonkin. For our progress, we decided to sit me for this reason. Just an example.

    You guys forget it's not ALL about damage. If it were, then yes, we'd be blatantly OP.

    When I was playing 25s, which now has been quite awhile, I remember I always felt like "the turret", you brought me for sheer damage and nothing else. There were only a handful of fights where warlocks were desirable for their utility and TBH in this content I can think of only one fight where I can say I have been *necessary* to a kill, which was Protectors hc (edit: and granted, Emperors I suppose). On a lot of other fights I have made myself sit (I'm officer) so we could get all buffs and utility other classes bring to further the progress, and in every fight I can argue that every class we brought was necessary to further the kill in terms of raid buffs, debuffs, raid cooldowns, or other utility such as kiting abilities, cleave burst and the like. I can't for the life of me find reasons to bring an affliction lock over our ele shaman in the majority of fights on 10man.

    People here claim elemental shaman are bad. No, they're not. Sure, they're gonna do less damage than us. On the other hand, they bring spell haste and hero, they bring healing tide, they bring offhealing when so necessary, they bring rather strong aoe, they bring totems. They bring stuff. We'd never sit our ele shaman on progress. We may sit our aff lock, though.


    And that to me is the biggest shortcoming to my class - I'd gladly trade some of my damage for utility, for superior cleave, for better buffs to the raid, for anything at all to make me useful beyond healthstones, summoning stones and sheer output.
    You're arguing that, because Warlocks don't bring utility (they do, and assuming you have a balanced raid comp, you should have all buffs covered as well), they should do more damage? That's what the hybrid tax is. And it was put down years ago.
    Last edited by Serpent; 2012-12-25 at 04:31 PM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by link4117 View Post
    Similarly would you like your class to lose 6.5k just because? Aff isn't OP in my mind. They have good fights and bad fights like the rest of the classes. It's just that their bad fights aren't as bad as other classes may have. And if it's "only" 6.5k then is it something that should we should be concerned about in the first place? I think there's very little merit to such discussions since GC posted that aff may be a little too high and some other classes a little too low. Either way, 5% is a huge number, especially when you take into account that people min/max for much much less of an increase. Your post, to me, reads like you just want locks nerfed.
    Oh come on. Of course Affli is straight out overpowered. It's simply not understandable why a ranged specc does 15% more damage on average than another.

    Here's a pure single target fight:

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Imperial_...00000000000000

    You see, affli about 15% ahead of all other three caster hybrids.

    Next single target fight, same results:
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Blade_Lor...00000000000000

    And comparing affli/demo to elementals, shadows and balance druids is always the same result: the only scenario, where affli is less than 10% ahead, is multi dotting fights. Elemental toally lacks multidotting, so it's just on every boss 15% ahead of elemental, sometimes even more, very few times a less than 10% (on AOE stays the only case). On some fights, it's even 30% difference to elemental (those are the extremely affli friendly fights like elegon).

    Those little nerf of 2.5% won't matter, nor will the little buff to elemental. In the end, it will be at best a 10% difference with 5.2. Still a lot of difference, making warlocks most desirable and hybrid caster really not desirable in 25m raiding.

    Something went really out of control lately.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-25 at 05:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    [/COLOR]
    You're arguing that, because Warlocks don't bring utility (they do, and assuming you have a balanced raid comp, you should have all buffs covered as well), they should do more damage? That's what the hybrid tax is. And it was put down years ago.
    Hyrbid tax still exists and that's why all 4 pures all still the best dds ingame.

    That's not for discussion. The question is more like: ranged are already much more desirable than melees, especially in 10m. Why the hell is affli so much better than melees?

    Warlocks have high damage reduce effects so they take less damage than most other speccs. On top of that, ranged already take less damage than melees and in most cases, the tasks that need to be done are ranged friendly. Even on fights like Garalon (very melee friendly), a group without ranged can a lot easier kill the group than a group of melees.

    Something is currently broken. There's no sense in taking melees except for not disenchanting their items.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    Oh come on. Of course Affli is straight out overpowered. It's simply not understandable why a ranged specc does 15% more damage on average than another.

    Here's a pure single target fight:

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Imperial_...00000000000000

    You see, affli about 15% ahead of all other three caster hybrids.

    Next single target fight, same results:
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Blade_Lor...00000000000000

    And comparing affli/demo to elementals, shadows and balance druids is always the same result: the only scenario, where affli is less than 10% ahead, is multi dotting fights. Elemental toally lacks multidotting, so it's just on every boss 15% ahead of elemental, sometimes even more, very few times a less than 10% (on AOE stays the only case). On some fights, it's even 30% difference to elemental (those are the extremely affli friendly fights like elegon).

    Those little nerf of 2.5% won't matter, nor will the little buff to elemental. In the end, it will be at best a 10% difference with 5.2. Still a lot of difference, making warlocks most desirable and hybrid caster really not desirable in 25m raiding.

    Something went really out of control lately.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-25 at 05:58 PM ----------



    Hyrbid tax still exists and that's why all 4 pures all still the best dds ingame.

    That's not for discussion. The question is more like: ranged are already much more desirable than melees, especially in 10m. Why the hell is affli so much better than melees?

    Warlocks have high damage reduce effects so they take less damage than most other speccs. On top of that, ranged already take less damage than melees and in most cases, the tasks that need to be done are ranged friendly. Even on fights like Garalon (very melee friendly), a group without ranged can a lot easier kill the group than a group of melees.

    Something is currently broken. There's no sense in taking melees except for not disenchanting their items.
    The hybrid tax doesn't exist "on purpose". Pures pull ahead because they have more specs to choose from, thus a higher likelihood of at least one of them being good. Rogues are middle of the pack, and mages too come 5.2.

  5. #45
    if you look at the top 10 on every fight and raid size you will see much more mages there, depending on the fight there is not that much difference so a nerf is not needed for warlocks, you also have to take into account what gear they have and you cant really compare one class to another as all have strengths and weakness's and also player skill.

  6. #46
    Still no answer on how to nerf a class that is wellrounded, without making it shit, only whine so far. Also, what difference for the class as a whole does it make if one spec is good overall, or one spec is good at X and another at Y? Except saving you the trouble of respeccing and possibly reforging, how does it make a difference? Would you be happy if warlocks repair costs were higher, because they dont have to respec as often so they need to use their gold elsewhere for it to be fair?

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by noaim View Post
    Still no answer on how to nerf a class that is wellrounded, without making it shit, only whine so far. Also, what difference for the class as a whole does it make if one spec is good overall, or one spec is good at X and another at Y? Except saving you the trouble of respeccing and possibly reforging, how does it make a difference? Would you be happy if warlocks repair costs were higher, because they dont have to respec as often so they need to use their gold elsewhere for it to be fair?

    Affliction is not well rounded. I'm saying that as someone who has played Affliction, and had my main as a Warlock for years. It is over powered right now, and for the sake of game balance, it needs to be nerfed.

    To all of the people bitching that Affliction doesn't need a nerf, stop being blind sheep. Stop blindly praising your own class, and look at the big picture. We're OP as fuck, and it needs to change.

  8. #48
    You cannot compare parses in this way, because you're not taking into account the amount of players raiding with each class/spec or variety of skill within that number. Warlock is a somewhat unforgiving class to learn, especially if you are new to the class - due to this the number of people playing it is much smaller, and the number of people playing it in a heroic raiding environment is even smaller. Player retention is low for Warlocks. The numbers are skewed due to a smaller player pool and a narrower skill distribution within those players.

    That said, I don't mind a small nerf, I just hope we don't end up horribly unbalanced or forced to use some clunky mechanic again. We are in the best place balance- and quality-of-life-wise that we've been in years. Do not want to lose that, at least not this soon.

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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskmoon View Post
    You cannot compare parses in this way, because you're not taking into account the amount of players raiding with each class/spec or variety of skill within that number. Warlock is a somewhat unforgiving class to learn, especially if you are new to the class - due to this the number of people playing it is much smaller, and the number of people playing it in a heroic raiding environment is even smaller. Player retention is low for Warlocks. The numbers are skewed due to a smaller player pool and a narrower skill distribution within those players.

    That said, I don't mind a small nerf, I just hope we don't end up horribly unbalanced or forced to use some clunky mechanic again. We are in the best place balance- and quality-of-life-wise that we've been in years. Do not want to lose that, at least not this soon.
    It makes plenty of sense comparing parses in this way. Assuming you read heroic recordings only, you're almost certainly looking at parses of players who knew (for the most part) what they were doing; you're guaranteed a certain level of skill.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by noaim View Post
    Still no answer on how to nerf a class that is wellrounded, without making it shit, only whine so far. Also, what difference for the class as a whole does it make if one spec is good overall, or one spec is good at X and another at Y? Except saving you the trouble of respeccing and possibly reforging, how does it make a difference? Would you be happy if warlocks repair costs were higher, because they dont have to respec as often so they need to use their gold elsewhere for it to be fair?
    A handful of my own suggestions that could possibly be used:

    PvE nerfs:
    - Nerf/remove haunt damage modifier
    - Nerf execute
    - Remove soulshard gain when killing a target
    - Remove the "instant-apply dots at the cost of a soul shard" effect.
    - Only have Shadow bolt/soul fire, incinerate/chaos bolt, and malific grasp/soul drain on Kil'jaeden's cunning, but remove speed reduction. No SoC, UA or immolate.
    - Buff UA and Corr damage, but nerf duration of agony. Nerf MG and and soul drain to make up for the buff.
    - Potentially change scaling.

    Aff PvP buffs:
    - Buff survivability choices. Especially soul link with pet sac. Give passive survivability, and split unending resolve in two spells.
    - Buff passiv health regen from siphon life glyph, potentially make it scale with other spells.
    - Nerf health cost of tier 4 talents.
    - Buff UA damage/silence when dispelled.
    - Buff haunt damage.

    Buff Destro overall and buff Soul fire and touch of chaos scaling.
    Last edited by Funkthepunk; 2012-12-25 at 06:13 PM.

  11. #51
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    Some of those would help to kill the fun factor of the spec (like they did with Fire); a flat out damage decrease would be the way forward in my opinion. To the dots, to Malefic Grasp, whatever.
    Last edited by Serpent; 2012-12-25 at 06:37 PM.

  12. #52
    and you got that in the form of the GoSac nerf.
    Whats the point of this thread now?
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confined View Post
    and you got that in the form of the GoSac nerf.
    Whats the point of this thread now?
    Arguing that 2.5% isn't going to be enough.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Affliction is not well rounded. I'm saying that as someone who has played Affliction, and had my main as a Warlock for years. It is over powered right now, and for the sake of game balance, it needs to be nerfed.

    To all of the people bitching that Affliction doesn't need a nerf, stop being blind sheep. Stop blindly praising your own class, and look at the big picture. We're OP as fuck, and it needs to change.
    Affliction IS well rounded. As someone who's been playing a warlock for 8 years, a game for 8 years, this is by far the most rounded spec since WoW's release. It competes at the top for single target, 2 target, 3 target, 5+ AoE, burst, low and high movement. The spec has ZERO problems. It's not incredibly OP. It just has all pro's and no con's making it able to compete in every environment that Blizzard throws at us right now. If it needed a nerf, the 5% to GoSac was a good choice because Afflictions single target was a little ahead.
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  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Palmz View Post
    Affliction IS well rounded. As someone who's been playing a warlock for 8 years, a game for 8 years, this is by far the most rounded spec since WoW's release. It competes at the top for single target, 2 target, 3 target, 5+ AoE, burst, low and high movement. The spec has ZERO problems. It's not incredibly OP. It just has all pro's and no con's making it able to compete in every environment that Blizzard throws at us right now. If it needed a nerf, the 5% to GoSac was a good choice because Afflictions single target was a little ahead.
    This^ curious it's mostly demo locks who think afflic needs nerf. There should be threads about how underpowered destruction is.

    Also you nerf afflic much more and you'll break it for anyone who wants the option of people playing it in pvp, not that anyone in their right mind would play afflic in pvp as it stands.

    Ps arcane mages are stronger single target, so is frost in reg gear
    Last edited by Gohzerlock; 2012-12-25 at 08:35 PM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Palmz View Post
    Affliction IS well rounded. As someone who's been playing a warlock for 8 years, a game for 8 years, this is by far the most rounded spec since WoW's release. It competes at the top for single target, 2 target, 3 target, 5+ AoE, burst, low and high movement. The spec has ZERO problems. It's not incredibly OP. It just has all pro's and no con's making it able to compete in every environment that Blizzard throws at us right now. If it needed a nerf, the 5% to GoSac was a good choice because Afflictions single target was a little ahead.
    This seems far too much like the ever present argument ~ x is fine, just everyone else needs to be brought up to it's level. Historically, this has not been the case and affliction will see a nerf in some department. Do I personally feel affliction is well rounded? Yes, but I'm also an affliction warlock. The rotation may have an incredibly high skill ceiling for the absolute maximum dps threshold, but it's also fairly forgiving for sloppier players, and those are the numbers blizzard sees unfortunately.

    Single target? Affliction wins hands down. 3 targets? Go Gosupp and enjoy. Destro has a niche that most aren't making use of in the cleave department, but overall it cannot hold a candle to afflictions dominance. I personally feel the subsequent nerfs in 5.2 can be traced mostly to the change made to KJC, it's simply too powerful in conjunction with gosac. You also make the point that affliction is "all pro's and no con's" saying that it isn't a problem. Well, it kinda is. Can a master demo lock outpace an affliction in a few of the heroics? Yes. But, there really isn't too much of an option specwise on the majority of the fights, and that's what blizzard wants. The ability to choose and not suffer a huge penalty.

    Instead of lobbying against affliction nerfs in 5.2, the board should focus on ways to bring destro's single target up to par, mediate the disparity between demo's aoe and single target, and somehow try to figure out how the changes won't negatively impact pvp. It's harder than it seems, and a 10% nerf to Gosac seems hardly the way to go about it, in my opinion. Much less the backlash this has on Destro's use of the talent.

    In conclusion, is affliction incredibly OP? No, that's why you aren't seeing "incredible" nerfs. Is it a tad overtuned? Absolutely, and to argue that point is only showing bias, unless better evidence can be provided stating the contrary.... which I've yet to see.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezzyo View Post
    This seems far too much like the ever present argument ~ x is fine, just everyone else needs to be brought up to it's level. Historically, this has not been the case and affliction will see a nerf in some department. Do I personally feel affliction is well rounded? Yes, but I'm also an affliction warlock. The rotation may have an incredibly high skill ceiling for the absolute maximum dps threshold, but it's also fairly forgiving for sloppier players, and those are the numbers blizzard sees unfortunately.

    Single target? Affliction wins hands down. 3 targets? Go Gosupp and enjoy. Destro has a niche that most aren't making use of in the cleave department, but overall it cannot hold a candle to afflictions dominance. I personally feel the subsequent nerfs in 5.2 can be traced mostly to the change made to KJC, it's simply too powerful in conjunction with gosac. You also make the point that affliction is "all pro's and no con's" saying that it isn't a problem. Well, it kinda is. Can a master demo lock outpace an affliction in a few of the heroics? Yes. But, there really isn't too much of an option specwise on the majority of the fights, and that's what blizzard wants. The ability to choose and not suffer a huge penalty.

    Instead of lobbying against affliction nerfs in 5.2, the board should focus on ways to bring destro's single target up to par, mediate the disparity between demo's aoe and single target, and somehow try to figure out how the changes won't negatively impact pvp. It's harder than it seems, and a 10% nerf to Gosac seems hardly the way to go about it, in my opinion. Much less the backlash this has on Destro's use of the talent.

    In conclusion, is affliction incredibly OP? No, that's why you aren't seeing "incredible" nerfs. Is it a tad overtuned? Absolutely, and to argue that point is only showing bias, unless better evidence can be provided stating the contrary.... which I've yet to see.
    It's true that blizzard wants us to be able to choose freely but in all honesty once a spec/talent is on top that's what anyone in a top guild will play.

    Also as an aside, I'm seeing so many people that call themselves "aff/demo/destro warlocks". I don't really understand why you wouldn't play the best spec for the boss your currently on, as a pure class our versatility is a big strength why wouldn't you take advantage of it?

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    Arguing that 2.5% isn't going to be enough.
    How do you know that ? Do you just want to gut the class down for the heck of it ?... I don't get that reasoning.
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Sorry, but you're clueless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Blindly raging that locks are being "nerfed into the ground" ... is rather ignorant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    ... stop making shit up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    You really have no clue how class balance works. Its sad how wrong you are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    To all of the people bitching that Affliction doesn't need a nerf, stop being blind sheep. Stop blindly praising your own class, and look at the big picture.
    and finally...

    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    You really need to lose the attitude.


    LOL. Let's not forget this gem of a thread...

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ngeance-moment

    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Yeah, because popping AV right before you go into 2nd phase isn't a total waste or anything. -.-
    ^^ above calling others "ignorant" !! Honestly, you're not even worth a constructive response at this point.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Confined View Post
    How do you know that ? Do you just want to gut the class down for the heck of it ?... I don't get that reasoning.
    Person obviously prefers playing a different spec and wants his or her spec to be top dps.. It's funny I see some of the same people complaining about how op afflic is but in other messages say demo out performs it in most scenarios.

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