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  1. #61
    Pandaren Monk Serpent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gohzerlock View Post
    Person obviously prefers playing a different spec and wants his or her spec to be top dps.. It's funny I see some of the same people complaining about how op afflic is but in other messages say demo out performs it in most scenarios.
    I'm playing Affliction thankyouverymuch.
    I don't just want the spec "down for the hell of it".

  2. #62
    Epic! klogaroth's Avatar
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    Looking over the parses for this tier it's clear that affliction is performing very well, but it's hardly runaway winner. The spec seems to do so well because it has answers for many different scenarios, especially once talent switching comes into play. It's not the runaway winner on many fights, but nor does it ever perform particularly badly. It's not far from where it needs to be really.

    A small adjustment is probably needed to keep affliction in line. This may become more apparent and have more behind it once we see what next tiers gear looks like. If left alone it's perfectly possible that using next tiers loot affliction would have started to move way ahead of the pack on DPS.

    Unless it's nerfed into the ground completely I'm almost always going to prefer GoSac for affliction, because it's the talent I like the most even if that tier was perfectly balanced on all fights. In the same way that I really like GoSup as a concept for demo, big demons for the demony spec. This is just my personal preference though, it would be nice to see other options on that tier have less of a DPS gap between them.



    One of the big draws of the other 2 talents was the fact that you would lose more DPS on the move with GoSac. Now that KJC has been changed that's no longer the case, so I feel they deserve a bit of love. Thinking about it the current proposed nerf probably leaves us more or less where we were before the KJC change on heavy movement fights, perhaps even slightly ahead still.
    Last edited by klogaroth; 2012-12-25 at 11:28 PM.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    How come Blizzard hasn't fixed this yet? On almost every single fight, Raidbots reports that Affliction is significantly ahead. Majority of fights it's on the top, and by a fair margin. This holds true for across all difficulties and sample sets (top 100/all), pretty much.
    Point is, there's not much doubt that Affliction is in a *too* good spot atm, compared to all other DPS (except for Arcane, maybe, but they're getting nerfed by a lot come 5.2).

    Sure, they nerfed GoSac. Which will result in a, what, 2.5% damage decrease? That's not at all enough to bring it in line.

    Anyways, to the point - 1) is Affliction really as good as I think it is or am I simply misinformed?
    2) If yes, why hasn't it been nerfed yet?
    3) Will it be nerfed in the near future (5.2 primarily) at all?
    They're too busy nerfing mages, and letting the hybrid classes swim at the bottom of the barrel to do anything about warlocks.

    But no, really, when was the last time warlocks were really nerfed? It's been ages.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chareoss View Post
    I for one, do not agree with the choices they have made simply to keep people playing longer. The whole reason the drop rates are so low and loot is based on RNG is to keep us raiding longer and our subscriptions ticking.

  4. #64
    Can someone please just close this thread. This discussion leads to nothing.

  5. #65
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moohorn View Post
    But no, really, when was the last time warlocks were really nerfed? It's been ages.
    Supermassive 12% nerf before Cataclysm. Drain Life nerf in 4.1. Healing nerfs in Cataclysm 4.0.6.

    Then it wasn't nerfed anymore, because in 4.2 and 4.3 warlocks were quite near the bottom of the barrel, so they didn't "need" more nerfs. In MOP beta there were many, many pretty big nerfs including a huge AoE nerf.

    Quote Originally Posted by luckydevours View Post
    Can someone please just close this thread. This discussion leads to nothing.
    Agreed. Any points I put in were responded to with insults, its obvious the "nerf" camp can't see any sense.

  6. #66
    Kiljaedens cunning.. Either make the movement penalty something like 50% OR remove the passive and turn it into once a minute activate 6 seconds worth of being able to cast on the move.

    Every class needs weaknesses, not having a weakness will make raidcomps start stacking that particular class TBC style. The one exception would possibly be top end guilds where each raider has 5 alts in BiS gear were the optimal class for each encounter can be used. Any normal guild would prefer a jack of all trades with no weaknesses who can perform in all scenarios.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by luckydevours View Post
    Can someone please just close this thread. This discussion leads to nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post

    Agreed. Any points I put in were responded to with insults, its obvious the "nerf" camp can't see any sense.
    The thread in and of itsself is a subject as any other, if well argued and discussed it's a fine topic. I've seen a lack of discussion in parts and disparaging remarks, but no actual insulting or anything (unless I missed it in posts, I'm only human). If you feel a post is beyond the boundaries of what we allow just report it and a mod will automatically have a look at it and act if necessary.

    Be sure though that any topic that calls for nerfs to a class (or spec in this case) will be watched closer then normal for flaming and other bad behaviour anyways. If things deteriorate to unwanted levels I will not hesitate to close the thread.
    Your Soul Shall Suffer! ||| Forum rules ||| New England Patriots

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    A handful of my own suggestions that could possibly be used:

    PvE nerfs:
    - Nerf/remove haunt damage modifier
    - Nerf execute
    - Remove soulshard gain when killing a target
    - Remove the "instant-apply dots at the cost of a soul shard" effect.
    - Only have Shadow bolt/soul fire, incinerate/chaos bolt, and malific grasp/soul drain on Kil'jaeden's cunning, but remove speed reduction. No SoC, UA or immolate.
    - Buff UA and Corr damage, but nerf duration of agony. Nerf MG and and soul drain to make up for the buff.
    - Potentially change scaling.

    Aff PvP buffs:
    - Buff survivability choices. Especially soul link with pet sac. Give passive survivability, and split unending resolve in two spells.
    - Buff passiv health regen from siphon life glyph, potentially make it scale with other spells.
    - Nerf health cost of tier 4 talents.
    - Buff UA damage/silence when dispelled.
    - Buff haunt damage.

    Buff Destro overall and buff Soul fire and touch of chaos scaling.
    WROOOOONG WAY.

    PVE:

    1) Are you real? Haunt usage + its 25% modifier is where the difficulty and complexity of the spec relies. Its like throwing away ignite mechanic or mana management for arcane. Or rune for DKs and the GCD-Capped situations with rogues under bl/ CD and so ons. This really, is a fail.

    2)Well if it really matters, its a tiny part of our damage done anyway anmd this would quite an overkill PVP wise else it would be not a really bad idea.

    3)Again? Is the same of Haunt usage. Its the spec DEPTH, those little things that make you better/worse then another guy playing your same spec. Awfull.

    4)The SS-SB thing was funny for me at first, then i realized its quite retarded. May sound reasonalbe to me. Would help in multidots only btw.

    5)Ahaha no. What would be the point? Affliction is LATELY (just since the KJC talent boost) so strong in overall because OF malefic grasps made while moving.Reverting Kil'Jaeden would put this spec where it was at first, not very viable everytime u have to move. No need to nerf anything; just the talent. Hope some guys here can clear his mind on this one.

    6)AAAAANDDD that's a huge pve boost. Pve too. Pandemic. A few more GCD on keeping up Agony as a trade off for increased damage from UA and corruption? HELL YEAH GIMME THAT.

    7)A bit "tedious" solution. It would require a revamp and it won't happen 'till next xpac.

    PVP BUFF

    -...WHAT? Like Dark Regene + glyphed healthstones + Unending resolve + Sac Pact aren't strong enough already.
    - Would help but its not where affliction really lacks in.
    - Not really needed.
    - Could work, Dots damage in pvp are pathetic.
    - And by how much? Because..a train of Haunts hit hard. Very hard.

    Pvp the problem is simple. You want to damage? You need to channel.

    Channel in this PVP.

    Channel.

    You get that?

    Btw, i shall repeat myself that beeing nerfed in pve because youre good as overall its idiotic. For issues like this, you FIX broken classes first.
    In the other hands, if we were TOP performers 16 times out of 16, then nerfs would be deserved hands down.
    Also remind that if Demo and Destruction were closer to Affliction, then there would be already less Affliction dominance because well, instread of 80% of locks playing this spec you could see a 33% 33% 33%.

    But then, u would just jump in here because the Warlock Class should be nerfed because it has the luxury of 3 specs doing top stuff while other classes don't.
    Last edited by Purpleisbetter; 2012-12-26 at 12:04 AM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Agreed. Any points I put in were responded to with insults, its obvious the "nerf" camp can't see any sense.
    Or some would like for us to actually have three specs? According to not too old of a thread here on mmoc(http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-per-encounter) currently there's only one - affliction, the other two may shine once in a blue moon, but even then not so much brighter that one could expect.
    Last edited by whi; 2012-12-26 at 12:05 AM.

  10. #70
    Epic! klogaroth's Avatar
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    I forgot to say - specs like affliction also have decent opportunities to gain DPS by doing certain special things. Things which aren't always a brilliant idea in reality, but will boost personal DPS. Things like pointless multi-dotting (protectors anyone?). Or ignoring things which aren't to live very long, or don't have a damage buff (elegon much?). Even standing in dangerous places to do more DPS (grand empress add phase).

    This is generally true of any spec which does lots of damage with dots, or specs which might lose a decent amount of DPS from switching to adds.

    It can sometimes be really hard, if not impossible, to filter out all the logs of people being scumbag DPS in order to get ranked. If you could filter out these, things might even up a bit.

  11. #71
    What i don't get is why locks get KJ, casting while moving seems a bit of when you already have a spamable filler when on the move, fel flame is currently way stronger than the instant SWP SP have, plus they have the instant 3 dots in one gcd. Having their main filler do the same amount of damage on the move is one reason why locks are currently op. Mannoroth is also troubling, your aoe spell gain a totally new possiblity by hiting pretty much every thing in a room, they can spam it on unsok and make them by far the best charge damage dealer on elegon. KJC should have a real down side or work like shaman's spirit walk, on use, and thought many don't see the opness of mannoroth this is primarily due to the fact that it is used on a handfull of fights atm, but in all those fights it puts the lock in such a good position. Elegon/unsok are fights where multi doting is already prominent but locks go past that and turn multidoting to solid aoe(which is better). Incuring a small cd on your aoe spell when you have mannoroth would put this talent in check, but if we look back at encounters of previous tiers, mannoroth would have been massive on a lot of those fights(ofc this tier it is not that op but we never know about next tier).

  12. #72
    All guilds stacking warlocks like crazy, must be something wrong with us.

  13. #73
    Pandaren Monk Serpent's Avatar
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    Nothing wrong with KJC. Perfectly fine - all three level 90 talents are well-represented, and it would be silly to change that.

  14. #74
    Still trying to figure out what the OP is trying to accomplish. Posting a bit too much for a troll. But I'll bite.

    Your raging about overpowerness but I don't think you even know what that means. Destruction was very strong in late end-game BC, but even BM hunters and Combat/Hemo(rare) rogues caught up to an extent in Sunwell (played a hunter then, Archi Bow + Drums + Arp = $$). Warlocks are nowhere near what BM Hunters and DPS Deathknights were during WOTLK release, this is probably the epitome of overpowered/broken.

    I can see why people are curious about warlocks being strong. They were strong in T11, even after Soul Fire removal for affliction and it turning to spell damage increase for Destruction. They are strong this tier. I think it is mostly because the end-raid fights, work so well for warlocks. Will, Empress and Sha - ALL have adds to get a refill of all soul shards: which is more haunts, Soulburn: Soul Swaps and more flexibility. Remember melee whining about T11? Blizz made Firelands, melee friendly, and warlock dominance was rarely there, yet mages were stronger,AND warlocks were nerfed again. This lead to some warlocks being pushed into running Demonolgy for Moonwell Chalice + Meta combo.

    My reasoning why warlocks are "strong" now? It was mentioned earlier with the mentioning of Shadowflame. Our class design was circled around that ability, and our damage was reduced to focus around it. There was a blue post from way back, of him mentioning that, and the warlock community kind of just took it. Even though Xelnoth is gone now, warlocks finally had a Blizzard staffer that got the grasp of warlocks. No Shadowflame, Malefic Grasp (with the positive reaction of the Drain Life spec in T11) and a better Soul Shard usage system. I'm glad warlocks scale well, I disliked the after BC era of warlocks being gods in the beginning of the xpac and the mage (as a majority) destroying the next few raid tiers.



    ^ TL;DR? Wait for 5.2 test raids with ilvl scaling. Stop making Blizzard knee jerk with warlocks. Didn't even need to Ad Hom.

  15. #75
    The Lightbringer Seezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    How come Blizzard hasn't fixed this yet? On almost every single fight, Raidbots reports that Affliction is significantly ahead. Majority of fights it's on the top, and by a fair margin. This holds true for across all difficulties and sample sets (top 100/all), pretty much.
    Point is, there's not much doubt that Affliction is in a *too* good spot atm, compared to all other DPS (except for Arcane, maybe, but they're getting nerfed by a lot come 5.2).

    Sure, they nerfed GoSac. Which will result in a, what, 2.5% damage decrease? That's not at all enough to bring it in line.

    Anyways, to the point - 1) is Affliction really as good as I think it is or am I simply misinformed?
    2) If yes, why hasn't it been nerfed yet?
    3) Will it be nerfed in the near future (5.2 primarily) at all?
    OP in almost every single fight? Go look at World of logs. Which Raidbots is based off of.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...t_of_Fear/dps/
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...an_Vaults/dps/

    So if this is the sample set, then affliction doesn't look OP at all. What people are seeing is locks in a place they aren't used to seeing them. And yes, make sure you select 25H.

    I trust a site where you can actually see the top 100 parses over one that just says it.
    "1 in 4 Americans are skeptical on climate change...who gives a shit? That doesn't matter. You don't need other people's opinions on a fact. You may as well have a poll asking: Which number is bigger? 5 or 15? Do Owls exist? Are there hats?"

  16. #76
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seezer View Post
    What people are seeing is locks in a place they aren't used to seeing them. And yes, make sure you select 25H.
    Warlocks viable as a class? God forbid, I thought they belonged in their DS place.

  17. #77
    Pandaren Monk Serpent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seezer View Post
    OP in almost every single fight? Go look at World of logs. Which Raidbots is based off of.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...t_of_Fear/dps/
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...an_Vaults/dps/

    So if this is the sample set, then affliction doesn't look OP at all. What people are seeing is locks in a place they aren't used to seeing them. And yes, make sure you select 25H.

    I trust a site where you can actually see the top 100 parses over one that just says it.
    1. inaccurate to look at top 100; rather look at All Parses (multiple reasons).
    2. I never said Warlocks are OP.

  18. #78
    i so hate ppl that say nerf this nerf that
    it will be better for everyone to flame for boost this boost that

  19. #79
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    1. inaccurate to look at top 100; rather look at All Parses (multiple reasons).
    Explain how the top 200 (parses) is better than 100? If anything, affliction doesn't change much since its a highly played spec. But the specs few people play, due to better specs being available - arms, unholy DK, and even destruction warlock - will get shit on since there were so few (good) parses to begin with.

    Those are the specs you are complaining about being underpowered, perhaps it's not even 200 good players putting parses up of these inferior specs (as compared to the class).

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Then it wasn't nerfed anymore, because in 4.2 and 4.3 warlocks were quite near the bottom of the barrel, so they didn't "need" more nerfs.

    Bottom of the barrel?

    http://simulationcraft.org/422/Raid_T12H.html
    T12, Demonology way top and Aff was 4th.

    http://simulationcraft.org/430/Raid_T13H.html
    T13, Demonology was 3rd, and Aff was 7th.

    Not bottom of the barrel, not even remotely close.

    Almost everything you've said in this thread so far has been completely wrong, and very obviously based on a blind desire to keep your class OP.

    the "nerf" camp can't see any sense.
    You're right, a desire to see the game more balanced rather than seeing Affliction continue to dominate nearly every fight of the tier means we've got no sense. /sarcasm

    I normally wouldn't say this, but I don't see any other explanation. You must be REALLY bad at Affliction to not understand why it needs a nerf. I'm sorry that you're not pulling numbers that are head and shoulders above every class other than mages, but the rest of us are.
    Last edited by Teye; 2012-12-26 at 05:13 AM.

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