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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    Mages had a very good single target dps and fire mages totally dominated Alysrazor. Mages were strong, but they had the weaknesses of arcane, meaning there were weak fights like ragnaros.

    With fire becoming strong on single target, everything changed. Suddenly they had nearly no weakness, performed well on every fight.

    That's the problem of Affli. A multidotting specc with high mobility and extremely high single target dps - this cannot work. Just as fire cannot work when they have the same single target dps like arcane.

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Blade_Lor...00000000000000

    That's a single target fight, compared to the other multidot and high mobility casters. As anyone can see, why is there a so big difference between speccs that roll for about the same gear, have the same role, have the same strength (multidotting, high mobility), high surviability (at least wls and shadows).

    I uderstand if demo or destro had a high single target dps to compensate for their lack of multidotting and monility. But why Affliction?
    What on earth are you on about. Have you even played Warlock this expansion? Demonology's mobility is FAR higher than that of Affliction.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 12:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by RH exact View Post
    Ret paladins would be happy for a buff that puts them within 90% of affliction warlocks.
    Our ret paladin has no issues competing for the top spot on the meter, obviously fight dependent, and since we're both regularly ranked 1-5 for our class, I would suggest you have an L2p issue.

    Affliction Warlocks are strong on a lot of fights, yes. However, the skill-cap is also a lot higher than it is for most classes, which means the average DPS for an affli-lock doesnt scale the same as the highest ranked report does. In most situations, other classes can compete with us just fine.

    We have very good sustain, but very low burst.
    Last edited by EvreliaGaming; 2012-12-27 at 12:40 PM.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Falsified View Post
    No affli is better than every class in too many scenarios and by too much, please nerf it . Please stop exaggerating. It is getting bothersome and boring.
    You lost all your credibility with the 20% BS and "my 488 lock does more damage than my 502 SP", and you still keep posting here baffles me...

    From a perspective of a Demo main spec lock(that ONLY specs aff if mechanics dont allow) I can tell you that aff is no way overpowered, I have a guild mate that plays mostly aff and as I said I play mostly Demo, we both rank even tho isnt Top10(thats for high DPS guilds, rng etc) we have some top20's in our belts and I can feel Iam very competitive with aff on most fights I even win on some, and with that so are the other DPSers

    I do agree that SPs slightly, Moonkins and especially Elemental shaman need buffs, but the difference isn't 20%(and looking from top to bottom doesn't make your case) same way you coming saying that a alt 14 ilevels lower does more damage, just makes you look ridiculous or you have a serious l2p issue.

    Is aff on top on most fights YES someone has to be on TOP I can name several tiers and patches were there was bigger chasms.
    Last edited by Hellfury; 2012-12-27 at 03:55 PM.
    Warlock / IA Operative / Wizard / Engineer

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellfury View Post
    You lost all your credibility with the 20% BS and "my 488 lock does more damage than my 502 SP", and you still keep posting here baffles me...
    Well tbh this is a little bit true tho. Maybe a aff lock with 488 shouldnt outdps a 502 spriest, but u get his point.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by whi View Post
    What do you base that "should" on? All the estimates here say it's a ~3% overall nerf at best and that changes nothing.

    Furthermore i'm aware what the grimoire comparison results on ej would suggests, but as far as my own sims go it seems that sac outscaled other grimoires for destro aswell(106.3 vs 103.3 vs 102.6, +- optimal reforges/gems/enchants), which even though warrants this nerf too won't bring the specs closer by any meaningful amount.
    I base that *should* on the fact that we don't really have reliable data for Aff with the other talents. What we do have are sims that show Sac is ~6% ahead of the Observer. So what are you asking? That Sac should be nerfed further based on sims that may well be overstating how far Sac is ahead of the others?

    3% isn't much, but nor is 6%. Either are plenty though for people to make a decision that the alternatives aren't ideal.

  5. #145
    Recent buff to kjc made affl maybe abit to strong before the buff you could go demo on alot of high movement fights and compete with affl but now affl has like 0 weak points i could see more nerfs in the future.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by miroo View Post
    Recent buff to kjc made affl maybe abit to strong before the buff you could go demo on alot of high movement fights and compete with affl but now affl has like 0 weak points i could see more nerfs in the future.
    Oh there's still weak points. On KJC alone the slow is potentially deadly in a fair few places unless you know how to compensate for it. This further reinforces the point above regarding top level affliction vs the rest of us. If you are moving chances are there's a reason for it. Whatever that reason is you are now moving towards/away from it 30% slower.

    I do agree that the new KJC has proven to be very potent for affliction, but it's not without consequences that must be dealt with. It's somewhat difficult to prove, especially with changes to gear and such, but I'm of the opinion that the GoSac nerf in the PTR notes should see affliction move to around where it was before the KJC change on moderate to heavy movement fights.

    The spec is certainly decent, but looking at each fight in the tier it's not really the massively dominant force that some people make it out to be. It's also worth noting that it's a very popular spec at the moment. More often that not a spec can appear to be very good simply because enough people are playing it that there's a big enough sample size for streaks of luck to start to take over at the top. Not to say that the top parses aren't from very good players. There is however a difference between a very good player and a very good player with a lucky streak of procs combined with being free to DPS as they like (not picked for special jobs, not targetted by boss abilities). Once your sample size is large enough the top 200 will start to become dominated by the second set of parses. This is something that has long been very apparent in classes with inbuilt high DPS variance. Especially with 4 piece there are a lot more occasions when I'm sat there thinking "give me another damned soul shard now!", and other times when I'm thinking "oh NOW you proc loads of soul shards".

  7. #147
    I started playing my lock as my new main for this expansion, and what Everlia is true, the skill level required to make an affliction lock shine is my higher than I expected. I admire the higher end locks because there is skill being shown. If the trinkets are blown, procs are missed or a mistake is made with shards, the numbers plummet dramatically. Like the post above, I find myself screaming at the comp looking for a shard when a proc hits and I don't have two shards to take full advantage.

    Every expansion has a class and spec that tops the meters both in theory and in practice. Additionally there are also classes and specs that in theory and in practice have lower ceilings and benefit less from gear upgrades. If we want perfect balance, then we have to do away with all classes and make everyone play the same class and spec.
    Last edited by Woeful; 2012-12-27 at 07:49 PM.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    Our ret paladin has no issues competing for the top spot on the meter, obviously fight dependent, and since we're both regularly ranked 1-5 for our class, I would suggest you have an L2p issue.
    I don't understand how you can defend Rets with the simple argument being that you have one in your guild that is able to push numbers. Then using same argument to tell someone they are bad. You really should try harder if you want to express strong opinions about something, because this isn't convincing at all.

  9. #149
    Pandaren Monk Evela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    You really...don't understand a damn thing about Warlock.

    You can't even remotely think about something like that if you were actually playing an affliction on raids. Its...blasphemy, something very horrid to say.

    And with this i think we wasted more then 5 pages of thread trying to explain you something you wouldn't understand in the first place because you probably ain't raiding with a lock yet
    Oh yeah? Then please, explain how Warlock's l90 talents are less balanced than other classes's. There's litterally only 1 fight where you MAYBE want to use Primal Elementalist as Elemental (for example), for the rest you go Elemental Blast. Same for many other classes.
    As a Warlock you're changing around in between fights, and yes, while they might not be completely balanced and equally represented, they are far moreso than other classes's l90 talents.

    At least be constructive and try to argue your point instead of straight out stating that "you're wrong, I'm right, you know so little about Warlocks that you can't possibly play one". It's okay to have a different opinion, just back it up with facts instead of doing what you're doing there.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 11:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by luckydevours View Post
    Stop this shit about affliction needs a nerf! Have you ever seen an affliction warlock with an oberserver pet dominating the meters?! Get it?! Affliction is perfectly balanced, even underpowered in PvP! Its a single talent - Grimoire of Sacrifice - that pushes a perfectly fine spec to the top, so stop calling for affliction nerfs a tell us how much you want GoSac to be nerfed to bring it in line!
    Faulty reasoning right there. No good Warlocks go about using Observer, at least not for most fights anyway as far as I'm aware (sorry voidspark, not *that* educated). Would perhaps be more beneficial to link the l75 talent/pet comparison for Affliction, found here: http://www.simulationcraft.org/510/P...ffliction.html. A 10% nerf to GoSac won't bring it in line with the others even, according to this source at least.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 11:40 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Either way, I think there's two different types of people in this thread:

    1) People, like me, who accept that there may be adjustments coming and who are happy that the developers are taking time to make sure we stay in a good position in 5.2, instead of knee-jerk, blanket nerfing the class far to the other extreme as has been done in the past.

    2) The people who are crying for a class to be literally nerfed into the ground without any thought or regard to balance, whatsoever, because they are pissed that their own class/spec isn't top of the meters, and think it will make them feel better.
    Not biased at all. Let's try the other version;
    1) There's people like you, who are too narrowminded to actually realise that their favourite spec, the one and only, is quite a bit over the top in regards to DPS in pretty much all situations and on all boss fights. These people also think that the GoSac nerf isn't justified.
    2) There's people like me, who care for a balanced PvE environment with less than the odd 20% difference between highest and lowest (lowest being the highest DPS spec of a given class, say, Ret or Enh).

    Also, don't use sims to compare classes (left that part of the quote out). Raidbots is a far better tool for that.
    Last edited by Evela; 2012-12-28 at 12:06 PM.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    Also, don't use sims to compare classes (left that part of the quote out). Raidbots is a far better tool for that.
    So simcraft should only be used when it actually agrees with the point you are trying to make?

    Said it before but I´ll say it again: there are better singletarget dps specs than affliction, but they usually lose dps on any movement, we dont, thats why we are high. If you nerf our damage based on how we perform compared to other classes in heavy movement fights, we'll fall behind on low movement fights.

    The problem is you compare affliction to the lowest dps specs, conclude that the difference is too big and thus wants to nerf affliction down to that level, while in reality its those specs that should be buffed. If affliction single target dps was indeed 20% higher than anyone elses like some people try to claim here, the differences on sims would be even greater due to KJC, so stop your little crusade against affliction and see where this Sacrifice-nerf places em.

    Affliction being heavily represented in the top on Vizier is no more strange than Combat being exclusive in the top on Garalon. It is heavy movement and melee sometimes have to run out of melee range, leaving warlocks the only class that can do the fights with 0 dps loss pretty much, and affliction is warlocks strongest spec. If you wanna nerf KJC (which really is the reason you are whining about affliction, you just dont know it because you obviously have no clue about locks in general) then fine, go make a thread and cry about that there.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    My god, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? Honestly, all these personal insults - both towards me and others having a different opinion than you. Really.
    Also, for the record, I am playing Affliction. As a main. And even if it was as an alt, I don't see how that's relevant. Not at all relevant enough for it to warrant you looking through my posts, at least. Just stop.
    Sorry, what? I'm not the one insulting others in this thread (or anywhere else).

    Most people aren't comparing sims to anything, but real life raid situations, something you would understand if you actually played the class. I welcome you to re-roll and then come back and have a civil discussion.

    PLEASE DON'T PM ME WITH REQUESTS! (OR RISK INCINERATION, RANDOM AFFLICTION, OCCASIONAL SACRIFICE)

  12. #152
    KJC change needs to be reverted. Affli sure didn't need it. Let Destro cast Incinerate during Backdraft or something and all specs are fine.

    This together with the GoSac nerf should even out the numbers with other classes overall.

  13. #153
    Pandaren Monk Evela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noaim View Post
    If you wanna nerf KJC (which really is the reason you are whining about affliction, you just dont know it because you obviously have no clue about locks in general) then fine, go make a thread and cry about that there.
    Hunters have great mobility as well. As do Elemental Shamans. Fire Mages too, to a degree. Still, Affliction is ahead in pretty much every scenario - movement or not.
    And regarding the SimCraft thing: no. Just no. SimCraft should be taken with a pretty big grain of salt when it comes to class comparison for various reason. That it should for some reason make Affliction appear weaker than it really is isn't one of them.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 12:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Duskmoon View Post
    Sorry, what? I'm not the one insulting others in this thread (or anywhere else).

    Most people aren't comparing sims to anything, but real life raid situations, something you would understand if you actually played the class. I welcome you to re-roll and then come back and have a civil discussion.
    I'm sorry, confused your and voidspark there. My apologies.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    KJC change needs to be reverted. Affli sure didn't need it. Let Destro cast Incinerate during Backdraft or something and all specs are fine.

    This together with the GoSac nerf should even out the numbers with other classes overall.
    As good as KJC is, it has no impact on the relative strength between the three Grimoires which is the issue. Affliction isn't even massively ahead to actually warrant nerfing; it's just easier to hammer that nail down that pull the others up.

  15. #155
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    KJC change needs to be reverted. Affli sure didn't need it. Let Destro cast Incinerate during Backdraft or something and all specs are fine.

    This together with the GoSac nerf should even out the numbers with other classes overall.
    Kil'jaeden's Cunning was garbage pre-change, so no, reverting it is pretty unnecessary.

    If affliction is too good with movement, then that's something else that needs to be looked at, maybe just giving Kil'jaden's Cunning the spiritwalker's grace treatment, with a better activated version and no passive.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 11:34 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    blah blah blah
    For one, you do realize that affliction is far from my "one and only favorite spec" and it isn't even the main spec I play... at all. But glad to see you're making smart assumptions!

    I'm done talking to you, it's obvious nothing I (or anybody) is saying in here is getting through that skull.

  16. #156
    Let's try and have this discussion without getting personal about it, please. We do not need to involve WHO is making the argument to refute it.
    Your Soul Shall Suffer! ||| Forum rules ||| New England Patriots

  17. #157
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Plot twist: Noone dares touch the fact OP's main was a shaman with a 10 ft barge pole other than to claim he isn't a warlock main - either you are happy with being OP, or you are happy with shamans being UP - noone's say there is a huge difference just the original post is saying that it is more than 2.5%

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    Hunters have great mobility as well. As do Elemental Shamans. Fire Mages too, to a degree. Still, Affliction is ahead in pretty much every scenario - movement or not.
    And regarding the SimCraft thing: no. Just no. SimCraft should be taken with a pretty big grain of salt when it comes to class comparison for various reason. That it should for some reason make Affliction appear weaker than it really is isn't one of them.[COLOR="red"]
    Cant say I know elemental shamans that well, but afaik they cast slower when they glyph LB, they cant cast other stuff while moving and they are already low, and noone has argued against that. Fire mages lose dps when they have to move. MM hunters do v well on vizier, I dont know if they have 0 dps loss while moving, but if you exclude the top aff warlock (who gets spammed with tott etc) MM is roughly 7k dps behind. Add in the Grim of Sac-nerf and that gap is even smaller.

    Also, you used simcraft to show how much sacrifice has to be nerfed for it to be balanced, yet for sacrifice to be that much ahead you yourself must make 100% use of it, while if you spec supremacy its pretty much fire and forget, so while sacrifice is obviously better, the difference is probably slightly smaller in a "reality" (in fights where the pet doesnt have to run alot to change target etc).
    Last edited by noaim; 2012-12-28 at 11:50 AM.

  19. #159
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noaim View Post
    Cant say I know elemental shamans that well, but afaik they cast slower when they glyph LB, they cant cast other stuff while moving and they are already low, and noone has argued against that. Fire mages lose dps when they have to move. MM hunters do v well on vizier, I dont know if they have 0 dps loss while moving, but if you exclude the top aff warlock (who gets spammed with tott etc) MM is roughly 7k dps behind. Add in the Grim of Sac-nerf and that gap is even smaller.
    Elemental casts LB slower if they glyph it for movement (which is more or less mandatory except on a fight where most of it is standstill - for instance on Will you probably wouldn't glyph it, or even elegon). But aside from that, their only cast is Lava Burst, which is mostly infrequent and its procs (lava surge) are now instant with MOP. And during ascendance, they can SWG. So movement isn't that bad.

    Yes, they cast slower with the glyph. But warlocks have to give up a 90 talent and suffer a movement penalty when moving while casting.

    Fire is the only clear-cut DPS loss with scorch, but it's not a large DPS loss if used well. Hunters now move while casting with absolutely zero (0) penalty.

  20. #160
    Pandaren Monk Evela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    For one, you do realize that affliction is far from my "one and only favorite spec" and it isn't even the main spec I play... at all. But glad to see you're making smart assumptions!

    I'm done talking to you, it's obvious nothing I (or anybody) is saying in here is getting through that skull.
    Glad to see that you're insulting people directly (me and others) instead of trying to argue your point. Half of what you have posted so far has been worthless flaming of others and their opinions.
    "One and only favourite spec" or whatever I wrote was obviously meant sarcasticly, as I was mimicking your ridiculously biased/inaccurate 'two kinds of people'-philosophy.
    -
    Most people aren't comparing sims to anything, but real life raid situations, something you would understand if you actually played the class. I welcome you to re-roll and then come back and have a civil discussion.
    You're right, most people aren't. I was responding to Voidspark however, who was. The logic behind comparing classes in 'real life' raid situations (i.e. Raidbots/WoL, as anything else is awfully anecdotal) is not at all something I disagree on, and I can't see where you should have picked that up - quite the opposite is true, actually. Regardless, it has nothing to do with me not playing Warlock (fact is, I am, which I have already stated - but I disgress). It holds true for all classes.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 01:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by noaim View Post
    Cant say I know elemental shamans that well, but afaik they cast slower when they glyph LB, they cant cast other stuff while moving and they are already low, and noone has argued against that. Fire mages lose dps when they have to move. MM hunters do v well on vizier, I dont know if they have 0 dps loss while moving, but if you exclude the top aff warlock (who gets spammed with tott etc) MM is roughly 7k dps behind. Add in the Grim of Sac-nerf and that gap is even smaller.

    Also, you used simcraft to show how much sacrifice has to be nerfed for it to be balanced, yet for sacrifice to be that much ahead you yourself must make 100% use of it, while if you spec supremacy its pretty much fire and forget, so while sacrifice is obviously better, the difference is probably slightly smaller in a "reality" (in fights where the pet doesnt have to run alot to change target etc).
    Read the context. There's a difference between class-comparison through sims (which isn't at all accurate) and talent/spec-comparison (which is somewhat accurate). Classes have different strength and weaknesses, and a single-target standstill fight doesn't factor in any of them (making sims inaccurate when it comes to performance in actual raids). Talent/spec-comparison is largely usable as they aren't subject to this to the same degree.
    Last edited by Evela; 2012-12-28 at 12:09 PM.

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