Subtley (Rogue) PvE 5.2 discussion

[Deleted]

No / No.
If you don't want position requirement go play muti/combat, i enjoy playing a "ROGUE" spec (as in staying behind target and attacking at the weak points) instead of fury warrior in leather.

Maybe if anyone could see there targets anymore this would be valid but right now all you see is a big blur of explosions and random sparkles up to 10 feet away from targets, by the way since when was trying to find the arse of a slime ball fun, its like trying to find the back side of a bouncy ball that instantly turns very quickly. Another example is the backside of a tentacle, visually there is no obvious way to find it and add in some sparkles and you may as well be playing pin the tail on the pony.

Aside from that all monsters in this game defy physics and the speed of light and instantly turn and face you. This mechanic is broken and these ability's are the only subscribers left. If you want a disadvantage fine iam sure you can think of something to make it harder for you, the rest of the game wants to move on.

[celinamuna]

Aside from that all monsters in this game defy physics and the speed of light and instantly turn and face you. This mechanic is broken and these ability's are the only subscribers left. If you want a disadvantage fine iam sure you can think of something to make it harder for you, the rest of the game wants to move on.

So far haven't seen a fight where it would be hard to find the back, and i don't want the disadvantage while doing same dmg, but if say they added a glyph to *ANY* ability we have which would say "requires being behind target, but increases damage done by 10/20%" i would take it in a heartbeat. And honestly i do enjoy the occasional "challenge" of playing a spec with a hard rotation, than a 1 button spec.

[D3athsting]

Backstabbing ultraxion was very fun...

[SilkDath]

So far haven't seen a fight where it would be hard to find the back, and i don't want the disadvantage while doing same dmg, but if say they added a glyph to *ANY* ability we have which would say "requires being behind target, but increases damage done by 10/20%" i would take it in a heartbeat. And honestly i do enjoy the occasional "challenge" of playing a spec with a hard rotation, than a 1 button spec.

None of the MoP rogue specs have a hard rotation anymore. Assassination is sleepy, Combat is spammy, Subtlety is dumbed down.

[Kael]

So far haven't seen a fight where it would be hard to find the back, and i don't want the disadvantage while doing same dmg, but if say they added a glyph to *ANY* ability we have which would say "requires being behind target, but increases damage done by 10/20%" i would take it in a heartbeat. And honestly i do enjoy the occasional "challenge" of playing a spec with a hard rotation, than a 1 button spec.

None of the MoP rogue specs have a hard rotation anymore. Assassination is sleepy, Combat is spammy, Subtlety is dumbed down.

To clarify, outside CDs, sub and combat are the same spec as of MoP (with different CP/time), except sub has to stand behind the target. Keep up SnD, keep up rupture (less important for combat), keep up RvS/Hemo, evis at 5. There are some teensy ideals to swap around in there (pooling energy before renewing RvS if convenient), but these have a negligible impact.

[Ryme]

Does anyone have any data on how Shadowcraft is modelling Shuriken Toss for sub? In all the work I've done on this matter with simulationcraft, I've found it to be close to but never exceeding backstab as a CP builder.

Now, in the latest version of Shadowcraft, they have it as a 3-4k dps increase, even despite T14 2pc - I find this odd, I do hope it's correct, since it's an amazing rotation, but my sceptical mind worries.

[Enhshamanlol]

So I went on ptr and rupture buff isn't live =( rupture hits harder on live servers than ptr atm. I cant wait for it to get patched in to test some numbers

[Wow]

So I went on ptr and rupture buff isn't live =( rupture hits harder on live servers than ptr atm. I cant wait for it to get patched in to test some numbers

? rupture wasn't buffed.

[Enhshamanlol]

? rupture wasn't buffed.

I so missread that when it came up. it looked like it said it gain a 50% buff. wtf
Like when it was first datamined it said it got a buff or i'm seeing shit.

Ok. Look at http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-16446-Changes When it was first datemined it said rupture got a 50% buff. Ok im not seeing shit.

[RemJay24]

the only change was the 16% to 20%.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=79147

[Enhshamanlol]

the only change was the 16% to 20%.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=79147

Yes, But I said, in the datamine at first on the front page it said rupture was buffed. Look at the thread I linked. It clearly shows a rupture buff.
Idk I didn't know rupture had 50% buff in the first place.

[Deleted]

Yes, But I said, in the datamine at first on the front page it said rupture was buffed. Look at the thread I linked. It clearly shows a rupture buff.
Idk I didn't know rupture had 50% buff in the first place.

No, that just tells you what the mastery does then tells you the increase from 16%-20%. Nowhere did it say Rupture would be buffed

[Enhshamanlol]

No, that just tells you what the mastery does then tells you the increase from 16%-20%. Nowhere did it say Rupture would be buffed

Yeah, I didn't know vains had a 50% rupture buff in the first. I see that now. But when it first hit the frontpage. I thought that was new and rupture got a buff via vains.

[Coldkil]

Apart from staright dmg buffs, PvE point of view, there are no big changes.

Cloak and Dagger is cool - still ShS provides a lot better mobility not tied to be in stealth and openers (anyway i agree it has more uses with shadowdance and especially in PvP).

Marked for Death is a great burst on demand - anyway Anticipation is a greater dps increase; first it lets you not waste HaT procs which is extremely probable even with a perfect managment; second, when you have concurrent expiring timers, it lets you pool CP to dish out 2 finishers in sequence and avoid clipping too much rupture/snd or risk much less to drop one of the two.

[Ryme]

The synergy between marked for death and Shadow Dance is something to be considered, and as I recall, even with anticipation, you still pool energy on your fourth combo point and wait for a HaT proc, do you not? Marked for Death could actually be fairly viable as sub.

Just thinking out loud really, would need to test.

[Coldkil]

The synergy between marked for death and Shadow Dance is something to be considered, and as I recall, even with anticipation, you still pool energy on your fourth combo point and wait for a HaT proc, do you not? Marked for Death could actually be fairly viable as sub.

Just thinking out loud really, would need to test.

Yeah tests are surely needed.

Anyway Anticipation removes the need to pool energy and wait for HaT, since every proc will preserved. The real trick to play sub + Anticipation is to pool energy to have always 35 to drop an eviscerate and to pool CP to refresh rupture and snd as late as possible.

Plus during Shadow Dance Anticipation lets you spam more Ambush and delay Eviscerate to have more FW uptime.

MfD is a great talent, but in a sustained/continuos dps enviroment Anticipation offers more advantages overall. I'm sure anyway that MfD will have its niche due to the burst and the fact the CD is reset when the target is dying. I expcet it being superior for heavy/predictable switching fights - WotE for example, when you need to cripple courage and you'll have MfD up as soon the add dies.

[Squirl]

Item - Rogue T15 2P Bonus (New) Increases the duration of your finishing moves as if you had used an additional combo point, up to a maximum of 6 combo points.
Item - Rogue T15 4P Bonus (New) Shadow Blades also reduces the cost of all your abilities by 40%.

I feel like the t15 bonuses are going to put Subt pretty far ahead.

• Combat: For sure going to severely energy cap during AR+SB due to 4pc, which may mean we need to unmacro them. SnD extension due to 2pc is nice because it means more Eviscs. I suppose 2pc would make Rupture on single target a more obvious choice as well. Still great bonuses, but the AR+SB situation means pretty bad utilization either way.
• Assassination: Huge Env clipping during SB due to 2pc+4pc. At the same time, you get longer Ruptures and Envenoms, which means way more Env uptime outside of burst. Still a huge gain, but not fully utilized because of massive Env clipping.
• Subtlety: Huge burst during SB+SD due to 4pc, and longer SnD and Rupture due to 2pc which means more Eviscs (which are a good chunk of Subt's damage). No suboptimization caused. Amazing bonuses.

Subtlety is already on the ass of Mut at high gear levels and it's getting a flat damage increase. It'll be interesting to see how each spec sims out with the bonuses. My money is on Subt top by a good margin.

[jtstormrage]

i think that sub is already better than combat with no cleave fights and on par with assa, at least till the execute phase for assa

This is exactly right. However, as we get more haste and agi, Sub and Combat will pull ahead because they scale better.

Also, in tier 14 their was a lot of Mastery on gear, and a strong Mastery trinket (Bottle). I suspect they will put lots of haste on gear in tier 15 to entice people to play Sub and Combat, as they did in tier 12.