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  1. #1

    WW tier set bonus = DPS loss?

    I play a monk as an alt and still like to have it perform at a high level. I have the 496 WW tier gloves and 476 off piece epics for helm, chest, and legs. Whenever I simcraft (using 510-8), I get a slight DPS loss when gaining the 2pc bonus even with the ilvl upgrade 476->483. Any guidance here? I know some WWs are skipping tier and some are dropping FoF competely. Others say if used properly, it's a dps gain. I don't mind the priority system with or without FoF, but strictly from a gear perspective, I want to go in the right direction. Any advice in regards to this?

  2. #2
    Obviously there's no way that the set bonus could be a DPS loss, that's just silly. However, they're not really a gain either. Treat tier pieces like normal items.

    What you're seeing is that Mastery is so ridiculously far behind every other stat that forcing yourself into a place where you have to end up with some extra due to reforging or whatever results in that rating being practically worthless. Having ideal stats on your gear is more important than 30 Agility and some rating.

  3. #3
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Obviously there's no way that the set bonus could be a DPS loss, that's just silly. However, they're not really a gain either. Treat tier pieces like normal items.

    What you're seeing is that Mastery is so ridiculously far behind every other stat that forcing yourself into a place where you have to end up with some extra due to reforging or whatever results in that rating being practically worthless. Having ideal stats on your gear is more important than 30 Agility and some rating.
    Have you seen WW tier bonuses? lol

    2pc: Reduction to the CD of FoF, which is already very hard to use on CD
    4pc: Increased energy regen from EBrew, we are already reaching Energy cap this tier, god knows how bad it will be in the future

  4. #4
    If you aren't playing your class optimally, it will be hard for you to get a boost from the set bonus's. However, if you reforge out of haste and in to crit, use Energizing brew at low energy and make sure you aren't clipping RSK with FoF, you will notice a gain.

    You will want to pay attention to itemization on the gear as the chest and helm both have an excess of mastery which isn't very good in 5.1(changing in 5.2). Gloves, Legs and Shoulders are itemized well. I suggest that for now you use gloves and legs, then move to 4 piece once you get the tier shoulders.

    For a novice player I wouldn't recommend using the 4pc set bonus as it makes your rotation need a lot of extra attention.
    Last edited by Vishiz; 2012-12-26 at 01:45 AM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    Have you seen WW tier bonuses? lol

    2pc: Reduction to the CD of FoF, which is already very hard to use on CD
    It's actually really easy to use FoF on or near to the CD since the fix, if you're still having problems with it then has nothing to do with the set bonuses or the spell, as for the 4pc it really is such a minor dps gain that the trade off for using non-bis items to get it is very likely not worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jankage
    I know some WWs are skipping tier and some are dropping FoF completely. Others say if used properly, it's a dps gain. I don't mind the priority system with or without FoF, but strictly from a gear perspective, I want to go in the right direction. Any advice in regards to this?
    No one is dropping FoF completely, your dps will be better if you can use it as much as possible without delaying RSK, energy is easy to keep low now everyone is going crit > haste so you won't have to worry about capping and TP is beyond easy to keep up and can even be allowed to drop off for a second or two if it happens mid FoF (as long as you can get it up before your next RSK).

    Additionally full BiS gear uses 2pc (head and shoulders) however the difference between the majority of the gear combos is minimal enough to not worry about unless you're pushing world/server firsts or something.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    Have you seen WW tier bonuses? lol

    2pc: Reduction to the CD of FoF, which is already very hard to use on CD
    4pc: Increased energy regen from EBrew, we are already reaching Energy cap this tier, god knows how bad it will be in the future
    And how could either of those possibly result in a DPS loss from simcraft? I mean, they're not good, but they definitely don't hurt anybody by having them.

  7. #7
    I understand the priority system and how to play the class. I am a high end raider and have been for many expansions.
    I'm just focusing on gear and why simcraft says what it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thisisanalt View Post
    No one is dropping FoF completely
    There are definitely parses without it

  8. #8
    Pandaren Monk Phookah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    And how could either of those possibly result in a DPS loss from simcraft? I mean, they're not good, but they definitely don't hurt anybody by having them.
    Could it be that simcraft is still cutting off ticks from FoF due to haste, and lowering the CD (Tier set 2 piece) makes you do more FoF that lose ticks, thereby lowering your DPS?
    "If MMORPG players were around when God said, "Let their be light"
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  9. #9
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    And how could either of those possibly result in a DPS loss from simcraft? I mean, they're not good, but they definitely don't hurt anybody by having them.
    They are not worth the DPS "upgrade", why take tier pieces with mastery/crit when you can get off pieces with haste/exp/hit etc.(Tier pants being an exception)

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    They are not worth the DPS "upgrade", why take tier pieces with mastery/crit when you can get off pieces with haste/exp/hit etc.(Tier pants being an exception)
    You do know that's exactly what I said in the very first reply to this thread right?

    Tier set bonuses != tier gear with set bonuses on it

    One can result in a DPS loss, the other is mathematically impossible to do so.

  11. #11
    I think we're done here.. Whatever small benefit the set bonus provides is offset by the most inferior stat, mastery, on the gear.

  12. #12
    If you are importing your character into simcraft, you have to manually add the set bonus otherwise it will not pick it up. To do this you need to type in:

    tier14_2pc_melee=1
    tier14_4pc_melee=1

    somewhere in the box after you've imported.

    At least that used to be the case, I'm not entirely sure if it still is.

    Also, make sure you're running more than 1000 iterations because the results can vary pretty heavily at 1000

    Edit: Its picking up the 2 piece but not the 4 pc so you will need to add "tier14_4pc_melee=1" somewhere otherwise it will assume you do not have it.
    Last edited by Vishiz; 2012-12-26 at 04:34 AM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Vishiz View Post
    If you are importing your character into simcraft, you have to manually add the set bonus otherwise it will not pick it up. To do this you need to type in:

    tier14_2pc_melee=1
    tier14_4pc_melee=1

    somewhere in the box after you've imported.

    At least that used to be the case, I'm not entirely sure if it still is.

    Also, make sure you're running more than 1000 iterations because the results can vary pretty heavily at 1000

    Edit: Its picking up the 2 piece but not the 4 pc so you will need to add "tier14_4pc_melee=1" somewhere otherwise it will assume you do not have it.
    Apparently Blizzard changed the set names of the Monk T14 pieces, to distinguishable names ( yay! ). Fixed in http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...detail?r=15219 . Feel free to open a ticket at the SimC project site directly next time. This way it can get fixed a lot quicker, and not just by chance of someone reading about it on the forums.

  14. #14
    Dreadlord Kyuubi87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thisisanalt View Post
    It's actually really easy to use FoF on or near to the CD since the fix, if you're still having problems with it then has nothing to do with the set bonuses or the spell, as for the 4pc it really is such a minor dps gain that the trade off for using non-bis items to get it is very likely not worth it.



    No one is dropping FoF completely
    There are a lot of players that are not using FoF, and are ranking with/without using it. Its all gameplay dependent at the present time.

  15. #15
    Anyone who is not doing bleeding edge content trying for world firsts does not need to worry about FoF. You have more important things to be paying attention to, things that will require less effort for more payoff. Until the rest of your dps rotation is perfect, you have no business using FoF. It's a very slight dps gain if used correctly, but it's a horribly bad dps loss if used incorrectly, which most people will be doing.

    I really wish the WW set bonuses weren't both awful. The 2pc seems like it should be on the pvp set, and I honestly don't know what the point of the 4pc is. At all.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyo View Post
    Anyone who is not doing bleeding edge content trying for world firsts does not need to worry about FoF. You have more important things to be paying attention to, things that will require less effort for more payoff. Until the rest of your dps rotation is perfect, you have no business using FoF. It's a very slight dps gain if used correctly, but it's a horribly bad dps loss if used incorrectly, which most people will be doing.
    I agree with this 100%. Couldn't have said it better myself. I've personally ranked on WoL multiple times and never even had FoF on my toolbars.

  17. #17
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illitti View Post
    I agree with this 100%. Couldn't have said it better myself. I've personally ranked on WoL multiple times and never even had FoF on my toolbars.
    Yeah I really need to pull it off my bar when I go WW, I have a WA set up that pings me when the perfect conditions for it's use are met but the window is so small I usually miss it. Just going to ditch it and move Expel Harm closer button wise for emergencies.

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  18. #18
    Moderator Callimonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    Yeah I really need to pull it off my bar when I go WW, I have a WA set up that pings me when the perfect conditions for it's use are met but the window is so small I usually miss it. Just going to ditch it and move Expel Harm closer button wise for emergencies.
    As someone "on the bleeding edge" (whatever that means - it's all a progression race to me), FoF has its uses. From my understanding, you are mainspec BrM, so it would benefit from the extra haste you have - however, I'd imagine your energy regen would also be insane (unless you talent into Power Strikes), so there's also that. Just keep in mind that it's not always a damage loss to cap while casting - the main thing is to just make sure you do it in such a place where you will not be forced to interrupt the cast.

    Overall, I'm not personally placing emphasis on gaining the 4set bonus (I'm looking at pieces based on their ilevel and secondary stats), but I did choose to gear for the 2set. Being that my guild logs privately, I can only say that I typically do very well on our meters in fights that windwalkers are particularly strong.

  19. #19
    FoF isn't a terrible ability anymore. With the fix in 5.1 it made it a good ability to actually use, not something to ignore anymore. A lot of the fights where I dps, I use the 2p bonus and almost use it on cooldown. As long as I'm below 85 energy, RSk won't come off cooldown, and TP won't fall off it's being used.

  20. #20
    Moderator Callimonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    FoF isn't a terrible ability anymore. With the fix in 5.1 it made it a good ability to actually use, not something to ignore anymore. A lot of the fights where I dps, I use the 2p bonus and almost use it on cooldown. As long as I'm below 85 energy, RSk won't come off cooldown, and TP won't fall off it's being used.
    Precisely this. And well put Obviously you can't 100% use it on CD (ex: phase changes in Vizier, Blade Lord), but - for the most part - it's doable.

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