How much uptime and how many casts of RoP are required to pass Invocation?

[Sw1tch]

In terms of damage. Speaking in terms of say a % uptime standing on it (assume 100% activity of course) and how many times you cast it (because of course casting it reduces time attacking)

[mrgreenthump]

Ugh, If you max your alter time usage with invoc, RoP will prolly never reach it..

[Deleted]

Invocation is still too strong. I don't understand:

If i can choose between a talent where i have to stand in one or two little runes all the time and another with the same duration, but perfect mobility - why should i ever pick up the second?

For me, as a fire or frost mage, i'd never pick up RoP. Rop would need to be at a higer spelldmg buff, say Inovocation 15, ROP 18% to give it a try.

[Elegiac]

Invocation is still too strong. I don't understand:

If i can choose between a talent where i have to stand in one or two little runes all the time and another with the same duration, but perfect mobility - why should i ever pick up the second?

For me, as a fire or frost mage, i'd never pick up RoP. Rop would need to be at a higer spelldmg buff, say Inovocation 15, ROP 18% to give it a try.

The answer is, there is no reason. The Level 90 talents for Mages are one of the worst tiers in existence next to Warlock T6.

I could post possible improvements ad nauseum, but Blizzard doesn't have the faintest idea in hell what to do with Mages.

[Windry]

Currently:
Arcane will choose RoP for its mana regen.

Invocation gains per cycle:
(0% haste)
46 seconds = 40*1.25 -> 50000% DPS/46 seconds =
1.087 DPS

(20% haste)
45 seconds = 40*1.25 -> 50000% DPS/45 seconds =
1.1111 DPS

(30% haste)
44.6 seconds = 40*1.25 -> 50000% DPS/44.6 seconds =
1.121 DPS

Rune of Power gains per cycle:
61.5 seconds = 60*1.15 -> 69000% DPS/61.5 seconds =
1.12195 DPS

So, if you get 99% uptime on RoP without ever having to recast it before it ends, RoP > Invocation for Fire/Frost, and this is not taking into consideration AT, or the alignment of procs.... so RoP on Gara'jal maybe as Fire/Frost, otherwise Invocation (honestly, just stick with Invocation as Fire/Frost)

In 5.2:
The answer for Fire/Frost is this:
- If the encounter requires you to move and recast RoP less than once per minute, choose RoP
- If the encounter requires you to move and recast RoP more than once per minute, choose Invocation

[mrgreenthump]

Currently:
Arcane will choose RoP for its mana regen.

Invocation gains per cycle:
(0% haste)
46 seconds = 40*1.25 -> 50000% DPS/46 seconds =
1.087 DPS

(20% haste)
45 seconds = 40*1.25 -> 50000% DPS/45 seconds =
1.1111 DPS

(30% haste)
44.6 seconds = 40*1.25 -> 50000% DPS/44.6 seconds =
1.121 DPS

Rune of Power gains per cycle:
61.5 seconds = 60*1.15 -> 69000% DPS/61.5 seconds =
1.12195 DPS

So, if you get 99% uptime on RoP without ever having to recast it before it ends, RoP > Invocation for Fire/Frost, and this is not taking into consideration AT, or the alignment of procs.... so RoP on Gara'jal maybe as Fire/Frost, otherwise Invocation (honestly, just stick with Invocation as Fire/Frost)

In 5.2:
The answer for Fire/Frost is this:
- If the encounter requires you to move and recast RoP less than once per minute, choose RoP
- If the encounter requires you to move and recast RoP more than once per minute, choose Invocation

This is based on the assumption that a player don't know what he/she is doing?

You are skipping precasting both invoc and RoP completely. And not counting in alter time for that is a bit silly, as it "increases" the duration invoker's energy buff and does nothing for RoP..

[Tickspoon]

The biggest flaw in most Invocation calculations is assuming zero DPS during evocation. In fact it is more like 30-40% of what DPS would have been otherwise.

Right now Invocation is superior for fire/frost even on completely immobile fights. The 5.2 change is actually a significant nerf, making it worse than RoP on immobile fights.

[Televators]

I find this to be one of the worst T6 talent selections in the game. Blizzard scrapped their entire talent system throwing out phrases like "A talent that gives a straight DPS buff is not an interesting choice." and here we have an entire tier of straight damage buffs that require babysitting. Unimaginative and tedious. I'm not sure what the desired effect was, but it just feels really frustrating to pick any of these three.

[LocNess]

WTB Glyph of Shadowed Rune of Power - For 4 seconds after leaving your Rune of Power, a shadow of it follows you giving yourself the same benefits as standing in it.

[schwarzkopf]

WTB Glyph of Shadowed Rune of Power - For 4 seconds after leaving your Rune of Power, a shadow of it follows you giving yourself the same benefits as standing in it.

I'd be happy with Glyph of Buff of Power, same cast time, same duration - but casts on self. It can then disappear either after the duration, and the duration reduces on movement.

The big issue for me is casting it on the ground, it takes more time - breaks the rotation and is broken by too many mechanics (e.g. Elegon).

[Deleted]

RoP is a nice talent in terms of what it does, but encounter mechanics just ruin it too often, making you having to recast it, thus loosing out on dps time, breaking rotation or even loosing your charge stacks. Hate it...

[Sw1tch]

I see. I would like to see some raw numbers though.

I still feel as if putting RoP on instant cast with a lower then average GCD (.5-1 second) would completely eliminate it's issues. Maybe put the damage up to 17-18% and make the glyph of evocation do 2% max health. Hell, maybe make the rune last indefinitely. I love the concept of it, being rewarded for accurately plotting your mobility. But it just doesn't seem like you are rewarded for doing so.

Do you guys think the 5.2 evocation nerf will change this?

[mrgreenthump]

Do you guys think the 5.2 evocation nerf will change this?

The theoretical dps of invoc and RoP will be fairly close and even with full AT usage on ivoker's, RoP does fair bit more damage over all, but all of that is negated if the RoP user drops the RoP effect for even a second or has to move and recast it, when its allready a huge loss compared to invoc, as with invoc its cast once and forget it for the next 60-66 seconds and you don't have to move. Though just outright buffing RoP shouldnt be the answer, cause then every mage would just pick RoP and then hope to get the best possible uptime on it, making invoc as useless as RoP is currently.. I for one would be really mad, if I would ever feel that picking RoP for fire was better dps on a fight that has movement, it just kills the fun aspect of fire for me.

[Deleted]

Perhaps a RoP glyph that makes it instant cast?

[Imnick]

Perhaps a RoP glyph that makes it instant cast?

And what would the disadvantage be?

[Deleted]

I prefer to wait the start of the PTR before calculating something to compare Invocation and RoP.

But making ROP instant isn't interesting. Casting while running, maybe.

[zomgDPS]

A full page of posts and no one has actually answered the question the OP asked.

tut tut


Assuming 0 haste (and 5.1):

DPS multiplier = time_on_rop/(60+(1.5)) x 1.15

DPS multiplier_Invoc = time_spent_deepsing/(46) x 1.25

say you spend all 40 seconds deepsing with invoc, then

40/46 * 1.25 = ~1.08 (i.e. 8% damage boost)

say you spend all 60 seconds on your RoP

60/61.5 * 1.15 = ~1.12 (i.e. 12% damage boost)

But now you want to know how long must you stand on RoP before you it becomes better to take invoc?
Equate the two, you'll get

X/61.5 * 1.15 = ~1.08,

if you solve for X, you'll get ~58

This means, that at 0 haste you have to stand on RoP for at least 58 out of the 60 seconds it is active to make parity with Invoc. A bit silly, yes? Especially since the ct is 1.5 seconds.


This only gets worse with haste, since Invoc benefits from it more.
Remember though, this is assuming you got a full 40 seconds to DPS with Invoc. If your DPS uptime for invoc is less, then things change.

But they are almost balanced to be equivalent on the same uptime points. E.g. if you get only 35 seconds of deeps out of 40 with invoc (with 0 haste), your multiplier actually drops to 0.98 (less than 1) which means, barring raid specific events, it wasn't actually worth it to invocate in the first place.


So yea.

edit:
seems like windry provided some number upthread that i missed, same stuff though. somehow i missed it. damn lag.

[Sw1tch]

You used the 5.1 Invo stats, what does it look like for 5.2 when Invo is 1 min duration, half cast time, BUT 15%? (slightly tipsy, dont feel like doing maths)

[Deleted]

Blizz should just completely remove this tier and buff all Mage damage by 10-12% across the board. When I first saw these talents back then I thought the were cool and fun (i.e. the way they interact with different specs and figuring out which one works best for what encounter), but after this tier I just hate them.

[zomgDPS]

You used the 5.1 Invo stats, what does it look like for 5.2 when Invo is 1 min duration, half cast time, BUT 15%? (slightly tipsy, dont feel like doing maths)

Dude.. we all slightly tipsy at this point

5.2 changes things.


Assuming 0 haste (5.2):

DPS multiplier = time_on_rop/(61.5)) x 1.15

DPS multiplier_Invoc = time_spent_deepsing/(63) x 1.15

say you spend all 60 seconds deepsing with invoc, then

60/63 * 1.15 = ~1.095 (i.e. 9% damage boost)

say you spend all 60 seconds on your RoP

60/61.5 * 1.15 = ~1.129 (i.e. 12% damage boost)

But now you want to know how long must you stand on RoP before you it becomes better to take invoc?
Equate the two, you'll get

X/61.5 * 1.15 = ~1.09,

if you solve for X, you'll get ERROR!

With 100% uptime on both, RoP always wins (at 0 haste).


This result scales linerly with haste and makes sense, since both durations are now the same, but the cast-cost is half for RoP.
What is more interesting, is seeing what lee-way you have with them, i.e how much uptime do you need to make both 'worth it'.


If you crunch the numbers, you see that you need about a 90% uptime on RoP and a 91% dps uptime on Invoc to make them 'worth it'.

For invoc this means, basically, if you can't guarantee that you will have, at minimum, 55 out of the next 60 seconds of uninterrupted DPS uptime, it is not worth Evocating...
That's 5 seconds of "lee-way time".

Intrestingly, RoP gets 1 extra second of 'lee-way' time. Namely, due to the lead it has right at the start (at 100% uptime).





Side point:

The Math of the level 90 talents always did 'work', but as we all know, it wasn't the "math" that made them bads. It was the ideas themselves.


Stationary in raids for 54/60 seconds. Thats what RoP asked for. Raid mechanics just didn't really let that happen well.
Standing around channeling like a newbz for 6 seconds, while the boss spits his purple ooze-shit right in your face? Yea.. no thanks boss, I think I'll just take...


Incanters Ward. This spell needs some changes. I'm sure some are coming very soon (or at least I hope).