How much uptime and how many casts of RoP are required to pass Invocation?

[Elegiac]

Side point:

The Math of the level 90 talents always did 'work', but as we all know, it wasn't the "math" that made them bads. It was the ideas themselves.


Stationary in raids for 54/60 seconds. Thats what RoP asked for. Raid mechanics just didn't really let that happen well.
Standing around channeling like a newbz for 6 seconds, while the boss spits his purple ooze-shit right in your face? Yea.. no thanks boss, I think I'll just take...

Incanters Ward. This spell needs some changes. I'm sure some are coming very soon (or at least I hope).

But but...Lhivera said they were ok. :O

[zomgDPS]

But but...Lhivera said they were ok. :O

oh mang.. must be trufs den.

i dun goofed!

/happy

:P

[Elegiac]

oh mang.. must be trufs den.

i dun goofed!

/happy

:P

It's complete horse shit, to be honest. What dev thought it was a good idea to introduce a tier of talents designed around mana mangement despite the fact only one spec out of three even looks at their mana bar?

[zomgDPS]

It's complete horse shit, to be honest. What dev thought it was a good idea to introduce a tier of talents designed around mana mangement despite the fact only one spec out of three even looks at their mana bar?

Oh definitely. I would even go as far and say who thought it would be a good idea to have "mana management" which, supposedly, is what Arcane is 'all about', be something that is talented for.


I mean seriously, if a spec is about mana management, bake mechanics and tools for doing just that into the spec itself. Why even bother going to talents in the first place?

its like saying "destro is about big locky green fire nukes" then making chaos bolt a talent

/boggle

[Elegiac]

Oh definitely. I would even go as far and say who thought it would be a good idea to have "mana management" which, supposedly, is what Arcane is 'all about', be something that is talented for.

I mean seriously, if a spec is about mana management, bake mechanics and tools for doing just that into the spec itself. Why even bother going to talents in the first place?

its like saying "destro is about big locky green fire nukes" then making chaos bolt a talent

/boggle

I feel the same way about Shatter. -trollface-

I mean, it's not as bad as that tier of Polymorph talents, but still. The level 90 tier needs to simply be damage enhancement abilities. Like the Priest talents. Which I am hugely jealous of.

[LocNess]

Our class overall is a little chopped up compared to previous expansions, but changes on this scale (which I got slight acknowledgement to in my fire spec re design that has since died out /sadface) would require a post/pre expansion change, not in the middle. However I do think if we bitch and moan enough Blizzard will treat us nicely next expansion as they did with Warlocks, one can only hope.

[Deleted]

But the polymorph tier talent (in Beta) was so good that I cry a lot when they remove it ...

More seriously, the 90 tier talent really need a lot of love. They make me think of a french expression that can be literally translate to "it also make coffee".
Not only, they boost damage and give mana management tool. But, they also add gameplay factor, survivability and movement restriction, ... I have forget the self-heal with glyph of Evo.

So yes, they have to remove mana from the equation but not only

[Sw1tch]

Wait, those two spells really require THAT much uptime to be even worth the spell? Who the hell designed this. No one can maintain 90% uptime on RoP in virtually every fight. The only fight I can think of, is maybe Feng, or sha if you never get selected to go kill the other guy.

What a bad design.

[zomgDPS]

Wait, those two spells really require THAT much uptime to be even worth the spell? Who the hell designed this. No one can maintain 90% uptime on RoP in virtually every fight. The only fight I can think of, is maybe Feng, or sha if you never get selected to go kill the other guy.

What a bad design.

Hence the issue.

Funnily enough, this is the exact issue 'some' people don't seem to get. The math for the talents, as far as balancing them vs each other, is fine. (boring, but fine).

What fails is their real world execution. Which is precisely why mages who bring forth feedback from the front lines should and must be given heed, since it is their real world application that is failing.


Its the same reason why people will mock you if you come along and say "level 90 talents are fine, l2play" without having even stepped foot in a raid, or a rBG, or an arena, or a challenge mode, or any other form of real competitive environment in the game.
Heck, you don't only even need to see these talents fail in raids, you can just try to do PvP with Rune and see how laughable things get.

I mean obviously they are 'fine' in non-competitive environments. But then again, in non-competitive environments, everything is fine and no one gives a sh!t anyway (since they are, by definition, non-competitive).
Back in the day i could parade around naked outside of org with my 0/0/0 spec /y into the durotar dueling camps that "everything is fine, im non-competative! xD" and people would just ignore me for being the fool that i was being, rightly so too.


That being said, if we are lucky, the talents will not be able to escape the eye of blizz. Though recent tweets are disheartening since it seems blizz is perfectly fine with their design. I think they're clueless, but at the end, they are the ones that ca$h the checks.


We just need to get ready to make some noise. Constructive noise. But noise. And lots of it. We have 5.2 to change their minds.

[mrgreenthump]

Tbh the talents aint that wrong, if you take mana regen out of them, and rebalance them, remove the shield from incanters, and change how RoP works to make it so that RoP has a declining damage buff, Not so big that its worth recasting it(not too far either), but still nice if you need to move. But hey its just how I feel abt the talents..


Oh and am actually pretty fine with invoc when the 50% reduction comes.. I just think mana regen doesnt belong to the talents.

[Elegiac]

Tbh the talents aint that wrong, if you take mana regen out of them, and rebalance them, remove the shield from incanters, and change how RoP works to make it so that RoP has a declining damage buff, Not so big that its worth recasting it(not too far either), but still nice if you need to move. But hey its just how I feel abt the talents..

Oh and am actually pretty fine with invoc when the 50% reduction comes.. I just think mana regen doesnt belong to the talents.

Or just scrap all three and start from scratch.

[mrgreenthump]

Or just scrap all three and start from scratch.

Which is not going to happen during the expansion, and might even be that we are doomed to have these even in the next expansion. So making them fun to use now would prolly be the wisest idea atm..

[Sw1tch]

For the most part, we can all agree that any talk about scrapping an entire tier of talents simply won't happen. It isn't blizzards MO.

But they should have a specific goal in mind, and that is making it very worth it to cast it. Currently, as the math has shown, you need to have superb uptime to even make it worth it. Talents should be designed to be only net positives, instead of having a very real chance of negatively impacting you.

It goes against the entire philosophy of a talent based system, talents are supposed to be positive and only positive. Giving us talents which in many cases aren't even worth the cast is just ridiculous.

[Deleted]

A full page of posts and no one has actually answered
But they are almost balanced to be equivalent on the same uptime points. E.g. if you get only 35 seconds of deeps out of 40 with invoc (with 0 haste), your multiplier actually drops to 0.98 (less than 1) which means, barring raid specific events, it wasn't actually worth it to invocate in the first place.

Does this mean Incanters Ward beat Invocation? If not, how does it fare against RoP and Invocation? (with propper AT usage it should be very strong)

[Meillassoux]

Tbh I believe the sole reason behind this tier is decreasing the number of mage players which was pretty high and then slowly fix the tier in a way that the mage community will be happy but the number won't reach the sky again. Hate to admit it but blizz knows how to play the mind game or wow wouldn't be alive and well after all these years.

Invocation: If the 5:2 change stays I don't believe it won't be frustrating anymore. Every 1 min 2-3 channeling (based on haste) wont be anything maintaining. (give some aura indicating you have the buff)
Rune of Power: When the mage stays still for 3 secs a RoP appears under him giving the buff as long as he stays still and for 3 secs after moving (not doing the math but you get the concept)
Incanter's Ward: You don't have to receive damage in order to get the buff (buff scaled so it matches the other two). More situational than the rest but better if you time it well with cds proccs etc.

Personally I would prefer not having this tier at all but since it went live don't expect it to be removed easily in this or even the next expansion. It will haunt us for evah!

[Deleted]

zomgDPS, I hear you complainig a lot about other people saying wrong things or don't make any sense.
dude, your math is wrong:

But now you want to know how long must you stand on RoP before you it becomes better to take invoc?
Equate the two, you'll get
X/61.5 * 1.15 = ~1.08,
if you solve for X, you'll get ~58
This means, that at 0 haste you have to stand on RoP for at least 58 out of the 60 seconds it is active to make parity with Invoc. A bit silly, yes? Especially since the ct is 1.5 seconds.

with 5.2 changes you say:

But now you want to know how long must you stand on RoP before you it becomes better to take invoc?
Equate the two, you'll get

X/61.5 * 1.15 = ~1.09,

if you solve for X, you'll get ERROR!

With 100% uptime on both, RoP always wins (at 0 haste).

If you correctly solve the: "X/61.5 * 1.15 = ~1.09" Problem like you did with the "X/61.5 * 1.15 = ~1.08" The answer would be 58,3 sec for patch 5.2 rather than 57.8 sec for live patch.

=> If you stay more than 58,3 sec in RoP for 5.2 it is better than Invoc.

So the conclusion is:

If you are not able to stay more than 58,3 sec within a RoP (when 5.2 with currnt known changes hits) it is better to pick Invoc!

So you can fairly easy say: Invoc will always be better that RoP! Additionally Invos won't cut your movement ability. So mage lvl 90 talents will be dead for PvE... I's like to the the Invoc 40% glpyh heal with haste reduced to 2.5 secs.... yeah more heal in arena (cause less timew to kick - 2.5 sec freez/slow ftw)

I'll have much more to say about the 5.2 changes, but I'll post them in the official blizzard forums, and hope once again blizzard listens to my recommandations insted of just ignoring it and hotfix what I said a few days after the patch went live...

[zomgDPS]

So the conclusion is:

If you are not able to stay more than 58,3 sec within a RoP (when 5.2 with currnt known changes hits) it is better to pick Invoc!

Nope, the conclusion is what I mentioned in the bold.
Given equal up-time (which is the important point), RoP is better in 5.2 and will remain better through haste. That is a significant point with the 5.2 changes. (For context's sake, in 5.1, RoP is better than Invoc with equal uptime, but only until 42% haste, i.e. bloodlust, at which point, invoc becomes better). With 5.2, RoP will always be better, no matter the haste, which is a very significant difference between the two.
That was the point I was illuminating. Sorry you couldn't get that.

The other is a copy-paste error (if you notice, its the same format of my first post, I just didn't bother to change it since I did it in 2 mins), since the first post was actually asking about Invoc vs RoP, which is not what the second post is about (I just didn't bother to change it since it was 3am in the morning).


That being said, I am already preparing a very very thorough math post (with Logix's help) to cover almost all aspects of the level 90 talent design. So keep an eye out for it. I already have the results, just need to get some time to write out the post.

I think after you read that post, a lot will start becoming clear about what the real demands and the realities of the level 90 talents are.

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 01:24 PM ----------

So you can fairly easy say: Invoc will always be better that RoP!

No.. you cannot, because it isn't.

I would advise you actually do the math instead of pulling out random sh!t from your ass. I really cannot stand misinformation.


You didn't understand the math, that's fine, take some time out to understand it (its not hard). Maybe my follow up thread will help.

[Deleted]

Given equal up-time (which is the important point) [...]
I would advise you actually do the math instead of pulling out random sh!t from your ass. I really cannot stand misinformation.

Yeah I did. But the assumtion of equal uptime is the point... That's just theoretical. If you are not able to have an uptime of 58 sec for RoP the Invocation talent will become supperior to RoP....
I actively raid.... Haven't seen one fight in MoP where you could stand still for 58 sec out of 61.5 which would be ~94.3% of the time.
So in real situations with movement, where pure theory (mostly patchwork fights) doesn't work (isn't that the poit you criticize so much when talking about Lhivera? - well I didn't knwo him before, and am pretty sure you are right, he's producing some "strange" things), Invocation will be superior to RoP.

edit: by the way: that's what was asked in this thread.

[mrgreenthump]

I would advise you actually do the math instead of pulling out random sh!t from your ass. I really cannot stand misinformation.

There is no real need to be rude though. And if we really wanna get down to real maths here.. We should include pre-evocation, alter time and pre-casting RoP.. With all those counted(in 5.1), Invoc is better than RoP till 7-9 min mark in the fight depending on your haste. And thats not counting the higher damage output during Heroism.


And for proof lets take 20% haste for the fight(for simplicity's sake), and lets take 7,7 mins into the fight(as its the last time that invoc is infront with 20% haste).
This is fire with pre-evoc, pre-pyro, Hero at 0 and cancelling AT after 2 Pyro's.(cut some tiny corners in calculations cause they wont matter THAT much)

So.. for Invoc ((40*10+2*6+3)/(45*10+2*6+3-6))*1,25=1,13017... and without my silly mistake: (40*10+3*3)/(45*10+3*3-6))=1,12858...
And for RoP. ((8*60)/(60+(61,25*7)))*1,15=1,12941..

Oh and it seems cancelling AT 3 times made RoP better allready at 7,7 mins, so 7 mins is the cut off point:

Invoc ((40*9+3*3)/(45*9+3*3-6))*1,25=1,13051..
RoP (7*60)/(60+(61,25*6))=1,12982...

[Sw1tch]

Interesting. But I do believe the entire point of RoP is that if you can stand on it for a good amount of time, it should be better. Invocation was originally designed for predicting burn phases, and being the better for it (another bad design). IW had the same intention in mind, i think, but for fights that required mobility (garalon is a great example).

Honestly though, i'm not as concerned with RoP compared to Invo as I am concerned with how much uptime you need with RoP to be even worth the cast.