when will they change paladins to be a normal class?

[PaladinBash]

If I see the dice I hit the dice. I'll just vendor or DE it if I don't need it. If you want it that's too bad but I come first. I'm not running your dungeon to gear you up, I'm there to benefit myself.

[kleinlax21]

While I share the OP's distaste for the existence of int plate, I'm going to be constructive about my suggestions. There are two solutions, to my mind. Either:

- Change the armor type of spell plate to spell mail, changing the Armor Specialization for Holy Paladins to a mail based one. While this would be the first instance of intended armor type variation within a specialization (yes yes, I remember clothadins), it frees up a potential drop slot to benefit two other specs (Elemental and Restoration Shamans).
- Change another spec to be able to use spell plate. The easiest I can think of would be Unholy and/or Frost Death Knights.

GC actually tweeted about this recently, he mentioned UH/Frost's usage of melee weapons as barriers to realizing your second potential solution. He didn't address your first postulated solution so no comment there, other than I can't initially think of any downsides that can't easily be accounted for. {Edit: agreed, Shaman indeed to look stupid as hell. I gotta say no thanks to mail gear on my Holy Paladin unless it looks the exact same as Ret/Prot gear, which would mean a bunch of confused Shaman would be running around looking like Paladins haha. I don't see this happening, sorry man. Good suggestions though}

I really don't see a problem with Int plate as a whole because I feel like its presence doesn't constrain loot tables enough to warrant violent changes to how some class/spec works. GC said a while back that they would like to do away with it, but right now there isn't a better alternative than just letting it be.

Maybe a spec or two of Demon Hunters will use Int plate once they get added to the game
That is, if demon hunters wear plate at all lol

[Aquamonkey]

Just be glad Paly can't roll need on mail/leather/cloth anymore. I used to Need on everything with my Paly.

[Asmodias]

And you call yourself a mage. Sad.
It was via Molten Armor. Not a talent. Tsk.

Wait, I just got "tsk'ed"... I'm not sure how to feel about that. I'm allowed to not remember such things. I played Arcane in Wrath, Molten Armor wasn't even on my bar >.>

Okay, you win this round, but the day shall still be mine!

[Moshic]

The roll system itself is flawed, don't blame the paladin bot/brainless/dick for rolling just because he could.
Should be a system to Need on mainspec, Need for offspec. Greed/DE for everything else. Needing for offspec should only be enabled for that item if the item matches your actual offspec (tough shit there's no tri-spec at the moment). MS Need would always win over OS Need.

[Atrea]

Almost certain that this is false and that Warlocks got SP through spirit via Fel Armor and the Life Tap glyph. All Warlocks, not just Demonology ones. (although there was a talent in Demo (tier 2, every Warlock had it) that increased the SP spirit gave you.).

Then you'd be wrong.

While you are right in that Fel Armor's spellpower was increased by Spirit, and Glyph of Life Tap increased your spellpower after using Life Tap, Demonic Pact was a raid buff provided only by Demonology Warlocks. Demonic Pact increased the raid's spellpower by 10% of the Warlock's CURRENT spellpower.

As such, Spirit directly increased the effective buff granted by Demonic Pact, and most high-end raiding guilds of the day carried at least one Demonology Warlock geared completely in Spell Power/Spirit gear.

[Alenarien]

If you think Paladins are in any way overpowered at the moment, then I urge you to look beyond Lay on Hands/Divine Shield and realise we're mediocre at best.

If you're talking about gear rolls, they have plans to implement a system whereby you pick what spec you are rolling for at the beginning of an instance which, despite being primarily for LFR as far as I know, may be implemented in instances/heroics.

[Didactic]

GC actually tweeted about this recently, he mentioned UH/Frost's usage of melee weapons as barriers to realizing your second potential solution. He didn't address your first postulated solution so no comment there, other than I can't initially think of any downsides that can't easily be accounted for. {Edit: agreed, Shaman indeed to look stupid as hell. I gotta say no thanks to mail gear on my Holy Paladin unless it looks the exact same as Ret/Prot gear, which would mean a bunch of confused Shaman would be running around looking like Paladins haha. I don't see this happening, sorry man. Good suggestions though}

I really don't see a problem with Int plate as a whole because I feel like its presence doesn't constrain loot tables enough to warrant violent changes to how some class/spec works. GC said a while back that they would like to do away with it, but right now there isn't a better alternative than just letting it be.

Maybe a spec or two of Demon Hunters will use Int plate once they get added to the game
That is, if demon hunters wear plate at all lol

A barrier, yes, but not an insurmountable one. All that needs to be done is introduce a spellpower to strength conversion passive, like an inverse version of Sheathe of Light for Retribution Paladins.

Intellect Plate is a problem simply because it takes up a loot slot that punishes groups lacking Holy Paladins, whereas most other Armor types are more likely to be represented. Again, the easiest solution and the one entailing the least mechanic changes is simply pushing Holy Paladins towards a mail-wearing class.

One crazy idea I once had while drunk was actually making the -role- the determinant of armor type, rather than the class or spec. It would be as follows:

Healers: Cloth
Ranged DPS: Leather
Melee DPS: Mail
Tanks: Plate

[Noxiye]

Then you'd be wrong.

While you are right in that Fel Armor's spellpower was increased by Spirit, and Glyph of Life Tap increased your spellpower after using Life Tap, Demonic Pact was a raid buff provided only by Demonology Warlocks. Demonic Pact increased the raid's spellpower by 10% of the Warlock's CURRENT spellpower.

As such, Spirit directly increased the effective buff granted by Demonic Pact, and most high-end raiding guilds of the day carried at least one Demonology Warlock geared completely in Spell Power/Spirit gear.

True, but Demonic Pact was not *directly* affected by it. The glyph and Fel Armor were both requirements for spirit to give the raid extra SP. As you left the two effects that made spirit useful out, I'm right, you're wrong!

---------- Post added 2012-12-26 at 10:25 AM ----------

Healers: Cloth
Ranged DPS: Leather
Melee DPS: Mail
Tanks: Plate

Caster DPS are in Leather, then?
Hmm. 5 plate users, 6 cloth users, 12 leather users, 11 mail users. I don't think that'd be better than it is now.

[john duo]

If he was needing everything and you all agreed he shouldn't have been and it was that big a deal, why didn't you all vote kick him?

i did try, but the mobs and boss after boss sequence didnt allow..believe me..i tried

[Didactic]

Caster DPS are in Leather, then?
Hmm. 5 plate users, 6 cloth users, 12 leather users, 11 mail users. I don't think that'd be better than it is now.

Hence the 'crazy idea I had while I was drunk' :P

[john duo]

You give Death Knights a poor name and perpetuate the stereotype that we are all ignorant and entitled like yourself. Next time you go to complain about something as asinine and petty as this, please leave what class you represent out of it. Thanks.

Also, a 410 iLvL piece of gear with awesome stat itemization will frequently be preferred to a 419 iLvL piece with shit stats. The fact that it was a leg slot item (read: shit tons of secondary stats) means this will be an even more likely occurrence.

Learn about another class's design before you make yourself look like an ass on a public website.

stop talking out of your ass please,
if he Q as a tank, please have some courtesy on needing tank gear and not all kind of plate gear even lower than his, there are more players in this group other than him,
and dont tell me he is building his caped stats gear for lvl 90 at lvl 87, needing on lvl 410 dps plate when he is using tank ilvl 419 is pure greed cause he can...
that is the thing i want to be removed from the table, a class that can need on so many other classes gear, including that INT cape

[Stormdash]

I don't think there's any crying foul unless it's crit gear at this point, and even then, reforging can still make a lot of use for DPS plate for tanks.

[Atrea]

True, but Demonic Pact was not *directly* affected by it. The glyph and Fel Armor were both requirements for spirit to give the raid extra SP. As you left the two effects that made spirit useful out, I'm right, you're wrong!

Except that was pretty much the only reason it was used by Demonology Warlocks.

Aside from being useful in a raid, the Spirit severely limited the other secondary stats that Warlock could stack, and the spellpower gain did not make up for this. It was only because of how useful they became in a raid. Couple that with the fact that Demonology was a laughable spec up until 4.0 (when Demonic Pact changed to a static 10% increase), and it was literally the only reason they'd wear gear with spirit on it.

---------- Post added 2012-12-26 at 02:48 AM ----------

i did try, but the mobs and boss after boss sequence didnt allow..believe me..i tried

And I'm sure you cried about it the entire run, doing far less DPS than anyone else in the run while so doing.

Note that YOU, not the tank, are exactly the type of person I vote to kick in 5 man runs.

[mysticx]

How do you know this guy doesn't level as Ret, and simply queues as Prot for short queues?

That's the pally's problem really, if you're levelling as another spec than they're queueing as, that's no reason to roll on everything that isn't nailed down just because you can, want DPS-gear? queue as DPS.

Though getting worked up over ilevel 410 loot is a bit silly, it has become obvious that people just seem to be utterly unable to behave in a honest way without being forced to, so i'm hoping Blizz will put the LFR-style loot system into 5-mans soon, it's not the optimal solution, but the playerbase can't do better on their own.

[Atrea]

That's the pally's problem really, if you're levelling as another spec than they're queueing as, that's no reason to roll on everything that isn't nailed down just because you can, want DPS-gear? queue as DPS.

Though getting worked up over ilevel 410 loot is a bit silly, it has become obvious that people just seem to be utterly unable to behave in a honest way without being forced to, so i'm hoping Blizz will put the LFR-style loot system into 5-mans soon, it's not the optimal solution, but the playerbase can't do better on their own.

Well actually, I was referring to the fact that the OP continually states that the tank was 'probably' just leveling as Protection, and 'wouldn't use the gear anyway'.

And as I and others have said, "DPS gear" is not exclusively DPS gear. Every stat except Crit (which can be reforged) is viable for Protection Paladins.

[Rivelle]

Closing this. I'm sorry about your LFD experience but rant threads don't encourage constructive discussion and that's evident from the last two pages.