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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyful View Post
    More uptime with BW during prepot and all things proced.
    Which also take a few seconds to proc. Taking one of our best trinkets at the moment, Bottle of Infinite Stars, once procced stays active for 20 seconds. Unless it procs straight away you are going to have more uptime on Bestial Wrath with trinkets if you delay it just a slight amount. Prepot is up for the full duration regardless.

    Anyway red apples to slightly lighter red apples.

    EDIT:
    Just realized that you might have 4 piece T14. My calculations are from someone without. If you have 4 piece T14 you are correct and that prepot isn't going to be up for the whole Bestial Wrath anyway.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2012-12-26 at 06:25 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Asher13 View Post
    Oh please enlighten the forum with your unprecedented knowledge of Beast mastery, since what I said is completely wrong. While you're at it, could you provide some logs of your dps as a BM hunter so we can rejoice and marvel at your godlike abilities???
    I want to just say that

    Quote Originally Posted by Asher13 View Post
    As surv, with Lock and Load procs, it's exp shot, arc shot, exp shot, arc shot, exp shot. Otherwise, you waste ticks from the exp shots.
    Wasn't even right for cataclysm. You could do ES > ES > AS > ES or ES> AS > ES > ES and still get maximum ticks.

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  3. #23
    Well....you're wrong....but ok.

  4. #24
    Pandaren Monk Evela's Avatar
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    I appreciate the help!
    One thing that is still unclear to me though; avoid stacking FF/RF with BW, aim for stacking them, or indifferent?

    Cheers.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Asher13 View Post
    Well....you're wrong....but ok.
    You can keep thinking that you are always right, but what I said was 100% correct back in cataclysm. Back in around FL/DS they changed how ES worked which made you able to do the LnL rotation I posted above. Now it is just ES > ES > ES.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    I appreciate the help!
    One thing that is still unclear to me though; avoid stacking FF/RF with BW, aim for stacking them, or indifferent?

    Cheers.
    I only stack RF+BW in the opener then after that i use RF after BW. With FF i pop that right after BW is over.

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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    You can keep thinking that you are always right, but what I said was 100% correct back in cataclysm. Back in around FL/DS they changed how ES worked which made you able to do the LnL rotation I posted above. Now it is just ES > ES > ES.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure in T11 you had to let the previous Explosive Shot completely fall off before using the next one (not including travel time). I don't know if they changed it near the end of T11 or just before Firelands but I vaguely remember some theorycrafting me and a fellow Hunter did in the 10 man guild we used to be in. All of tier 11 and tier 12 is a bit of a blur for me though, only thing I well remember was the overbuffed Aimed Shot.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2012-12-26 at 07:46 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure in T11 you had to let the previous Explosive Shot completely fall off before using the next one (not including travel time). I don't know if they changed it near the end of T11 or just before Firelands but I vaguely remember some theorycrafting me and a fellow Hunter did in the 10 man guild we used to be in. All of tier 11 and tier 12 is a bit of a blur for me though, only thing I well remember was the overbuffed Aimed Shot.
    Yeah you couldn't do what I posted in t11. I can't remember exactly when they changed it though, but all I know is that you could do it during DS.

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  8. #28
    i don't recall exactly either, since I started playing in cata when SV got nerfed and MM was on top.. And it remained so in Firelands.. But yea I think it was in t13 actually that they made it so if you clipped at 1 sec left, it got added to the next one, just like all other dots.. So you could fire off two ES in a row and not lose ticks, but would lose one if you fired three in a row.. But ofcourse that's no longer the case..

    In asher's defense though, ES - AS - ES - AS - ES was the better option in cases where you were either under a lot of haste effects and would overcap focus, or if you were around ~75 focus cuz of that SV talent which I forget the name of, that had a chance on all hits to refund half of the focus cost. And it used to do that with the 'free' lnl ES as well.

    But why am I even talking about that rofl.. Ignore all that.. It's old news and irrelevant.. There is another thread here about the SV opener and you'll find all the info you want there..
    Last edited by Saoron; 2012-12-26 at 08:47 PM.

  9. #29
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    Yeah you couldn't do what I posted in t11. I can't remember exactly when they changed it though, but all I know is that you could do it during DS.
    They changed it in the 4.3.5 patch I think(The minor patch during DS)

  10. #30
    btw, off topic.. but wth is up with hunters on this forum and 'teh' in their names ? Did I miss something ? Is it a reference to something hunter related ? Or just a stupid coincidence lol

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Not going to argue what is or isn't right, nor am I going to tell you how to do things. But I quickly wanted to mention that you are losing 30 focus and a global cooldown with that order. Your list looks fine to me apart from the MoC just before Bestial Wrath and Dire Beast after Bestial Wrath. 30 focus is worth losing a global cooldown for in Bestial Wrath, the cooldown you are now losing by casting Dire Beast during Bestial Wrath more specifically. Dire Beast doesn't get any bonus from Bestial Wrath.

    If you switch the two around you should be seeing a admittedly tiny DPS increase.


    In case the OP is interested I use the following.

    Misdirect and prepot before the pull.
    -Serpent Sting.
    -Rapid Fire (just so I get some benefit from it before resetting with Readiness)
    -Stampede.
    -Lynx Rush (before Bestial Wrath, the last DoT applied with it makes it so all the stacks of the DoT are boosted by Bestial Wrath and I don't have to cast it during Bestial Wrath).
    -Dire Beast.
    -Bestial Wrath.
    -Kill Command.
    -Glaive Toss.
    -Arcanes (plural).
    -Kill Command.
    -Readiness -> Instantly do another Kill Command.
    -Glaive Toss.
    -More Arcanes till Bestial Wrath ends.
    -Dire Beast.
    -Bestial Wrath.
    -and so forth.

    It's not always possible but I try to delay my 2nd Bestial Wrath a little bit so I can use another Lynx Rush with the boosted Bestial Wrath damage. But you need to time this in a way so you don't lose ticks from the previous Lynx Rush, not more than one at least.

    With that said, it's important knowing what scales dynamically (updates during the ability as you gain or lose procs) when considering Bestial Wrath. Murder of Crows for example updates it's damage with the Bestial Wrath bonus. If you cast it before Bestial Wrath and then use Bestial Wrath after the cast, the ticks during Bestial Wrath will do 10% more damage. However same can be said the other way around, the damage bonus is lost when Bestial Wrath ends.

    Major one is Stampede. Stampede pets update dynamically (explained before what it means) so you want to cast it just as trinkets and stuff come off cooldown. Not as soon as they run out.

    EDIT:
    Aaaand I'm an idiot, I forgot to mention what spec this was for. It should be somewhat obvious but this is a Beast Mastery opening. Survival isn't that complicated and the same rules apply, cast things early as they come off cooldown for the most part.
    I use the same rotation as Joyful, and even though he has explained everything admirably, I will explain in a bit more detail.

    -10 Set up Traps
    -5 MD
    -1 Prepot
    0 SrS
    +1 MoC
    +2 Stampede/Rapid Fire
    +3 KC/Cooldowns
    +4 Dire Beast
    +5 Glaive Toss
    +6 AS
    +7 CoS
    +8 AS
    +9 KC
    Readiness
    +10 KC
    +11 DB
    +12 GT
    +13 CoS (Before your first RF expires for Haste boost)
    +14 AS/BW (First expires here)
    +15 AS
    +16 KC
    +17 AS
    +18 AS
    +19 AS
    +20 AS
    +21 AS
    +22 KC
    Once BW Expires, find a good place to pop your second Rapid Fire. By this point you should also have 5 stacks of Focus Fire, which can also be popped (Not with Rapid fire though)

    AS Joyful has said, your initial opener is not limited by focus cost, only by GCD's and by DPC's (Damage Per Cast), The 30 focus cost loss on your initial MoC does nothing whatsoever.

    As for using DB during your BW, you have to or risk losing out on your Pre Pot during BW. 10% extra damage is no where near the 4000 AGI you lose by waiting.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Arktem View Post
    As for using DB during your BW, you have to or risk losing out on your Pre Pot during BW. 10% extra damage is no where near the 4000 AGI you lose by waiting.
    Yup I realized we were both a little disjointed about that. I corrected myself by saying that what I said was without the 4 piece T14 bonus. With the 4 piece bonus my 'method' is wrong as you indeed lose out on prepot time. Without, you can perfectly fit everything in your prepot so the global cooldown during Bestial Wrath is wasted.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2012-12-27 at 02:07 AM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Arktem View Post
    I use the same rotation as Joyful, and even though he has explained everything admirably, I will explain in a bit more detail.
    I actually got it from you, from another thread

  14. #34
    The Patient
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    Well actually you can use Focus Fire in the last ~2 seconds of Bestial Wrath to give your pet a focus boost and an extra Wild Hunt Bite/Claw/Smack before it ends as the amount of extra attacks gained in that small amount of time wouldn't amount to a Wild Hunt special ability damage.

    Asher13, if you're going to try and help someone in future and just write out a massive list trying to look like the most knowledgeable Hunter in all of the land at least make sure you're write about everything. Then when somebody corrects you don't reply with something like "Oh lawl, couple abilities on dis openur rong way round, does it even matur!? lel".
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  15. #35
    For survival, I recommend you go.
    ES - Main cooldown, get this off ASAP + Hunters mark for the rest of your abilities if you are the only hunter.
    BA - High Dpf and resets ES, you want this up ASAP and you want to apply this as the CD comes available.
    Srs - Inifinite dpf and extremely strong, get this off early in the fight.
    RF - Contrary to Bm, Survival is very focus starved at the start of the fight, use this in prep for the 60 focus drop on Amoc
    DB - Similar to RF you should get this off for AMOC prep.
    GT - Position yourself to have any adds between you and the boss, other than that use this on CD instead of a AS for focus dump.
    ES - by this time ES is off Cd, if it is, use it, if it is not, CS till you can cast both AMOC and ES, this will let you never waste the ES Cd.
    Stampede - high damage, get this off during the last 5-6 seconds of RF.
    AS - Only AS if you have spare 25+ focus, it's good damage and a good dump, but you should always prioritize ES and BA over this.
    BA - Refresh this around this time, Directly after that use readiness.
    ES - After readiness, use ES get that on Cd ASAP for BA procs.
    RF - Again, use this in preparation for AMOC.
    AMOC - once the Dot is finished, reapply this.
    BA - when the dot from the BA you used before readiness has <1 second left, reapply it.
    Continue using ES and BA on cd mixing in cobra shots and arcane shots for focus manipulation.

    And use RF during bloodlust, the added haste is amazing. All of this should be done in the first 30 seconds or so of the fight, the rest is really simple in using CDs and managing focus. you can prepot and such if you want. MD is also nice to throw in ~5 seconds before the pull. this opening works out very well for how bad my gear is, and will only get stronger with the more haste and crit you have.

  16. #36
    I still don't understand why people are using CoS' mid-BW. You don't need the focus and it's a lower DPET than Arcane Shot.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by gulder View Post
    I still don't understand why people are using CoS' mid-BW. You don't need the focus and it's a lower DPET than Arcane Shot.
    It's to maintain SrS during BW so you can have it up for the entire duration and the rest of the fight (if the fight allows it) which is a much higher DPET than Arcane Shot. With also no wasted GCDs in the opener.

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  18. #38
    I see in some people's rotations on here that they are using Murder of Crows before their Bestial Wrath. Is that really worth it? Bestial Wrath will cut the focus down of it down to 30 focus. I doubt we're very focus-starved even after blowing 60 focus, but it's worth wondering about.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Penguintamer View Post
    I see in some people's rotations on here that they are using Murder of Crows before their Bestial Wrath. Is that really worth it? Bestial Wrath will cut the focus down of it down to 30 focus. I doubt we're very focus-starved even after blowing 60 focus, but it's worth wondering about.
    With RF and BW procced you wont even notice the 30 focus difference at the beginning, in fact you will still most likely get capped.

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  20. #40
    Well hey I don't want to keep on whining about my 2nd (I think) post but I've done heroic Protectors tonight with Murder of Crows. Normally I use Lynx Rush but the random jumps aren't helping with the 2 other protectors up. I tried using Murder of Crows before and after Bestial Wrath and I could not keep my focus up if I used it before the Bestial Wrath. I've compared hasterating of myself and some of the experienced Hunters here and while it is lower, it's not that much lower. Not enough to make the difference at least.

    If I had the 4 set bonus I think I would be flat out focus starved during the Bestial Wrath.

    I'm not here to complain or whine, or say I'm right and someone else is wrong. I'm merely trying to figure out why I've having focus issues if I use Murder of Crows before the Bestial Wrath. Tehstool and Joyful both know what they are doing so I'm not doubting them being wrong. I just... don't grasp the problem.

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