1. #1
    Mechagnome bloodwulf's Avatar
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    Create my own guild or expect change?

    Here is the situation.
    In Cataclysm my guild raided regularly with some pretty reasonable success (we did not raid heroics or anything, but as a casual 2 night 10 man we were happy). I was the top dps in the guild (rogue with legendaries) and times were good. Fast forward to MOP. I get promoted to raid leader and an officer because our current raid leader and main tank just had a new born. I level my druid to tank. I get geared in best i can get preraiding, and spend the time running others and figuring out our raid team. Come raid night, people who have committed to raiding with us, decide they only want to show up on occasion.
    Also the guild leader who was absent all of Cata has returned and pretty much requested a raid spot. Wouldn't be a problem, but he knows very little about his class, and refuses to research on his own (i had to explain to him that he still was able to throw a weapon, because he kept dying while leveling because, as he put it "rogues don't have a ranged pull ability). Out of the 6-7 that do show, only about 4 of them pull what should be expected of themselves. The guild leader also frequently causes unnecessary raid damage by dropping flames from 2nd boss MSV in raid or hitting various other bombs in boss fights, all because he refuses to even consider using DBM (not saying it is necessary for everyone, but since he causes such an issue it would probably help him). Only one of the other officers even attempt to help organize things, to the point that I got griped at by the guild leader because I did not issue a calender invite for a raid (even though the same people show up every week). Guild Leader does not want us to recruit to fill empty raid spots, because he is worried about inviting "assholes" to the guild, so he would rather people level alts to fill missing roles.

    My dilemma is this: Guild is unlikely to pull itself together to get to raiding quality, so being on a high population server, I want to make my own guild. The issue comes that if I leave the guild they will lose their main tank and raid leader, as well as off tank (close friend that I personally have raided with for three years) and maybe a dps and healer, essentially guaranteeing them not raiding again. I like most of the people in the guild, just with the return of the guild leader, we have not been able to accomplish anything this expack.


    TLDR
    Guild leader returned to raiding, and has caused us to essentially not progress at all this expack (down 2 bosses of MSV, I have run PUGs that have downed all of MSV), I want to quit but if I do, friends who remain in the guild will either have to quit or give up raiding entirely, because guild leader does not want to recruit.

    Bonus Question:
    Is attempting to form a 25 man from scratch feasible or should i still stick with 10 if i do create my own guild.
    "Allons-y!" - David Tennant - 10th Doctor.
    "Bow ties are cool." - Matt Smith - 11th Doctor.

  2. #2
    Honestly, raiders prefer lvl 25s for the perks. Better off just looking for a new lvl 25 raid guild that meets your needs. New guilds are often too much work. If you really want to create one, start with 10 and work to 25.

  3. #3
    I had the same problem back in WOTLK but with different circumstances. We had a guild that had a (click) of friends. They would run ten mans and wouldnt give a shit about the second 10 man team. They would rob players from our group to fill ours, basically screwing us over week after week. They leaders and officers didn't give a shit though for they're happy. In my opinion dude, if you have at least 4-5 other people that can follow you to make a guild go for it. As beastmaster stated above, its hard to start a new guild. You may be out of players or raiders for a while until you fill your spots but if you have tanks and a possible healer you can pick up dps alot easier.

    Also begin with a 10 man. To start a 25 man right off seems like way to much of a hassle, and you would probably go right back to a ten man.

    Oh also with the shit guild I was in, me and friends from there maybe 5 of us left and formed a guild. And we were able to recruit good players and down ICC 10 man when it was without all the buffs.

  4. #4
    Mechagnome bloodwulf's Avatar
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    I have a level 25 bank guild, guess i should of mentioned that.
    "Allons-y!" - David Tennant - 10th Doctor.
    "Bow ties are cool." - Matt Smith - 11th Doctor.

  5. #5
    Alright, here's my opinion.

    Since you have a level 25 guild already, I would advice you to leave your guild, and start your own guild.

    Though I consider it better if you talk to your current Guild Master and let him know what is happening, or what are you feeling about the whole raiding atmosphere in the guild.

    Another point is, that since you are saying that some raiders in that guild are your "friends", it is not hard to convince them to come with you and join your guild, and raid with you.

    Anyways, talk to your Guild Master first, and if he agrees to fix the wrong things, then give him a chance. But if he doesn't, take your friends and go make your own guild. It shouldn't be hard for you to recruit good people nowadays.

  6. #6
    Moderator Shamanic's Avatar
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    As you already have a level 25 bank guild I'm going to say just leave. I spent the second half of Wotlk and the first half of Cata being an officer in a guild trying to mix and match competitive and casual people with a guild leader who didn't really want to put in the work to keep the guild pushing progression but at the same time, always expected a raid spot, resulting in tension and confusion and quite frankly it's impossible to please everyone. Leaving to create my own guild was the best thing I ever did, even though at the time, I was really torn and felt like I was hurting what were essentially nice people who just didn't want to raid in the same way I did when I left and took the good people with me.

    It sounds like you've worked hard, you understand and have experience with the responsibilities of running a raid team, you're going to be better off recruiting (especially on a high population server), and gathering 10 people who are all roughly having the same experience/skills/goals so you can push towards what you want to achieve in sync. You're a step above a lot of the raiders in your guild from the sounds of it, and I'm not saying that to be negative/critical, it's just the way it is, we do not all raid on the same level.... and you're worried about hurting the guild by taking their main tank and that's commendable, but ultimately you're damaging a game you pay to have entertainment on.

    It is not your responsibility to ensure that their guild survives, harsh as it sounds. It's your responsibility to ensure that you're having a good time and getting what you want from this game - ideally without being a complete douche and screwing people over for no reason. Now it sounds like you've tried, you've led their raid team, you've tried to help them, but it's not working out.... at some point I think it's better to realise that you want more from a raiding guild and if you enjoy leading then starting your own is a great option. Just explain it to them and leave on good terms if you can - at the end of the day if he refuses to recruit then he can't want to raid that badly and that's his choice.
    Last edited by Shamanic; 2012-12-27 at 10:24 PM.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Midy View Post
    Anyways, talk to your Guild Master first, and if he agrees to fix the wrong things, then give him a chance. But if he doesn't, take your friends and go make your own guild. It shouldn't be hard for you to recruit good people nowadays.

    Sounds like a fair assessment. Would be worth a try before converting your bank guild into a raid guild.

  8. #8
    Leading sucks. Unless you WANT to lead, do not let yourself be shoehorned into being a guild or raid leader just because you are a good player or nobody else wants to step up or whatever. Groups with reluctant leaders tend to fall apart or get stalled very easily. A group leader should want to lead, simple as that. You will be doing yourself and your group a disservice by leading with half a heart. I suggest finding a group where you don;t have to lead, or, in the case you want to lead, you should outline some clear policies and even a group mission statement to abide by going forward, and recruit more than the 10 or 25 you need to raid so that there will be some competition and a way to enforce accountability to group policy without neutering the group's nightly run.

    Good luck! (but seriously leading sucks just join a group with strong leadership)
    "Brevity is...wit"

  9. #9
    Mechagnome bloodwulf's Avatar
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    I enjoy raid leading, and I enjoy the responsibilities attached with it. To give you an idea, the summer before MOP released, i created a spread sheet of what players we had returning, and who can play what and who wanted to play what. Than the guild leader returned, and at first i tried hard to work him into it, and still do at this point, but he is a very obtuse individual. He does his own things his own way. When i joined this guild a more than a year ago, he was not around, so we did not deal with him. We were also way more successful than. I have spoken with him on numerous occasions, and he often argues about what the problem is. I know our biggest issue is dps (or lack thereof), we can't meet enrage timer on Gara'jal normal. I have shown him meters, and I run world of logs, and explain that people need to have a target dps of X, and 3 of our people are doing 10-15k less than X dps. He also refuses to use addons himself, but relies on others to have them to call stuff out for him.
    "Allons-y!" - David Tennant - 10th Doctor.
    "Bow ties are cool." - Matt Smith - 11th Doctor.

  10. #10
    seems like he is using his status as a guild master to get things he shouldn't be getting. give him a ultimatum, either he starts pulling his weight or you leave and take the majority of the team with you.

    you already have a lvl 25 guild waiting, so just go there. if he is truly as you describe him to be then the other raiders will follow you in a heartbeat.
    Quote Originally Posted by tkjnz
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  11. #11
    If you've spoken with him privately several times and he refuses to acknowledge your concerns then it would be best to go your own way. Sometimes it is simply that people have different goals for what they want to achieve in game. I know it seems corny, but having a group mission statement can go a long way in defining what your group is about, what you expect from your raiders, and what your raiders can expect from each other and you. It can prevent frustration due to raiders having conflicting goals.

    Some folks are content to raid at a sub-average level because they are doing it with people they enjoy being with, while others will tolerate raiding with people they would likely not associate with if not for the sake of progress. Still others are lucky enough or have worked hard enough to achieve both. No small feat.

    I was raiding on a realm and in a guild that I knew would be slow to progress because of similar issues as those you describe. I left them (no small decision) and realm transferred in search of progress. I found progress, but am doing it with folks whose company I don't enjoy as much, which is hard. Try and split amicably if you do. I logged into an old alt of mine last friday and joined my old team in vent and listened in as they achieved their first Garajal normal kill. I felt good for them to finally achieve it, good for me that I had escaped that slow to progress environment, and good for all of us that we had remained friendly enough for them to want me to log into vent more often during their raid nights to shoot the shit.
    "Brevity is...wit"

  12. #12
    Mechagnome bloodwulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by herpecin View Post
    seems like he is using his status as a guild master to get things he shouldn't be getting. give him a ultimatum, either he starts pulling his weight or you leave and take the majority of the team with you.

    you already have a lvl 25 guild waiting, so just go there. if he is truly as you describe him to be then the other raiders will follow you in a heartbeat.
    I am really leaning toward leaving, and I appreciate all the opinions you guys have put out. The biggest thing holding me back is the fact that there are people i care for in the guild, who have a bunch of nonraiding friends in the guild. I don't want to put them at a point of choosing me or their other friends, but I know if I leave, the group that goes with me will effectively kill off any hopes of remainders doing anything raid wise. I basically don't want to create a bunch of drama for the people that remain behind because they trusted me to lead the raids for them, and it has come to a point of just being impossible.
    "Allons-y!" - David Tennant - 10th Doctor.
    "Bow ties are cool." - Matt Smith - 11th Doctor.

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