1. #1

    Tough trinket decision...

    BrM/WW Monk I now have 3 viable trinkets...

    Relic of Xuen (2x upgrade)
    Terror in the Mists (normal)
    Bottle of Infinite Stars (lfr)

    I really like the Relic but I am torn...
    Last edited by Toddrick; 2012-12-26 at 05:44 PM.

  2. #2
    Is the bottle upgraded?
    If no, the answer is going to Relic.
    If yes, Relic still should win out.

  3. #3
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    I'd say Relic + Terror. Static agil is more useful than proc agil imo.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  4. #4
    Moderator Callimonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    I'd say Relic + Terror. Static agil is more useful than proc agil imo.
    I thought Bottle's proc was up nearly constantly? I've never actually won one - I've only looked at logs of people who use it - so I could very well be wrong.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by alysmera View Post
    I thought Bottle's proc was up nearly constantly? I've never actually won one - I've only looked at logs of people who use it - so I could very well be wrong.
    It's around 45% or something, Relic still beats the LFR version and the normal Terror.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by alysmera View Post
    I thought Bottle's proc was up nearly constantly? I've never actually won one - I've only looked at logs of people who use it - so I could very well be wrong.
    uptime is 40%
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  7. #7
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alysmera View Post
    I thought Bottle's proc was up nearly constantly? I've never actually won one - I've only looked at logs of people who use it - so I could very well be wrong.
    I believe the ICD is 45 seconds which would make 44% the best possible uptime if it proc'd the instant that was up. My average uptime between 7 fights was 31% but some fights it does peak about 41%.
    Last edited by SurrealNight; 2012-12-26 at 06:42 PM.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  8. #8
    Relic + Terror looks pretty good to me!

  9. #9
    relic + bottle

    bottle + STM dmc trinket if u have if u are undergeared
    Monk tank in <Liquicity>, a Swedish 10m guild on Neptulon-EU 16/16 HC

  10. #10
    I forgot to add that Mr. Robot had, at the time I checked last week, this as their ranking:

    Heroic Bottle > Normal Bottle > Heroic Terror > Relic (2x upgrade) > LFR Bottle > Normal Terror

    Is LFR bottle really better than normal terror?

  11. #11
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toddrick View Post
    Is LFR bottle really better than normal terror?
    You speaking about WW or BrM? OP mentioned he was trying to find a combo for both. For WW AMR would tell you to go with Xuen(upgraded) + Bottle(LFR) until he got Terror(upgraded) or Bottle(normal and/or upgraded). For BrM it's Xuen(upgraded) + Terror(normal). Though for WW probably best to Sim with each combo as it can probably depend on his other gear/stats.

    All three are good but Terror vs Bottle depends on spec which he could easily swap per fight anyways. The issue with BrM is trinket procs aren't reliable for improving your mitigation. Who is to say that the 40% of the time Bottle is proc'd isn't when you are off tanking? Factor in the time the trinket is up while actually tanking drives it's value down a lot cause that probably cuts it in half on fights you spend 50% actively tanking the boss.

    Since OP is concerned about his WW set I'm going to assume he goes DPS for the 1 tank fights so always dealing with a "50% tanking" scenario.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Toddrick View Post
    I forgot to add that Mr. Robot had, at the time I checked last week, this as their ranking:

    Heroic Bottle > Normal Bottle > Heroic Terror > Relic (2x upgrade) > LFR Bottle > Normal Terror

    Is LFR bottle really better than normal terror?
    AMR is also putting reforges into that ranking, mouseover the trinket in the absolute list, and you see where it shows "Reforge: Mastery -> Hit" because AMR has hit valued crazy high.

    If you check the values without any reforges, it goes Relic 2/2 > Terror 2/2 > Relic 1/2 > Terror 1/2 > Relic 0/2 > Terror 0/2 > LFR trinkets
    With haste/crit reforge on the bottles: Relic 2/2 > Terror 2/2 > Relic 1/2 > Terror 1/2 > Relic 0/2 > LFR Bottle 2/2 > Terror 0/2 > LFR Bottle 1/2 > 0/2

    If you can manage to get a normal mode Bottle, it will be better than both outright. More or less, I wouldn't trust AMR anymore for anything. Even checking my own gearset in there, it gives me totally wrong information.

  13. #13
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Why would you NOT take reforging into consideration for all gear slots? You need the hit cap right? Well that is 382 hit towards your cap so you can reforge other gear to Haste/Crit sooner.

    Maybe not rate it based on hit's rating but I almost always end up forging my Bottle to Crit since I have enough haste from gear already.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    Why would you NOT take reforging into consideration for all gear slots? You need the hit cap right? Well that is 382 hit towards your cap so you can reforge other gear to Haste/Crit sooner.

    Maybe not rate it based on hit's rating but I almost always end up forging my Bottle to Crit since I have enough haste from gear already.
    If you can reach hard hit(or expertise) caps without the use of reforged bottle, then the only net gain of the bottle is via haste crit or mastery (so in the brm case haste/crit).

    In other words, the only time you should consider the HIT/EXPERTISE reforge that AMR or any other algorithm based optimal gearing are telling you is if you wouldn't be able to reach the said caps reforging around the rest of your gear.

  15. #15
    That's the point. AMR will only show "the best stat weight value", so if hit is worth 3 points (as their site lists it), then with it will always reforge to hit. I think the second best stat value on AMR is expertise? AMR only cares about getting the highest value from stat weights. Are you honestly going to reforge your bottle to give you hit or expertise? As a raiding Windwalker it's probably 100% not going to happen unless you're that desperate for that rating. If you're going to use haste or crit for the reforge value, then that needs to be taken into consideration instead.

  16. #16
    Terror and Relic, not even really a choice.

  17. #17
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    Are you honestly going to reforge your bottle to give you hit or expertise?
    Possibly yes, what ever is the most efficient way to as close to 2550 hit and 2550/5100 expertise without going over and wasting rating is what a reforge calc is going to consider, especially since it's forging away a "worthless" stat such as Mastery compared to other gear with higher weighted stats.

    Pretty sure I've had brief times at lower gear where Bottle was being used for Hit/Expertise but right now I have to forge out of hit due to current gear so it's going into Crit. For me as BrM if you change the rankings to "Relative" it uses Mastery->Haste in the calc which results in fully upgraded N Bottle as BiS. Already discussed the fact that BrM's benefit more from the static value than the proc's on trinkets but saying you shouldn't consider the reforged value of the Mastery at all in the calc is pretty silly.
    Last edited by SurrealNight; 2012-12-27 at 06:23 PM. Reason: Meant "Relative" not "Absolute"

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  18. #18
    I'm not advocating ignoring the reforge at all. What I said was that AMR will only show the "optimal" reforge, which for them is always going to be the highest stat weight (usually hit or expertise). Unless you manually put in your own weights, and your hit/exp isn't higher than the others, it will always be chosen for the reforge option on AMR. This isn't actually optimal, but for them it is. AMR only cares about getting the highest score possible. Wasn't until recently that they had to put in the "Force Hit/Expertise Cap" option in the settings, because it was putting people well below the hit/exp break points.

    From earlier:
    If you check the values without any reforges, it goes Relic 2/2 > Terror 2/2 > Relic 1/2 > Terror 1/2 > Relic 0/2 > Terror 0/2 > LFR trinkets
    With haste/crit reforge on the bottles: Relic 2/2 > Terror 2/2 > Relic 1/2 > Terror 1/2 > Relic 0/2 > LFR Bottle 2/2 > Terror 0/2 > LFR Bottle 1/2 > 0/2
    The trinkets could adjust a bit, but it shouldn't be that much. I also pulled the stat weights from using Sim craft for myself earlier this month before I started tanking and adjusting my WW gear a bit. Either way, it shouldn't be some crazy swing that magically puts LFR bottle ahead of either Normal trinkets.

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