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  1. #41
    But taking EB means you are forced to hardcast.

    You might ignore most LB hardcasting scenarios (though MSVx4 is not really bad imo). With EB, you are forced to hardcast, since it's your most important rotation button.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-03 at 12:31 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Pantsless View Post
    If maelstrom weapon would be an actual resource, like focus or energy, or at least if it stacked to 10 , allowing us to manage/pool MW, then we wouldn't be having this dilemma. I will never understand how is it possible for such an outdated and out of tune mechanic to be ignored by blizz. hardcasting should be an option, not a part of our rotation.
    Blizzard has a long history of making design decisions that are hard to understand, remeber Fire Nova back in Cataclysm? And now they falow the trend with EB and hardcasting.
    Enhancement can be happy that they'Re pretty okay right now - but not mechanic wise, they just buffed our single target dps to be competitive. I fear that a big chunk of our dps came from our overpowered set bonuses, When we lose them and get only normal set bonuses, we will fall behind the classes that get ony 2% increases where we get 6%.

  2. #42
    Stood in the Fire Xanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post

    Making it an instant cast for enhancement would result in a big buff for enhancement that could close the gap.
    This. It's the only way i could pick this talent over UF or PE.
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  3. #43
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    But taking EB means you are forced to hardcast.

    You might ignore most LB hardcasting scenarios (though MSVx4 is not really bad imo). With EB, you are forced to hardcast, since it's your most important rotation button.[COLOR="red"]
    Once again, in a world where you EB is the strongest talent - you don't have to take it still. Just like you choose not to hardcast.

    If you don't want bother to play optimally anyway why should it matter that this talent gives 1k more dps? You're already dropping 500+ from the lack of hardcasting.

    It wouldn't be the top talent in every situation even if it were top averaged. The other talents would likely still be competitive. Fact is you can probably find people in similar gear to you (general you not particularly at klatar) using different talents and doing similar/better dps, somewhere. Even if you do frequently hit high ranks. I know that I was ranking most nights in my guild (private logs) even when I use using EB or PE, while everyone else was using UF. I noticed a dps increase on some fights using UF, but I don't enjoy that talent as much so unless the kill is that tight I won't take it. There will be people who own my dps in my gear too, in fact I remember the rank 1 a couple months ago now being in similar gear to what I had on elegon.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Once again, in a world where you EB is the strongest talent - you don't have to take it still. Just like you choose not to hardcast.

    If you don't want bother to play optimally anyway why should it matter that this talent gives 1k more dps? You're already dropping 500+ from the lack of hardcasting.

    It wouldn't be the top talent in every situation even if it were top averaged. The other talents would likely still be competitive. Fact is you can probably find people in similar gear to you (general you not particularly at klatar) using different talents and doing similar/better dps, somewhere. Even if you do frequently hit high ranks. I know that I was ranking most nights in my guild (private logs) even when I use using EB or PE, while everyone else was using UF. I noticed a dps increase on some fights using UF, but I don't enjoy that talent as much so unless the kill is that tight I won't take it. There will be people who own my dps in my gear too, in fact I remember the rank 1 a couple months ago now being in similar gear to what I had on elegon.
    It´s funny how we tend to fall into this mind sets where the moment someone points out that some particular play styles is "the best" we just make it our "mandatory" style as well. Its a choice to hard cast, its a choice to use EB just as it was a choice to use a SP weapon back in FireLands.

    If you are a progression minded player then you choose to do all those things because what you enjoy is to get the max dmg possible. Not everyone is like that nor should we be. I never used SP weapons ever, didn´t care that it was the max setup, I stuck to my 2 slow agi weapons all the way. Worst of all, most people don´t realise that most of the time the difference between "the best theoretical choice" and the one you just like is just a few % points which are easily overcomed by your own performance, conection and raid encounter.

    I just say, gear up with the best gear you can get your hands on and play your class the way you find more fun. If you hate hard casting you are probably gonna suck at it so don´t bother.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Once again, in a world where you EB is the strongest talent - you don't have to take it still. Just like you choose not to hardcast.

    If you don't want bother to play optimally anyway why should it matter that this talent gives 1k more dps? You're already dropping 500+ from the lack of hardcasting.

    It wouldn't be the top talent in every situation even if it were top averaged. The other talents would likely still be competitive. Fact is you can probably find people in similar gear to you (general you not particularly at klatar) using different talents and doing similar/better dps, somewhere. Even if you do frequently hit high ranks. I know that I was ranking most nights in my guild (private logs) even when I use using EB or PE, while everyone else was using UF. I noticed a dps increase on some fights using UF, but I don't enjoy that talent as much so unless the kill is that tight I won't take it. There will be people who own my dps in my gear too, in fact I remember the rank 1 a couple months ago now being in similar gear to what I had on elegon.
    I'm confused by this response. You're the one that tried to deride other people's preferred play styles as "suboptimal" because they hate hard casting. They are already choosing to play for enjoyment vs eeking out a few extra DPS, and many have said they'd still pick UF if EB was on top.

  6. #46
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    I'm confused by this response. You're the one that tried to deride other people's preferred play styles as "suboptimal" because they hate hard casting. They are already choosing to play for enjoyment vs eeking out a few extra DPS, and many have said they'd still pick UF if EB was on top.
    People have been against EB buffs because they don't like hardcasting, read the thread. Also what you mean tried?

  7. #47
    I have a quick question. I played and enhance shaman as an alt in cata and ive finally got around to lvling it. Would the EM/PE combo make the rotation pretty much the same as it was? Just looking at it, i kind of like those choices the best, especially if the cd on EM is being reduced in 5.2.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by ohiostate124 View Post
    I have a quick question. I played and enhance shaman as an alt in cata and ive finally got around to lvling it. Would the EM/PE combo make the rotation pretty much the same as it was? Just looking at it, i kind of like those choices the best, especially if the cd on EM is being reduced in 5.2.
    Well you add in an extra button every minute, but more or less yes. Echo / UF makes the rotation more or less exactly the same also.

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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Defines View Post
    Well you add in an extra button every minute, but more or less yes. Echo / UF makes the rotation more or less exactly the same also.
    Actually in Cata, SS and LL were above MW5LB whereas now, MW5LB is above both SS and LL, making it more similar to Wrath, with the exception of UE being at the top above it.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    People have been against EB buffs because they don't like hardcasting, read the thread.
    Really? Feel free to point out all these "people" because I have not seen that at all. I see tons of hatred for the mechanic of hard casting, but I don't see anyone saying EB should never be buffed. Klatar is simply explaining why he think 5.2 EB is still weaker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Also what you mean tried?
    Meaning it was a horribly unpersuasive argument. What is most ironic is that in your world of optimal play styles, yours is even further down the line.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Once again, in a world where you EB is the strongest talent - you don't have to take it still. Just like you choose not to hardcast.

    If you don't want bother to play optimally anyway why should it matter that this talent gives 1k more dps? You're already dropping 500+ from the lack of hardcasting.

    It wouldn't be the top talent in every situation even if it were top averaged. The other talents would likely still be competitive. Fact is you can probably find people in similar gear to you (general you not particularly at klatar) using different talents and doing similar/better dps, somewhere. Even if you do frequently hit high ranks. I know that I was ranking most nights in my guild (private logs) even when I use using EB or PE, while everyone else was using UF. I noticed a dps increase on some fights using UF, but I don't enjoy that talent as much so unless the kill is that tight I won't take it. There will be people who own my dps in my gear too, in fact I remember the rank 1 a couple months ago now being in similar gear to what I had on elegon.
    What? Can you even read or understand what i am writing?

    Hardcasting LB is necessary to some extent. Additionally hardcasting EB is a choice that you have to do.

    Most simply don't like that play style so they don't.

    And as far as sims tell, hardcasting EB is a dps decrease because of that mechanic not fitting enhancers playstyle.

    EB is still the weakest talent by far. Without mechanical changes, it will stay the weakest talent forever.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 10:51 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    People have been against EB buffs because they don't like hardcasting, read the thread. Also what you mean tried?
    Completely non sense. Noone has been against EB buffs.

    All theys keep telling you is that it doesn't Enhancers playstyle so even if it was competitive, we wouldn't take it unless it's a real dps increase.

    The emchanical changes are necessary to make it competitive. In a few days, we will ahve simulation craft running (most chnages are already implemented, have to wait for the version going live). But EB was only a 4k dps increase, UF was 11k increase in 5.1.

    Nerfing some LB bonus damage and giving EB an agi procc won't make up that difference, not even close. I suspect Simcraft showing it still a 5k dps dcrease, which is a lot.
    Last edited by Klatar; 2013-01-05 at 11:04 AM.

  12. #52
    Stood in the Fire NPSlow's Avatar
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    I love Elemental Blast. It gives enhance the feeling I used to love of casting Lava Burst in Firelands, but it actually scales with maelstrom stacks so I'm not constantly trying to sneak a full cast in. It hits just as hard as Lava Burst used to as well, it's incredible fun.

    That being said, even before the 5.2 buffs it does competitive damage. My first night playing with the talent I nearly ranked on 25m Heroic Feng. Something along the lines of 110k dps.

    The casting-melee niche is a playstyle I'm so glad that Blizzard finally supports. They did a great job with this talent IMO.
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  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by NPSlow View Post
    I love Elemental Blast. It gives enhance the feeling I used to love of casting Lava Burst in Firelands, but it actually scales with maelstrom stacks so I'm not constantly trying to sneak a full cast in. It hits just as hard as Lava Burst used to as well, it's incredible fun.

    That being said, even before the 5.2 buffs it does competitive damage. My first night playing with the talent I nearly ranked on 25m Heroic Feng. Something along the lines of 110k dps.

    The casting-melee niche is a playstyle I'm so glad that Blizzard finally supports. They did a great job with this talent IMO.
    So a few people like it. It doesn'T solce the problem that you could easily do 5k dps more with an other talent.
    Last edited by Klatar; 2013-01-05 at 11:36 AM.

  14. #54
    Stood in the Fire NPSlow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    So a few people like it. It doesn'T solce the problem that you could easily do 5k dps more with an other talent.
    I don't believe that will be the case for much longer with the changes to the 90 talents.
    Plus I think a lot of the DPS loss people experience comes from unfamiliarity with the talent.

    Although I agree with you UE on cd and auto attacks are much 'easier' thankfully an option exists for people who prefer ease of use.
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  15. #55
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    EB will need to be a major upgrade for me to even consider taking it.
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  16. #56
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    I wish threads like this didn't always devolve into soapbox opinions about the playstyle and stayed focused on the theorycrafting.

    Does anyone have any mathematical data to suggest EB is even a possible contender before we post another 2 pages of whining about whether hardcasting or not "fits the playstyle?"

    From some napkin numbers and a lot of handwaving it strikes me that with the addition of agility EB is still inferior. The only change that I see is the fact that 25% of the time you get a buff that is possibly competitive to the buff you gain every time you cast UE with UF (which happens every 15 seconds like clockwork). As it stands, the buffs to our secondaries are not good enough to take the talent, so adding into the mix a buff that might be good enough 25% of the time does not impress me.

    And of course it does not scale, while UF does. LS will continue to hit harder as my gear improves and so will my LB (and thus the 20% bonus to it from the UF talent).

    And of course it introduces a hardcast mechanic into our rotation which has an RNG factor that will deprive us of white hits periodically, further reducing our damage.

    There's really no point in suggesting how EB could be improved to make it a choice on these forums which the devs don't read. We should keep the discussion to what we see in the patch notes, not our own personal fantasies about what the spell should be.
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by NPSlow View Post
    I don't believe that will be the case for much longer with the changes to the 90 talents.
    Plus I think a lot of the DPS loss people experience comes from unfamiliarity with the talent.

    Although I agree with you UE on cd and auto attacks are much 'easier' thankfully an option exists for people who prefer ease of use.
    Sims have no problem using it. It just strictly follows the priority and the priority is right.

    And for now, in my not BIS gear, it's 6k behind. UFnerf is a 600 dps loss, but the EB buff is really minor. You just get a man stat proc instead of a secondary stats procc, which equals about 1900 agi every 50 sec for 8 sec -> 8/ 50 * 1900 = 304 static agi -> 1200 dps gain.

    So in my actual gear, it would be 6000 - 600- 1200 = 4.2k dps ahead.

    Consider how poorly EB scales, it will be much more in BIS T14 gear and even more in T15.

    That#s just the estimated dps effect based on stat weights and so on.
    Last edited by Klatar; 2013-01-05 at 12:14 PM.

  18. #58
    Stood in the Fire NPSlow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TecPontificates View Post
    I wish threads like this didn't always devolve into soapbox opinions about the playstyle and stayed focused on the theorycrafting.

    Does anyone have any mathematical data to suggest EB is even a possible contender before we post another 2 pages of whining about whether hardcasting or not "fits the playstyle?"

    From some napkin numbers and a lot of handwaving it strikes me that with the addition of agility EB is still inferior. The only change that I see is the fact that 25% of the time you get a buff that is possibly competitive to the buff you gain every time you cast UE with UF (which happens every 15 seconds like clockwork). As it stands, the buffs to our secondaries are not good enough to take the talent, so adding into the mix a buff that might be good enough 25% of the time does not impress me.

    And of course it does not scale, while UF does. LS will continue to hit harder as my gear improves and so will my LB (and thus the 20% bonus to it from the UF talent).

    And of course it introduces a hardcast mechanic into our rotation which has an RNG factor that will deprive us of white hits periodically, further reducing our damage.

    There's really no point in suggesting how EB could be improved to make it a choice on these forums which the devs don't read. We should keep the discussion to what we see in the patch notes, not our own personal fantasies about what the spell should be.
    I must have missed the part where a Nature damage spell won't scale with my gear.

    I also disagree with your opinions. If it's possible to rank on heroic 25 fights with the way the talent is now, how can you honestly believe nothing will change when it is buffed in conjunction with an Unleash Fury nerf? That's not personal fantasies, those are numbers.

    Edit - another person saying Elemental Blast doesn't scale with gear, I'm sure I must be missing something now. Also I'm getting the impression people forget the spell actually does damage in addition to the buffs it provides :^)
    Last edited by NPSlow; 2013-01-05 at 12:25 PM.
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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by NPSlow View Post
    I must have missed the part where a Nature damage spell won't scale with my gear.

    I also disagree with your opinions. If it's possible to rank on heroic 25 fights with the way the talent is now, how can you honestly believe nothing will change when it is buffed in conjunction with an Unleash Fury nerf? That's not personal fantasies, those are numbers.

    Edit - another person saying Elemental Blast doesn't scale with gear, I'm sure I must be missing something now. Also I'm getting the impression people forget the spell actually does damage in addition to the buffs it provides :^)
    The damage itself scales ofc, but the stat bonus will remain static even as our gear improves.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by TecPontificates View Post
    I wish threads like this didn't always devolve into soapbox opinions about the playstyle and stayed focused on the theorycrafting.

    Does anyone have any mathematical data to suggest EB is even a possible contender before we post another 2 pages of whining about whether hardcasting or not "fits the playstyle?"

    From some napkin numbers and a lot of handwaving it strikes me that with the addition of agility EB is still inferior. The only change that I see is the fact that 25% of the time you get a buff that is possibly competitive to the buff you gain every time you cast UE with UF (which happens every 15 seconds like clockwork). As it stands, the buffs to our secondaries are not good enough to take the talent, so adding into the mix a buff that might be good enough 25% of the time does not impress me.

    And of course it does not scale, while UF does. LS will continue to hit harder as my gear improves and so will my LB (and thus the 20% bonus to it from the UF talent).

    And of course it introduces a hardcast mechanic into our rotation which has an RNG factor that will deprive us of white hits periodically, further reducing our damage.

    There's really no point in suggesting how EB could be improved to make it a choice on these forums which the devs don't read. We should keep the discussion to what we see in the patch notes, not our own personal fantasies about what the spell should be.
    The thread didn't devolve into a soapbox about play styles, that's strictly what the OP asked for.

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