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  1. #21
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    I know that tanks can do more DPS, if we don't have to sit out of our melee range while were kiting. But what else beside lock/hunter and the healers are suitable for kiting without them loosing too much DPS doing it? I can choose from spriest, mage, maybe a boomy (dunno yet)?

    The switch running to walking was a good idea. But rogue should do more DPS... She is doing better then the rest of us. Will her spec change add more DPS?
    As for the difference in healing, w/o our resto (Cal) the HPS numbers wouldn't be so big. He is a very very very good healer who can do wonders even w/o mana ^^
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  2. #22
    Lock, hunter, mage, resto druid should all be able to kite well, we have our spriest kiting too. Switching to combat should give 10-20k more dps assuming she has the weapons for it.

  3. #23
    Having your DPS do pheroshitdebuff when you wipe to enrage is not optimal , just have 2 tanks - and make them do pheremons at the start one after another , then you can pass it off to a 2DPS+Healer(especially if you use 3 healers )And just keep rotating this ( You should also hero at the start). My work here is done /flies away.

  4. #24
    are you set on 2 healing or 3 healing?

    because i think it changes how you do it.

    with 3 healers, it's much much easier to have them all kite. and it leaves all your dps free to concentrate on maximising their damage. you can also have one, or both your tanks just go dps.

    i'm not sure about 2 healing, as we've never done it, but i can't imagine i'd be comfortable kiting as a healer. so even though you have an extra dps, you are likely wanting them to kite, so it's not as big of a gain as it appears.

    the rogue will do more dps as combat, yes. but she's already doing more than enough (unless you've leaving legs up for her and she's just sitting on them? even then, she's doing ok for mut spec)


    edit: not sure what the confusion is with kiting. you just follow the edge of the room. you can speed up or slow down, if you're gonna get hit with the cleave, or if you're leaving range. this is why i like healers as kiters, because they can just leave range and it's not a issue.
    Last edited by asharia; 2012-12-29 at 10:29 AM.

  5. #25
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    We will have to go with 2 healers. As 3 healing will most probably make us hit enrage. And if we don't fuck up much, their mana is not that big of an issue. When we raid again (doubt that it will happen before new year) we will try different people kiting and see how much better or worse we do. If 2 healing, 2 tanks+2 DPS kiting makes us hit enrage, we will try different people kiting as that is all we can do.

    And no, the legs are not up all the time. Rogue has to 489 daggers (the ones from MSV).

    Kiting is an issue since people a) take too sharp turns b) move to fast c) leave to much space between the pheromone pools. As it it bloody hard to stand in that cleave when boss is dancing around x_x
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnillon View Post
    We will have to go with 2 healers. As 3 healing will most probably make us hit enrage. And if we don't fuck up much, their mana is not that big of an issue. When we raid again (doubt that it will happen before new year) we will try different people kiting and see how much better or worse we do. If 2 healing, 2 tanks+2 DPS kiting makes us hit enrage, we will try different people kiting as that is all we can do.

    And no, the legs are not up all the time. Rogue has to 489 daggers (the ones from MSV).

    Kiting is an issue since people a) take too sharp turns b) move to fast c) leave to much space between the pheromone pools. As it it bloody hard to stand in that cleave when boss is dancing around x_x
    I've done it as a tank, dps and healer, both kiting and not kiting, few things to add:

    Sorry about what I said before, if you only have ONE melee then yeah your ranged are going to need to help on legs, at least a little. Fire mage is good for it, make sure they take scorch. Rogue should be doing far more than 100k if they were the only one focusing on the legs. As a feral I was seeing 120k-130k on the attempts where our ranged werent blowing up the legs. I had to repeat myself about 100 times "look you're killing the legs 4 seconds after I put my dots up, its wasting SO MUCH potential damage." I expressed the same concept to another guild I ran with as a pug and they killed it for the first time on the next attempt. Anyway, the point is your group needs to get a feel for how much damage needs to be done - how much they need to help. If your ranged notice a leg going down more slowly than normal then sure, toss something at it. Ideally, your melee should communicate when they need help and when they don't. With some cooldowns, a melee can probably take a leg down solo in plenty of time.

    It sounds like you're having more issues right now with kiting and the cleave. Working on dps optimization (to some extent) comes after the fight has been stabilized. As for kiting, one thing I've noticed is that there is no reason to bring the pheromones all the way into the corners. Making an oval around the room is a bit easier on dps as well as tanks for the cleave. Plus, if your healers arent kiting, it reduces range issues for healing the kiter.

    Its actually kind of easy to catch the cleave as a tank, garalon does bug out and spin around sometimes, but aside from that its pretty predicatable. What often catches people is if he does a slam, he doesnt turn while he's slaming so if the kiter moves during that time, garalon will then face straight towards where the kiter is after the slam. The trick, as a tank, is to stay between garalon and the kiter, which is not always directly in front of him.

    I'm pretty confident you're going to need to 2 heal with that dps. Even 2 healing, you can't haev anyone doing 40k.. it sucks, ret with bad gear is pretty bad, plus playing an offspec im sure he's not that familiar with.. but at 40k you're better off bringing a pug.

    As you say, tanks definitely can do more dps. What we generally do is let the higher dps tank (our DK) stay in range of the boss the whole time, while our lower dps tank stays back.

  7. #27
    The warlock could easily kite while DPS'ing the boss and maintain DPS as well as the Hunter. It's all about optimizing that DPS on those legs and pushing your raid DPS on the boss and you'll kill it.

    Kiting is the easiest part, you need to tell your kiters "Your sole job is to move backwards dropping the pheremones, just stay at the edge of the cleeve and don't get hit by it."

    That's kiting 101. Then just ask them what their stacks are at every now and then and to switch it off. Healers are really pro at making these calls (if you have good healers) Their job is to watch Debuffs and make those calls on switching if the next in line's debuff has fallen off. Once that kiting is good, it's all about refining your DPS and optimizing it. The kiters will become more accustomed to kiting and hitting. If they have trouble targeting the boss while moving just tell them to setup a /focus on Garalon.

    Remind you, these are all the small things that you can add in. When the boss nears 20% health, tell everyone to relax and kill the boss. Sometimes my raiders start to get excited and over complicate things as it comes to the end and I just shout out to relax and kill it and refresh what the next mechanic is coming up next.

  8. #28
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    Someone one shot this bug for us "k thnx bye".

    But on general note this insect is beginning to annoy me more and more.

    We started the evening out 2 healing. 1 healer, 3 DPS kiting. Kiters were lock, hunter, resto druid, balance druid. We ended up switching hunter for shadow priest on some tries as the hunter failed a bit on taking the pheromones (as he either got hit by the cleave or manage to stand in a pheromone trail when the crush happened).

    2 healing as someone said leaves no rooms for any mistakes... We had shaman/druid healing, one druid in her OS DPSing. Prot tried retri, tanking gear, he didn't live that much (but probably due to healers not being prepared for the damage). Our OS balance said that she finds it very hard to kite and keep DPSing as she is very unfamiliar with balance in general. So is the other resto. They are not comfortable playing balance (yet). And they are the only healers that can kite in their OS, as it is range.

    Then due to popular demand from the raid we tried 3 healing. But managed to prove that 470k raid DPS is far from enough to beat the enrage. So we went back to 2 healing.

    By the end of the evening the ranged had finally started moving as a group not run around like I don't know what. So the 2 healing became easier. But still was not enough as people started to make silly mistakes.

    But DPS compared to our try on previous week was worse, or so I think at least.

    In every possible way I watch my raiders and see that there is just no chance of getting a better set of kiters. The DPS this time seemed worse as the lock was doing worse DPS when kiting than he did on previous time when he was kiting....
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/nst0k142hicbk8vb/
    Can lock, priest (who will be the kiters) push out more while kiting? Any tips for them? Or even for the balance druids?

    Or should we just drop Garalon after this week, if we don't get a kill and go see heroics in MSV?

    That is all the raiders we have to choose from (but since some can't raid on certain days it is not easy) and until we manage to recruit more, this is what we are stuck with.
    Guardian/feral druid - both specs decently geared
    prot/retri pala - blue mainhander for retri, said he won't see point DPSing with a blue weapon
    resto/balance druid - cannot attend on some days
    resto balance druid
    resto/ench shaman
    holy/retri pala - retri spec is not decent - available once in a while
    mistweaver/windwalker monk
    retri/holy pala - retri spec is weaker than holy as we made him go MS retri
    lock
    priest
    hunter
    rogue
    mage - not available on most days
    balance druid - available once in a while
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished <- RECRUITING for WoD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  9. #29
    I will no doubt get tons of ridicule for this but we 6 dps and 4 heal it :P

    I fail to see the benefit of tanks on this fight, they soak damage but they never gain enough vengeance to do dps "that matters" in my eyes. Take your 7th try where you wiped to enrage 3 healing it and consider the following changes:

    Make both the prot pala and the feral go dps. Add in a healer.
    - The prot pala will soak, ideally along with a holy pala or the resto shammy. The now-ret pala can then work on legs that are convenient to him while soaking. If the holy pala soaks with him then his job is to beacon up himself and heal the ret or vice versa. The prot pala that went ret should increase his damage by at least 40k (its 27k now, pew-pewing legs helps vastly because of the buff)
    - The biggest gain should be from the feral. Our feral goes on the back legs / boss when none are up. He gets to work on dps exclusively and melee get the buff. If hes half geared / clued in he will get 100k dps.

    The net equation to me looks like this for your raid group.
    - Damage +40k from the pala, +60k from the feral if they both go dps (it may take them a while to get used to the new roles)
    - -30k from whatever boomie now gets to heal.
    Thats a net gain of 70k raid dps.

    I'm unsure as to how this affects who will kite in your group and that will obviously play a role. I'd add more healers to the kiter rotation since you have 4 in the group. I'd also make one of them HoTW dps the living shit out of a leg on the pull, whichever one you feel is most suited to this.

    I know its not conventional but we fucked around with all the other combos and this was just our way to cheese it. We always had derps with people out of range of healers or bad transitions. We one shot it when we did this. Do the napkin math and see how it works for you.

    Good luck! The next boss is trivial if you get past garalon.

  10. #30
    You don't boomies kiting, their dps will suck big time. Hunters and Locks are the best 2 dps to kite with and you have 1 of each, so just make them kite.

    If 3 healing, make the resto druid one of the kiters as they can do it easily enough, though in that case, you'll prolly need a plate dps or holy pally to soak the cleaves with 1 tank.

    That last post about 6dps and 4 heals sounds really interesting.

  11. #31
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    How can a resto shaman soak? And how can rogues soak? Which skills or CD should they use.

    As we did MSV full clear + 2 boss in Hof in 3 hours with several fuckups, so we can be on Garalon for the rest of the week ^^. Your idea Deja sounds very tempting to try out as we have really nothing to loose. Only 2 gain.

    If all goes well I can choose from (ms/os)
    guardian/feral
    prot/retri
    ww/mw
    resto/balance
    resto/ench
    rogue
    resto/balance
    hunter
    retri/holy - has too little healthpool in retri (raid buffed around 374k)
    lock
    priest

    I would actually have the priest and lock kiting. If hunter gets his stuff together and pays attention him as well. If I go 3 healers, I can have one healer kiting as well.

    But again thanks for the ideas. Lot of different things to try out.
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished <- RECRUITING for WoD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  12. #32
    I'm not sure what shammies would need to do to soak, I did read some do it though so I'll leave you to search it :P

    Holy palas are surprisingly good at soaking since they have shields. Their base armor will reduce dmg by 50% minimum since its physical damage. I personally do it using a stam flask since mana isn't too much of an issue and I tank the fights before and after that one. You can also glyph divine guardian to reduce physical dmg taken by a further 20% for 10? sec every min which if you time it right is 2 swipes per minute. I actually take less dmg as a holy pala than our ret does due to the shield.

    Peronally I'd go swipe soakers as retri (the ms prot guy) / holy pala (the one with too little HP and a stam flask :P)
    feral and rogue on legs in weakspot for dmg buff, melee shine on this fight
    lock & priest & hunter
    pick 3 more healers - you know your team best and I know nothing about monks

    I really think losing 2 "tanks" for true melee dps classes will improve your overall raid dps and the extra damage taken is more than compensated for by the fact you have an extra healer in there.

    Quick edit. If your hpala takes clemency he can BoP himself 2x and bubble once in the fight. 3 free crushes!

  13. #33
    2 heal it, no tanks, plate dps takes swipes, boss dies before healers are oom. Easy.

  14. #34

  15. #35
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    2 heal is the easiest way to go, but 2 healing leaves no room for error. If people fuck up pheromones or do something else they are not suppose to, then 2 healers just don't cut it. Not until we've found the strategy for us to kill him.

    The retri with very low health goes for Stamina flask anyway if needed (the best motivation ever for raid DPS - get Blade Lord down to 20% before 5th stack of intensify, or else the paladin will be oneshotted with full health ^^ by Unseen Strike), so does anyone else who is gearing up.

    Thanks for the advice for the hpala. I know that he will make good use of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  16. #36
    we got him yesterday after 5-6 tries after constantly wiping at 10%. With 3 heals, have atleast 1 tank go dps specc. we had a warrior soaking along with our guardian druid whose dps was really low (his gear is bad). Also as long as yr meele or maale+1 ranged can kill leg b4 next one spawns, have everyone else concentrate on body. I had to constantly remind ranged to focus boss as i (dk) and ret pally were able to kill legs together fast anyways. also the basics.. pre pot + pot again later.
    your tanks can carry phermones too. we had 2 healers + our guardian and dps warrior carry phermones to max dps.

  17. #37
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    After 3 bloody hours of wiping, on our very-very-very last go of the evening, we killed him. Just when Berserk hit zero.

    3 healers, 7 DPS ^^
    Hpala/retri soaking
    lock/hunter/priest/rdruid kiting
    feral/rogue/ww as melee
    rshaman healing as well

    Average rdps according to recount 537k. No logs (yet) uploaded (as I didn't log this time).

    Now we know that we can do it and how we can do it, just a matter of perfecting it and maybe teaching few new people as well in progress.

    Thanks for the tips all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  18. #38
    High Overlord IBroughtGuns's Avatar
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    This threads gonna help alot, starting garalon tonight and have some good ideas now. Thanks guys!
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  19. #39
    Grats!

    If you can master ambershaper the rest of t14 should be easy by comparison. Good luck with the rest of the progress.

    I'd advise extending the lockout if you need to if you aren't sure you can reliably kill garalon. If you can get into toes its almost free loot by comparison, esp elite protectors and more gear never hurts.

  20. #40
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    I'd advise extending the lockout if you need to if you aren't sure you can reliably kill garalon.
    ^This is an awesome idea. Actually didn't think of that. As Garalon, at least not yet for us, is not doable with any setup.
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished <- RECRUITING for WoD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


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