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  1. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duster505 View Post
    No we would not. TBC had over 11 milion subs. It did not have LFR - and it did not have normals and heroics. and it did not have 10 and 25 mans doing the same content.

    As a player that played ever raid content in the game - I have no interest to bother now that LFR is in. Even with 1 special heroic boss. I rather have a good solid learning and gear curve that gives players reason to improve. WOW lost that as early as WOTLK and the subs started falling soon after.
    I disagree about TBC. I was there too, and I remember getting stuck farming Karazhan all expansion until my eyes bled, losing raiders left, right and centre to a combination of "better" guilds and simple fatigue. If no content ever becomes obsolete, there's no feeling of progress, only the knowledge that you're never going to free from that damn place. I preferred Wrath--it was a hell of a lot easier to get a new player or alt raid-ready, and it didn't involve wasting entire weeks farming older raid tiers.

    Edit:

    Specially now when less than 1% of the entire playerbase has even bothered with finishing the encounters on normal mode.
    If only 1% of the playerbase bothers with raiding beyond Easy mode, then is there really any need for raiding at all?

    As long as the learning curve and the gear curve is casual friendly then there is zero reason and just gamebreaking to see almost every player of the game see ALL the content in LFR when new raids are out.
    It's hardly game-breaking. It doesn't break MY game, so why does it break yours?
    Last edited by Blayze; 2012-12-27 at 09:28 PM.
    It became clear that it wasn’t realistic to try to get the audience back to being more hardcore, as it had been in the past. -- Tom Chilton

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by hakujinbakasama View Post
    Your comment only goes to show one of the growing problems with trying to discuss things with people on the internet let alone with players of WoW in general.

    It's delusional to assume that the majority of players who are still subscribed are those who loved all of those aspects from those days. It's much more likely that 70% of the player base came in under the new features and thus would leave if the old ones came about. That's how markets in videogames work. This is actually the issue that is facing the video game industry completely. The mass of original subscribers are more likely to be in the minority and thus not a good business move to revert to for Blizzard. It would probably make for a better game in theory but the application would be appalling.

    It's much more beneficial to come up with goals to keep everyone playing and happy and to work collectively to see that happen rather than alienating large portions of the playerbase. However, that requires both humans to work together and for them to work together via the internet. That's unlikely.
    Im sorry but if the goal is to let every moron see the raid content in first or second week in LFR - then you have also taken away pretty much every reason for those same ppl to play the game for the next 6 months till the next tier. There are multiple ways how to improve the item progression lvl (like adding new dungeons every month) so that ppl that are not doing it hardcore can do it in that 4-5 month period before the next one. Just because making 3 copies of the same raid is the cheapest way does not in any way mean its the best way to retain subs.

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by Brazorf View Post
    poor Blizzard, can't win in any way.
    Uh yeah they can.

    Get rid of shitty pokemon, shitty farmville, shitty scenarios and get back to making more dungeons and lore.

    Problem solved.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Blayze View Post
    I disagree about TBC. I was there too, and I remember getting stuck farming Karazhan all expansion until my eyes bled, losing raiders left, right and centre to a combination of "better" guilds and simple fatigue. If no content ever becomes obsolete, there's no feeling of progress, only the knowledge that you're never going to free from that damn place. I preferred Wrath--it was a hell of a lot easier to get a new player or alt raid-ready, and it didn't involve wasting entire weeks farming older raid tiers.
    Ye - I can accept WOTLK format... as long as we dont have LFR to totally destroy the real feel of progression and story in the game. LFR is just horrendously bad way to retain subs. It gives players the feeling that they have done it all - and when this happens few weeks into new raid tier -then its doing more bad than good.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Luftmangle View Post
    Uh yeah they can.

    Get rid of shitty pokemon, shitty farmville, shitty scenarios and get back to making more dungeons and lore.

    Problem solved.
    Alot of people enjoy Pet Battles though.

  6. #426
    TBC was a pretty different story with 15 (fifteen!) dungeons at launch, then 16th added very late in the expac. Now we have 9 heroic dungeons, some of them are revamps of old and well known 5mans.

    But I kinda like this approach, no new 5mans mean no free gear for people to completely skip tier 14 when 15 is out. Why would anyone run Firelands when HOT 5mans were giving you same 378 gear with much less effort and single queue button? Sure there will be raid finder gear but:
    1) RF comes out later
    2) RF gear ilvl wont be so high that it will outclass normal upgraded / heroic T14 gear
    3) RF has really shitty drop rate, after seven TES LFR clears I'm yet to see an item from it

    Only bad thing coming out of this - players that resub or just start out will have VERY hard time to find a guild for progression because they will all demand 490-500 ilvl even for tier 14 raids, let alone tier 15. Pugs on my server already demand 485-490.

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelln12 View Post
    Alot of people enjoy Pet Battles though.
    But they have nothing to do with trinity based progression system. Its that extra that ppl can and probably would do if they were not spending most of their time beeing forced into doing other stuff if they want to progress further than LFR difficulty of raid content.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    New Dungeons are one of the few PvE aspects I've always been looking forward to. Yes it's mostly 1-2 per patch but running them and getting the achievments was usually something I enjoyed. Now they don't even bother to do that anymore, they're getting neglected in favour of their crappy scenarios whom I in all honesty despise since I have to dps instead of heal.
    What would be the point of putting in a new dungeon when theirs no new gear tier? Dungeons in the past have helped with getting to the next tier of gear for players who come into the game and are behind in content. Now blizz could introduce new dailys with new sets of gear but seeing how everyone hates the amount of dailys they have been doing i dont see blizz adding 3 or 4 factions in 5.2 but more like 1 or 2.

    You need to look at 5.1 as an extension of 5.0, In a sense its a way keeping content coming in without actual progression. Most ppl who Raid dont need to do the new dailys because they already have the gear, while others see those new dailies as a way to PvP.

  9. #429
    Mechagnome esoterickk's Avatar
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    Tiered dungeons is bad and it becomes boring and repetitive very quickly.

    Especially with a large raid coming in, keeping the progression path from dungeons -> raids -> higher tier raids is a better choice than new dungeons -> high tier raids and skip all other content.

    For everything else, there's valor points.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Esubane View Post
    TBC was a pretty different story with 15 (fifteen!) dungeons at launch, then 16th added very late in the expac. Now we have 9 heroic dungeons, some of them are revamps of old and well known 5mans.

    But I kinda like this approach, no new 5mans mean no free gear for people to completely skip tier 14 when 15 is out. Why would anyone run Firelands when HOT 5mans were giving you same 378 gear with much less effort and single queue button? Sure there will be raid finder gear but:
    1) RF comes out later
    2) RF gear ilvl wont be so high that it will outclass normal upgraded / heroic T14 gear
    3) RF has really shitty drop rate, after seven TES LFR clears I'm yet to see an item from it

    Only bad thing coming out of this - players that resub or just start out will have VERY hard time to find a guild for progression because they will all demand 490-500 ilvl even for tier 14 raids, let alone tier 15. Pugs on my server already demand 485-490.

    I can promise you that 1 new dungeon per month in WOW would keep more players paying their subs than allowing them to do LFR in first 2-4 weeks of new raid tier. BLizzard has just desided to go for a very bad item progression model in the last 3 expansions instead of focusing on really good content to keep ppl interested. The LFR is the last straw cause ppl have no real reason to bother with playing the game after they have seen all the raid content. And those players will again feel entitled to do the next LFR tier in utterly crappy gear cause they unsubed after first month of T14.

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Duster505 View Post
    Im sorry but if the goal is to let every moron see the raid content in first or second week in LFR - then you have also taken away pretty much every reason for those same ppl to play the game for the next 6 months till the next tier. There are multiple ways how to improve the item progression lvl (like adding new dungeons every month) so that ppl that are not doing it hardcore can do it in that 4-5 month period before the next one. Just because making 3 copies of the same raid is the cheapest way does not in any way mean its the best way to retain subs.
    I'm not really disagreeing with you. I'm merely trying to establish that 1 choice doesn't make everything better both for the player base and or Blizzard's paychecks.

    I've made a lot of hostile posts of how there is a ton of content in the game that Blizzard only pays attention to when people attack them for having so little end game content. At the same time, Blizzard also does nothing about making sure that content is evenly available and or constantly updated. Fuck all, the adding of pets to old raid bosses was a decent idea even if it was a few years too late, but ruining the ability for all classes to have an equal go at it was pretty fucking stupid in my opinion.

    What I'm getting at is that there is a lot complexity to the current issue and what's probably a better fix is updating the loot system and creating more in game out of raid/bg solutions to keep people playing.

    I never wanted an LFR system after I saw how much LFD destroyed an entire aspect of this game.

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek Daniels View Post
    What would be the point of putting in a new dungeon when theirs no new gear tier? Dungeons in the past have helped with getting to the next tier of gear for players who come into the game and are behind in content. Now blizz could introduce new dailys with new sets of gear but seeing how everyone hates the amount of dailys they have been doing i dont see blizz adding 3 or 4 factions in 5.2 but more like 1 or 2.

    You need to look at 5.1 as an extension of 5.0, In a sense its a way keeping content coming in without actual progression. Most ppl who Raid dont need to do the new dailys because they already have the gear, while others see those new dailies as a way to PvP.
    The point of new dungeon would to get new gear into the game. Higher item lvl gear that at the same time would lower the need to nerf every encounter 2-3 months after new tier is added. Thats why 1 new dungeon per month would solve the real issue of this game. It would keep ppl interested in playing (new challengemodes as well) and push them towards becoming better players to do the raid content.

    Moving the goal posts on top of your toes like LFR is doing does not help the game in any way. It just makes it worse than ever.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 09:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by hakujinbakasama View Post
    I'm not really disagreeing with you. I'm merely trying to establish that 1 choice doesn't make everything better both for the player base and or Blizzard's paychecks.

    I've made a lot of hostile posts of how there is a ton of content in the game that Blizzard only pays attention to when people attack them for having so little end game content. At the same time, Blizzard also does nothing about making sure that content is evenly available and or constantly updated. Fuck all, the adding of pets to old raid bosses was a decent idea even if it was a few years too late, but ruining the ability for all classes to have an equal go at it was pretty fucking stupid in my opinion.

    What I'm getting at is that there is a lot complexity to the current issue and what's probably a better fix is updating the loot system and creating more in game out of raid/bg solutions to keep people playing.

    I never wanted an LFR system after I saw how much LFD destroyed an entire aspect of this game.
    I find LFD to be acceptable IF there were new dungeons coming in regularly. Change those dam scenarios into dungeons and I would be happy. The big issue with the game atm is that Blizzard is trying to counter GW2 by providing stuff for DPS players to do (none holy trinity content). At the same time those players that like to be the other 2 trinity roles (tank and healer) are left totally stranded in the game. By having a solid source of 5 man content coming with every content patch - those players would maybe not be leaving the game now. Im out. I loved playing a multirole tank and healer and do dungeons - even in LFD. At least that involves teamwork and abit of social interaction. Daily quests dont do that.. and neither do scenarios to any degree to what dungeons can do with trinity roles.

    The thing is - the current item progression system in WOW is broken. It has been broken for many years since Blizzard has been nerfing raiding content by 30% to allow ppl to do it. They say that new ilvl upgrade system will fix that.. but that system also destroyes the viability of multirole classes in the game. They loose much much more than they gain.

    The focus of a sub based MMO game should NOT be about sending out content every 6 months. It should be about offering new content every month - like one new dungeon with new and interesting encounters that would at the same time raise the ilvl of every character abit to make them more viable doing raids.
    Last edited by Duster505; 2012-12-27 at 09:57 PM.

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Duster505 View Post
    Ye - I can accept WOTLK format... as long as we dont have LFR to totally destroy the real feel of progression and story in the game. LFR is just horrendously bad way to retain subs. It gives players the feeling that they have done it all - and when this happens few weeks into new raid tier -then its doing more bad than good.
    If you have time to get sick of LFR in the first two weeks of a raid tier, maybe you should try normal/heroic mode raids?

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraxis View Post
    I wasn't aware that when you specced heals they took away every damage dealing ability you had.
    You are kidding right? Unless you are an attonement priest or some shit like that, healers do almost no damage.

    You havent played a max level healer in MoP, right?

    You have very little damaging abilities, all doing very little damage.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 06:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dravelar View Post
    You are implying that they won't have any other way of getting gear in 5.2,which we don't know yet.In fact, i think complains like this should only be made when we know completely what is going to happen in the patch.Otherwise,what anyone says today might be pointless tomorrow
    We already know what we will get (new dailies, scenarios and raid), and waiting untill the patch is done means its already too late.

  15. #435
    Old God Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleric View Post
    If you have time to get sick of LFR in the first two weeks of a raid tier, maybe you should try normal/heroic mode raids?
    The same content. I too am sick of the raids right now, and the normal and heroic versions might be harder, but it's still the same raiid, the same location, the same boss.

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Duster505 View Post
    I find LFD to be acceptable IF there were new dungeons coming in regularly. Change those dam scenarios into dungeons and I would be happy. The big issue with the game atm is that Blizzard is trying to counter GW2 by providing stuff for DPS players to do (none holy trinity content). At the same time those players that like to be the other 2 trinity roles (tank and healer) are left totally stranded in the game. By having a solid source of 5 man content coming with every content patch - those players would maybe not be leaving the game now. Im out. I loved playing a multirole tank and healer and do dungeons - even in LFD. At least that involves teamwork and abit of social interaction. Daily quests dont do that.. and neither does scenarios to any degree to what dungeons can do with trinity roles.
    I'm mixed about your assessment. DPS players have had it rough since forever so the option for them to do more is nice. The complaint that was always raised to a DPS warrior was to stfu and roll a tank for gear so I'm not sure why it's all the sudden a travesty to ask the same out of the healers and tanks. Scenarios only offer 10 minutes of actual game play most of the time so it's really an uneven comparison to be had in the first place.

    The main problem, when it all comes down to it, is the lack of motivation to keep playing. Which is something I agree with. Right now, the complaint seems to be targeting the fact that people who used LFR since the other choice sucks or isn't really viable for them are about to get kicked in the nuts. Something I've always had a problem with in WoW.

    At the end of the day, there isn't much credibility to any argument as to why gear progression HAS to be done the way it is currently and WHY limiting other options is so fucking perfect for the game.... claims the attitude by Blizzard. They sputter some bullshit, release actual content and subs go up. They continue to hinder progress and options, the new content is explored and subs go down until enough more content is added.

    I honestly believe this has more to do with the way they allow the content to be experienced rather than the actual "lack" of content.

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkbark View Post
    LFR?!?!

    I honestly think they're going to increase the chances for loot from the T14 LFRs when T15 comes out - turning it into a catch-up mechanism like you said.
    Even with higher drop rates, a feature with a weekly lockdown and only a few attempts (6 at start) is not going to be usefull as a catch up mechanism.

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Even with higher drop rates, a feature with a weekly lockdown and only a few attempts (6 at start) is not going to be usefull as a catch up mechanism.
    People also fail to understand the issue of compounding with the LFR when it does come time to use it as a catchup mechanism.

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by DetectiveJohnKimble View Post
    You've constantly just spouted crap that has no basis in reality.

    Catch up mechanisms: JP (t14 VP gear will drop to JP, like has been the case since Wotlk), VP/dailies (new faction rewards), t14 LFR, t15 LFR, crafted 496 gear, 3 world bosses with a high respawn timer, t14 raids (which may possibly be nerfed based on how well pugs are fairing there in 5.2, even after pugs have acquired their full 489-496 sets from JP/world bosses).

    BC and Wotlk through 3.2 did just fine without adding in new dungeons. BC had a lot of dungeons, but that's irrelevant to the 'catch up mechanism' point' because people who wanted to 'catch up' on gear only ran several of them, and they never added new ones that gave increasing rewards (just the badge reward system, which, again, only resulted in several dungeons being run per day).

    Yes, in this new system you can't just cap out on raid-worthy gear in one day. That is probably an intentional design- people won't run ZG/ZA 15 times a day and then quit within a week because of dungeon burnout.

    Even if they required JP, valor gear will still ask for reputation (and we dont even know if they will stop asking for VP), i know that Blizzard intends to replace catch up mechanism with dailies, its what i have been telling, they are pidgeonholing us in the daily system we were told it was optional, crafted 496 gear is only 2 items and they are very expensive, respawn timer of world bosses is irrelevant since you can only loot them once a week, you dont know if t14 raids will be nerfed and even if they are, again, weekly lockout and you need people actually wanting to go there (and we are back to the same problem we had in TBC that motivated catch up mechanisms in the first place).

    BC did not worked fine, BC worked so bad that Blizzard had to put ZA, new dungeon and badges, all 3 things as catch up mechanism because the community was easting itself by stealing raiders.

    3.2 didnt worked that fine for new players either, which motivated the adding of dungeons in the next two content patches.

    You are the one sputing crap here.

  20. #440
    People REALLLLLY need to stop using TBC lack of dungeons as an example.

    If there were ANYWHERE NEAR as many dungeons in Mists as there were in TBC, no one would be complaining. There's double the amount of dungeons in BC as there is in Mists, and 3 of the Mists ones are rehashes.

    If there were double the mists heroics, people wouldn't be complaining, plain and simple. As then, we have a chance to have some variety. Not have the same dungeon every 2-3 runs.

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