No new dungeons, really Blizzard?

[hakujinbakasama]

Yes you have a right to disagree with decisions of a company making a product you buy, you have the right to tell them about your concern. You even have the right to have a small pointless impotent hissy fit about it to random people if you so desire but keep in mind you are presenting yourself to people as a complete fucking brat. Gaining fuck all sympathy for your cause.

I think some but not all people have a general good idea and reason at times. What would be nice is if people could, oh I don't know, TRY to have real conversations, come up with ideas, and then as a group take it to the mothership and actually WORK together to try and get blizzards attention in a positive way.

I think, somewhere deep down inside, people have that intention at times, but always fail the moment they post it up to the internet.

[Eats Compost]

I've still not really seen much in the way of complaints as to why bringing back the badge system isn't an option then?
It allows for new dungeons with drops that don't completely level the use of previous, and it allows for LFR and Previous raid content to still have a use.

Still not seeing the downside to this.

Badge system? As in BC badges? Can you be a bit more specific about how this would work in, say, a hypothetical patch with 2 new dungeons?

[shokter]

I've still not really seen much in the way of complaints as to why bringing back the badge system isn't an option then?
It allows for new dungeons with drops that don't completely level the use of previous, and it allows for LFR and Previous raid content to still have a use.

Still not seeing the downside to this.

There is a badge system...though it has been revamped and tied to faction QMs (as I'm sure you know). Personally I think that's fine...lots of other people don't.

[hakujinbakasama]

No we would not. TBC had over 11 milion subs. It did not have LFR - and it did not have normals and heroics. and it did not have 10 and 25 mans doing the same content.

As a player that played ever raid content in the game - I have no interest to bother now that LFR is in. Even with 1 special heroic boss. I rather have a good solid learning and gear curve that gives players reason to improve. WOW lost that as early as WOTLK and the subs started falling soon after.

Your comment only goes to show one of the growing problems with trying to discuss things with people on the internet let alone with players of WoW in general.

It's delusional to assume that the majority of players who are still subscribed are those who loved all of those aspects from those days. It's much more likely that 70% of the player base came in under the new features and thus would leave if the old ones came about. That's how markets in videogames work. This is actually the issue that is facing the video game industry completely. The mass of original subscribers are more likely to be in the minority and thus not a good business move to revert to for Blizzard. It would probably make for a better game in theory but the application would be appalling.

It's much more beneficial to come up with goals to keep everyone playing and happy and to work collectively to see that happen rather than alienating large portions of the playerbase. However, that requires both humans to work together and for them to work together via the internet. That's unlikely.

[Duster505]

Most players don't care about challenge anyway, because most players are far more casual than us who visit forums to talk about the game. Allowing them to play raids on Easy in no way invalidates Normal or Hard difficulty except in the minds of a few.

Yes it does. They should have minimum amount of skills to see the content. Its not like its hard to check few abilities of bosses. As long as the learning curve and the gear curve is casual friendly then there is zero reason and just gamebreaking to see almost every player of the game see ALL the content in LFR when new raids are out. Specially now when less than 1% of the entire playerbase has even bothered with finishing the encounters on normal mode.

[hakujinbakasama]

Badge system? As in BC badges? Can you be a bit more specific about how this would work in, say, a hypothetical patch with 2 new dungeons?

I actually thought that the system going from TBC into Wrath and ending with Wrath was only needing slight improvements. Badge/Token systems are actually not that horrible compared to what we have now. The issue during Wrath is that they completely negated entire Tiers by downgrading everything, and while that might be fun for some it was also really negative for others as it removed a lot of content from being done.

If anything, that's the system I think should have been built upon for Cata instead of being completely done away with for a system which is still having problems 2 years later.

My outline isn't perfect and welcome to tweaks but I would lay out

Dungeons/Heroics give JP
Tier raiding gives Tier specific Tokens
Vendors are created to help with filler gear or trade crafted items as it was in Cata.

Gear is compiled so that you have continual growth in ilvl requiring at least some investment into each Tier of content, but not to the point where either the content is completely shippable as it was in Wrath or too much of a grind as it was in TBC. (again, noting that a lot has changed since TBC and the start of Wrath were having many characters at max level is wayyyyyy more common even for the average player)

[Blayze]

No we would not. TBC had over 11 milion subs. It did not have LFR - and it did not have normals and heroics. and it did not have 10 and 25 mans doing the same content.

As a player that played ever raid content in the game - I have no interest to bother now that LFR is in. Even with 1 special heroic boss. I rather have a good solid learning and gear curve that gives players reason to improve. WOW lost that as early as WOTLK and the subs started falling soon after.

I disagree about TBC. I was there too, and I remember getting stuck farming Karazhan all expansion until my eyes bled, losing raiders left, right and centre to a combination of "better" guilds and simple fatigue. If no content ever becomes obsolete, there's no feeling of progress, only the knowledge that you're never going to free from that damn place. I preferred Wrath--it was a hell of a lot easier to get a new player or alt raid-ready, and it didn't involve wasting entire weeks farming older raid tiers.

Edit:

Specially now when less than 1% of the entire playerbase has even bothered with finishing the encounters on normal mode.

If only 1% of the playerbase bothers with raiding beyond Easy mode, then is there really any need for raiding at all?

As long as the learning curve and the gear curve is casual friendly then there is zero reason and just gamebreaking to see almost every player of the game see ALL the content in LFR when new raids are out.

It's hardly game-breaking. It doesn't break MY game, so why does it break yours?

[Duster505]

Your comment only goes to show one of the growing problems with trying to discuss things with people on the internet let alone with players of WoW in general.

It's delusional to assume that the majority of players who are still subscribed are those who loved all of those aspects from those days. It's much more likely that 70% of the player base came in under the new features and thus would leave if the old ones came about. That's how markets in videogames work. This is actually the issue that is facing the video game industry completely. The mass of original subscribers are more likely to be in the minority and thus not a good business move to revert to for Blizzard. It would probably make for a better game in theory but the application would be appalling.

It's much more beneficial to come up with goals to keep everyone playing and happy and to work collectively to see that happen rather than alienating large portions of the playerbase. However, that requires both humans to work together and for them to work together via the internet. That's unlikely.

Im sorry but if the goal is to let every moron see the raid content in first or second week in LFR - then you have also taken away pretty much every reason for those same ppl to play the game for the next 6 months till the next tier. There are multiple ways how to improve the item progression lvl (like adding new dungeons every month) so that ppl that are not doing it hardcore can do it in that 4-5 month period before the next one. Just because making 3 copies of the same raid is the cheapest way does not in any way mean its the best way to retain subs.

[Super Friendly Kitty Cat]

poor Blizzard, can't win in any way.

Uh yeah they can.

Get rid of shitty pokemon, shitty farmville, shitty scenarios and get back to making more dungeons and lore.

Problem solved.

[Duster505]

I disagree about TBC. I was there too, and I remember getting stuck farming Karazhan all expansion until my eyes bled, losing raiders left, right and centre to a combination of "better" guilds and simple fatigue. If no content ever becomes obsolete, there's no feeling of progress, only the knowledge that you're never going to free from that damn place. I preferred Wrath--it was a hell of a lot easier to get a new player or alt raid-ready, and it didn't involve wasting entire weeks farming older raid tiers.

Ye - I can accept WOTLK format... as long as we dont have LFR to totally destroy the real feel of progression and story in the game. LFR is just horrendously bad way to retain subs. It gives players the feeling that they have done it all - and when this happens few weeks into new raid tier -then its doing more bad than good.

[Kelln12]

Uh yeah they can.

Get rid of shitty pokemon, shitty farmville, shitty scenarios and get back to making more dungeons and lore.

Problem solved.

Alot of people enjoy Pet Battles though.

[Deleted]

TBC was a pretty different story with 15 (fifteen!) dungeons at launch, then 16th added very late in the expac. Now we have 9 heroic dungeons, some of them are revamps of old and well known 5mans.

But I kinda like this approach, no new 5mans mean no free gear for people to completely skip tier 14 when 15 is out. Why would anyone run Firelands when HOT 5mans were giving you same 378 gear with much less effort and single queue button? Sure there will be raid finder gear but:
1) RF comes out later
2) RF gear ilvl wont be so high that it will outclass normal upgraded / heroic T14 gear
3) RF has really shitty drop rate, after seven TES LFR clears I'm yet to see an item from it

Only bad thing coming out of this - players that resub or just start out will have VERY hard time to find a guild for progression because they will all demand 490-500 ilvl even for tier 14 raids, let alone tier 15. Pugs on my server already demand 485-490.

[Duster505]

Alot of people enjoy Pet Battles though.

But they have nothing to do with trinity based progression system. Its that extra that ppl can and probably would do if they were not spending most of their time beeing forced into doing other stuff if they want to progress further than LFR difficulty of raid content.

[Zeek Daniels]

New Dungeons are one of the few PvE aspects I've always been looking forward to. Yes it's mostly 1-2 per patch but running them and getting the achievments was usually something I enjoyed. Now they don't even bother to do that anymore, they're getting neglected in favour of their crappy scenarios whom I in all honesty despise since I have to dps instead of heal.

What would be the point of putting in a new dungeon when theirs no new gear tier? Dungeons in the past have helped with getting to the next tier of gear for players who come into the game and are behind in content. Now blizz could introduce new dailys with new sets of gear but seeing how everyone hates the amount of dailys they have been doing i dont see blizz adding 3 or 4 factions in 5.2 but more like 1 or 2.

You need to look at 5.1 as an extension of 5.0, In a sense its a way keeping content coming in without actual progression. Most ppl who Raid dont need to do the new dailys because they already have the gear, while others see those new dailies as a way to PvP.

[esoterickk]

Tiered dungeons is bad and it becomes boring and repetitive very quickly.

Especially with a large raid coming in, keeping the progression path from dungeons -> raids -> higher tier raids is a better choice than new dungeons -> high tier raids and skip all other content.

For everything else, there's valor points.

[Duster505]

TBC was a pretty different story with 15 (fifteen!) dungeons at launch, then 16th added very late in the expac. Now we have 9 heroic dungeons, some of them are revamps of old and well known 5mans.

But I kinda like this approach, no new 5mans mean no free gear for people to completely skip tier 14 when 15 is out. Why would anyone run Firelands when HOT 5mans were giving you same 378 gear with much less effort and single queue button? Sure there will be raid finder gear but:
1) RF comes out later
2) RF gear ilvl wont be so high that it will outclass normal upgraded / heroic T14 gear
3) RF has really shitty drop rate, after seven TES LFR clears I'm yet to see an item from it

Only bad thing coming out of this - players that resub or just start out will have VERY hard time to find a guild for progression because they will all demand 490-500 ilvl even for tier 14 raids, let alone tier 15. Pugs on my server already demand 485-490.

I can promise you that 1 new dungeon per month in WOW would keep more players paying their subs than allowing them to do LFR in first 2-4 weeks of new raid tier. BLizzard has just desided to go for a very bad item progression model in the last 3 expansions instead of focusing on really good content to keep ppl interested. The LFR is the last straw cause ppl have no real reason to bother with playing the game after they have seen all the raid content. And those players will again feel entitled to do the next LFR tier in utterly crappy gear cause they unsubed after first month of T14.

[hakujinbakasama]

Im sorry but if the goal is to let every moron see the raid content in first or second week in LFR - then you have also taken away pretty much every reason for those same ppl to play the game for the next 6 months till the next tier. There are multiple ways how to improve the item progression lvl (like adding new dungeons every month) so that ppl that are not doing it hardcore can do it in that 4-5 month period before the next one. Just because making 3 copies of the same raid is the cheapest way does not in any way mean its the best way to retain subs.

I'm not really disagreeing with you. I'm merely trying to establish that 1 choice doesn't make everything better both for the player base and or Blizzard's paychecks.

I've made a lot of hostile posts of how there is a ton of content in the game that Blizzard only pays attention to when people attack them for having so little end game content. At the same time, Blizzard also does nothing about making sure that content is evenly available and or constantly updated. Fuck all, the adding of pets to old raid bosses was a decent idea even if it was a few years too late, but ruining the ability for all classes to have an equal go at it was pretty fucking stupid in my opinion.

What I'm getting at is that there is a lot complexity to the current issue and what's probably a better fix is updating the loot system and creating more in game out of raid/bg solutions to keep people playing.

I never wanted an LFR system after I saw how much LFD destroyed an entire aspect of this game.

[Duster505]

What would be the point of putting in a new dungeon when theirs no new gear tier? Dungeons in the past have helped with getting to the next tier of gear for players who come into the game and are behind in content. Now blizz could introduce new dailys with new sets of gear but seeing how everyone hates the amount of dailys they have been doing i dont see blizz adding 3 or 4 factions in 5.2 but more like 1 or 2.

You need to look at 5.1 as an extension of 5.0, In a sense its a way keeping content coming in without actual progression. Most ppl who Raid dont need to do the new dailys because they already have the gear, while others see those new dailies as a way to PvP.

The point of new dungeon would to get new gear into the game. Higher item lvl gear that at the same time would lower the need to nerf every encounter 2-3 months after new tier is added. Thats why 1 new dungeon per month would solve the real issue of this game. It would keep ppl interested in playing (new challengemodes as well) and push them towards becoming better players to do the raid content.

Moving the goal posts on top of your toes like LFR is doing does not help the game in any way. It just makes it worse than ever.

---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 09:48 PM ----------

I'm not really disagreeing with you. I'm merely trying to establish that 1 choice doesn't make everything better both for the player base and or Blizzard's paychecks.

I've made a lot of hostile posts of how there is a ton of content in the game that Blizzard only pays attention to when people attack them for having so little end game content. At the same time, Blizzard also does nothing about making sure that content is evenly available and or constantly updated. Fuck all, the adding of pets to old raid bosses was a decent idea even if it was a few years too late, but ruining the ability for all classes to have an equal go at it was pretty fucking stupid in my opinion.

What I'm getting at is that there is a lot complexity to the current issue and what's probably a better fix is updating the loot system and creating more in game out of raid/bg solutions to keep people playing.

I never wanted an LFR system after I saw how much LFD destroyed an entire aspect of this game.

I find LFD to be acceptable IF there were new dungeons coming in regularly. Change those dam scenarios into dungeons and I would be happy. The big issue with the game atm is that Blizzard is trying to counter GW2 by providing stuff for DPS players to do (none holy trinity content). At the same time those players that like to be the other 2 trinity roles (tank and healer) are left totally stranded in the game. By having a solid source of 5 man content coming with every content patch - those players would maybe not be leaving the game now. Im out. I loved playing a multirole tank and healer and do dungeons - even in LFD. At least that involves teamwork and abit of social interaction. Daily quests dont do that.. and neither do scenarios to any degree to what dungeons can do with trinity roles.

The thing is - the current item progression system in WOW is broken. It has been broken for many years since Blizzard has been nerfing raiding content by 30% to allow ppl to do it. They say that new ilvl upgrade system will fix that.. but that system also destroyes the viability of multirole classes in the game. They loose much much more than they gain.

The focus of a sub based MMO game should NOT be about sending out content every 6 months. It should be about offering new content every month - like one new dungeon with new and interesting encounters that would at the same time raise the ilvl of every character abit to make them more viable doing raids.

[Maleric]

Ye - I can accept WOTLK format... as long as we dont have LFR to totally destroy the real feel of progression and story in the game. LFR is just horrendously bad way to retain subs. It gives players the feeling that they have done it all - and when this happens few weeks into new raid tier -then its doing more bad than good.

If you have time to get sick of LFR in the first two weeks of a raid tier, maybe you should try normal/heroic mode raids?

[Crashdummy]

I wasn't aware that when you specced heals they took away every damage dealing ability you had.

You are kidding right? Unless you are an attonement priest or some shit like that, healers do almost no damage.

You havent played a max level healer in MoP, right?

You have very little damaging abilities, all doing very little damage.

---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 06:55 PM ----------

You are implying that they won't have any other way of getting gear in 5.2,which we don't know yet.In fact, i think complains like this should only be made when we know completely what is going to happen in the patch.Otherwise,what anyone says today might be pointless tomorrow

We already know what we will get (new dailies, scenarios and raid), and waiting untill the patch is done means its already too late.