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  1. #1

    Should Honor gains be overhauled?

    As we speak, Battleground are overridden with bots. BGs award honor for everyone in them for a win, and you only need to be near someone else when they get a kill to get credit and honor for it. The prevalence of bots can largely be attributed by the fact that you don't need to do anything to be showered with rewards. Given that new bots will be made to circumvent any security measures that Blizzard puts in place, it seems like there is a case to be made that maybe the whole system needs an overhaul so that a simple bot can't gain honor through it.

    Should BGs and honor gains in general be overhauled to be dependent on what you, yourself, have done? Would this fix bot issues? How would you recommend adding in performance-issued honor gains?
    Last edited by Eats Compost; 2012-12-27 at 04:30 PM.

  2. #2
    Brewmaster Agile Emily's Avatar
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    EDIT: Aww, you took the fun out of my post.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Agile Emily View Post
    EDIT: Aww, you took the fun out of my post.
    Beat you to it, sorry.

  4. #4
    Sure, right after they increase HP gain by 500% to account for those retarded item upgrades.

  5. #5
    I hate to refer to Star Wars but when talking about PVP, I do it quite often in the last few days, so I will do it now too.

    SWTOR had a quite interessting PVP Rewardsystem for there Warzones in which you would get some Commendations (Honor-Equivalent) for winning (or losing for that matter) and more for some achievements you get while playing it, like dealing x damage or healing, for killing blows and one on one fights. The more interessting ones here though were the attacking and defending Points. Those you can only get by doing an offensive Warzonespecific thing like tapping a base (everyone near the one doing it gains the points) or for defending something (defending a Flag yields defensive points over time).

    I think it is overdue for blizz to introduce something similar to there Warzones.

    Also a nice thing was that you could rate the other players in your group according to there performance, doing so will grant them additional commendations for every vote they have gotten.

  6. #6
    I really don't think this is so much of a problem that it warrants an actual overhaul of the game design instead of simple punitive measures.

  7. #7
    Pit Lord Bryntrollian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illiterate View Post
    Sure, right after they increase HP gain by 500% to account for those retarded item upgrades.
    What seems to be the problem with the item upgrades ?
    Synek - best rogue in the world
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    I don't think I know what the acronym "tsg" is. It's not RBG's or Arena, random battlegrounds, or any form of dungeon or raid that I can think of. What does it mean?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryntrollian View Post
    What seems to be the problem with the item upgrades ?
    Not only do you need to grind out a full set for every alt, you need to grind out yet another set's worth of Honor almost to bring it up to the standard that everyone else is at.

    It only gets worse when you consider rerolling mid-season in Arena/RBGs where you CANNOT get enough CP to fully upgrade a single set of gear to be on par with those who have.

    And yes. I've always wanted Honor gains in BGs to be based around the objectives. People who grind in mid don't farm Honor, they farm kills. They'll still farm mid regardless. It's always been frustrating to see myself lowest on the honor gain (after taking into account daily win/loss bonus gain) for defending the fc/bases.
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  9. #9
    The honor gain is the way it is because you don't lose anything from being a healer. And also, you generally gain more honor if you try and do the objective.

    A good bot can do a players rotation better than they can, so basing it on damage wont achieve anything.

    Classes with executes (Warriors, Rets, DestroLocks, Spriest) will get more killing blows than classes without. So you can't use killing blows.


    There is almost no way to have a system where healers and objective-based players are rewarded and bots are penalized.

  10. #10
    The award system should be based on overall performance. Something like a total contribution with different weights in each category of:

    - Damage done
    - Healing done
    - HKs
    - Bases/flags capped; demos destroyed
    - Killing blows
    - etc.

    Each weight would be based on the type of spec/BG.

    I think GW2 has somewhat of a similar system. Just because you outperform your team and the opposing team in almost every category, but still lose the game doesn't mean you should be punished with the losing honor and zero CP reward. Although this does punish those lesser gear, but it also forces the player to try harder than just AFK-defend the farm with 5 others.

  11. #11
    I have something like this in mind

    Winning a BG: 40 Points
    Losing: 5 Points
    Getting a Killing Blow: 5 Points
    Getting 10 Killing Blows: 10 Points
    Dealing x Amount of damage: 20 Points
    Dealing even more: another 20 Points
    Winning without dying once: 15 Points
    30 HKs: 10 Points
    Dealing x amount of healing: 20 Points
    doing even more healing: another 20 Points
    Attacking Action done (Being nearby while doing so counts towards it) like flagtapping, demodestruction etc: Varies for BGs, 10 to 35
    Defending Action done (Retapping, taking back flags, secure towers and gates after winning etc): Varies for BGs, 10 to 35

    That way, people are able to gather Honorpoints according to how well they do play there classes and to how good they have understood how to play BGs together with there Teammates. Zerglings who keep rushing and do something not helpfull will end up gaining much less honorpoints than those who actually play the BGs the right way.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    The prevalence of bots can largely be attributed by the fact that you don't need to do anything to be showered with rewards.
    All your points are full of air becouse you've no knowledge about bots and simply bash on them as a simple leechers whille it's not true. Almost every boter now is using "won't name it here" bot for 20 euro that supports not only custom profiles (aka when, where to run and what to do), but also custom combat routines (aka when to press what again whom). Botting community is actually pretty developed atm so there're loads of modifications around. To put you simple facts:
    1. My bot moonkin tops every 2d BG dmg wise, cyclones healers, roots into solar beam and guards flags in stealth if he's the only one left on node.
    2. I know rogue combat routine that knows how to escape, bursts the best way possible during opener or SD, blinds healers, saps, keeps SnD for energy regen etc.

    So what're your suggestions if my bots perform better then average ppls? And what about healers - there's no killing blows going their way, they perform their role simply by being with the crowd (like every 2d bot tries to do). Award them honor for healing done? So better geared healers get more honor then worse geared? Besides it's easier to code decent combat routine for healer then for DPS.

    So all in all your point is mute and ignores the core problem - honor system itself that is a 30 rl hrs timesink to enter arenas and RBGs. Also random BGs are here since vanilla and many longtime players are feeling like womiting just thinking of another round of mindless honor farm (in RBGs you at least try to coordinate, althought i can't stand them either). Blizz simply added to the fire with extra 1500 honor sink / item slot with upgrade system, almost doubling honor grind.

  13. #13
    and again some1 thinks you can implent a performance based someting in the game in a few days......

  14. #14
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    Honestly, I think a change like that would be too punitive on those who try to do the right thing and actually play their characters. It's unfortunate, but true.

    I would, however, be in favour of Blizzard banning: Accounts, e-mails registered to those accounts, payment methods used at any point in history on those accounts, as well as any personal information tied to the account setting off a red flag in their system, so if the player ever made another account that would be banned by their accounts staff, as well. I know they're trying to attack the source, the creators of the bots, but it's those who actually use the bots that are harming the game and should face very harsh punitive measures to discourage them from using the software.

    Blizzard needs to take the kid gloves off with cheaters. I know that a few people would still manage to get around it, by changing their card/payment details or personal information, but it'd knock out a lot of thoughtless individuals who just use bots because they're lazy. For a lot of these cheaters, the prospect of having their account banned, as well as the possibility of ever playing the game again denied them, wouldn't be worth the risk. They're ruining the game for us, it's time for Blizzard to ruin the game for them. Temporary bans are not good enough, jump straight to permanent bans on the first offence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daetur View Post
    Stop trying to make Siege happen, Siege is never going to happen.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Inahu View Post
    I would, however, be in favour of Blizzard banning: Accounts, e-mails registered to those accounts, payment methods used at any point in history on those accounts, as well as any personal information tied to the account setting off a red flag in their system, so if the player ever made another account that would be banned by their accounts staff, as well. I know they're trying to attack the source, the creators of the bots, but it's those who actually use the bots that are harming the game and should face very harsh punitive measures to discourage them from using the software.

    Out of curisoity (and slightly offtopic, but in response to your comment) how would banning the payment method help? One most people that bot can just use prepaid cards, fake names and have access to infinite email address creations. Secondly, your idea would hurt those that botted a long time ago and decide to start fresh without having any botting issues.

    I knew people who botted in Vanilla and got banned, but started right back up and haven't botted since then. According to your idea they should never be allowed to play again.

  16. #16
    Definitely not. Team-based gameplay should never be individually awarded. Nobody would bother protecting their FC becuase they would be in middle constantly farming kills just to get additional credit. If the rewards were based on objectives it wouldn't work becuase everybody can't cap a base/flag, however they can all help someone do it but what's the point if they don't get anything from it?

    Upgrades increased the amount of bots in battlegrounds. I personally enjoy playing them but many don't, so it's partially their own fault for "encouraging" botting even more.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 04:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Skulljin View Post
    I have something like this in mind

    Winning a BG: 40 Points
    Losing: 5 Points
    Getting a Killing Blow: 5 Points
    Getting 10 Killing Blows: 10 Points
    Dealing x Amount of damage: 20 Points
    Dealing even more: another 20 Points
    Winning without dying once: 15 Points
    30 HKs: 10 Points
    Dealing x amount of healing: 20 Points
    doing even more healing: another 20 Points
    Attacking Action done (Being nearby while doing so counts towards it) like flagtapping, demodestruction etc: Varies for BGs, 10 to 35
    Defending Action done (Retapping, taking back flags, secure towers and gates after winning etc): Varies for BGs, 10 to 35

    That way, people are able to gather Honorpoints according to how well they do play there classes and to how good they have understood how to play BGs together with there Teammates. Zerglings who keep rushing and do something not helpfull will end up gaining much less honorpoints than those who actually play the BGs the right way.
    I'm very glad you're not a developer.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 04:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by schizocaria View Post
    The award system should be based on overall performance. Something like a total contribution with different weights in each category of:

    - Damage done
    - Healing done
    - HKs
    - Bases/flags capped; demos destroyed
    - Killing blows
    - etc.

    Each weight would be based on the type of spec/BG.

    I think GW2 has somewhat of a similar system. Just because you outperform your team and the opposing team in almost every category, but still lose the game doesn't mean you should be punished with the losing honor and zero CP reward. Although this does punish those lesser gear, but it also forces the player to try harder than just AFK-defend the farm with 5 others.
    Yeah everyone standing in a ring spamming dps and healing to get most hps, dps and kills.

  17. #17
    1. Bots these days actually do shit. Its most obvious in IOC. You will see ~10 ppl stay in the base for about 30 secs, then all follow the same path and go to the same location. Its plain as hell to see they are a bot, but after that they will go fight things, use abilities, cap nodes, etc. Ive seen a bot go 13/0.

    2. All these ideas will just mean that in every single BG there will just be one giant zerg. No holding bases, no strat, just run around and zerg shit the whole time. No thanks.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Inahu View Post
    I would, however, be in favour of Blizzard banning: Accounts, e-mails registered to those accounts, payment methods used at any point in history on those accounts, as well as any personal information tied to the account setting off a red flag in their system, so if the player ever made another account that would be banned by their accounts staff, as well.
    You aren't runing a business, are you? You aren't strong in legal aspects too becouse every blizz game is a separate product and every game i buy from them have a different user agreement. I'll just say that anti-bot crusade you're suggesting won't happen (even in WoW only), it's too costly for Blizz.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulljin View Post
    I hate to refer to Star Wars but when talking about PVP, I do it quite often in the last few days, so I will do it now too.

    SWTOR had a quite interessting PVP Rewardsystem for there Warzones in which you would get some Commendations (Honor-Equivalent) for winning (or losing for that matter) and more for some achievements you get while playing it, like dealing x damage or healing, for killing blows and one on one fights. The more interessting ones here though were the attacking and defending Points. Those you can only get by doing an offensive Warzonespecific thing like tapping a base (everyone near the one doing it gains the points) or for defending something (defending a Flag yields defensive points over time).

    I think it is overdue for blizz to introduce something similar to there Warzones.

    Also a nice thing was that you could rate the other players in your group according to there performance, doing so will grant them additional commendations for every vote they have gotten.
    This.
    Though its worth noting you can get each medal only once.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    Out of curisoity (and slightly offtopic, but in response to your comment) how would banning the payment method help? One most people that bot can just use prepaid cards, fake names and have access to infinite email address creations. Secondly, your idea would hurt those that botted a long time ago and decide to start fresh without having any botting issues.

    I knew people who botted in Vanilla and got banned, but started right back up and haven't botted since then. According to your idea they should never be allowed to play again.
    It might or might not help. In any event, it's another piece of information that can be used to identify a cheater. On the whole pre-paid card issue, that's one thing I've thought should be dumped for quite a while, but for a completely different reason (it's another method for people under 18 to play the game, and I'd just rather they didn't).

    And yes, that is exactly my idea. I honestly wouldn't care if your friends were banned in Vanilla and could never play again. I wouldn't care if my friends were banned and could never play again if they cheated in an MMORPG, moreso if it was something they agreed not to do when they signed up.

    Honestly, I've cheated in video games before. Single-player offline video games where my score or performance isn't submitted to any sort of scoreboard. If you're cheating in an online game, or a game where your scores obtained through cheating are being submitted against those who played fairly, you deserve everything that you get for the negative impact you make on others' experience in that game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyaldee View Post
    You aren't runing a business, are you? You aren't strong in legal aspects too becouse every blizz game is a separate product and every game i buy from them have a different user agreement. I'll just say that anti-bot crusade you're suggesting won't happen (even in WoW only), it's too costly for Blizz.
    Blizzard already retains the right to terminate your access to their accounts at any time, for any or no reason, with or without notice. I know more about what you clumsily described as "legal aspects" than you might suspect, or know yourself (as I suspect), though I must admit I'm not intimately aware of the minutiae of Blizzard's ToS/EULA structure at different levels (such as battle.net account, WoW service, Starcraft service, etc).

    The only way in which it would be costly to Blizzard is that they would not continue to earn subscription fees from banned accounts. They reserve the right to ban those accounts right after the monthly subscription payment goes through, although that'd be perhaps a little too shrewd.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daetur View Post
    Stop trying to make Siege happen, Siege is never going to happen.

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